Posts by Cassius

Also Bryan thanks for posting that reminder of the purpose of the thread.

I agree it's very important for everyone (and not just for purposes of our book review) to have a working knowledge of the basic assertions of Timaeus.

This is the source (or part of the source) of the story of Atlantis, so it's interesting for lots of reasons.

A first start would be an outline of the basic topics covered in it. Jowett's introduction is far too long to serve as a general introduction to tell us what to expect is relevant to Epicurus. Anyone have a topical outline of the subjects? We need to develop one from an Epicurean perspective.

Timaeus

www.gutenberg.org

Quote from Bryan

For Epíkouros the closest we have to a realm of (1) what always is, is the whole natures (ὅλαι φύσεις) of the atoms and the void,

Bryan it seems like lately I came across in Lucretius a list of three things with unchanging natures, and the list was atoms, void, and something to the effect of "the universe as a whole." It struck me at the time that that would be an important cite to remember so of course I've forgotten it, but I will see if I can find it.

Not that it's necessarily super important, but it seems to go with your observation.

UPDATE: I think this is what I was remembering:

Lucretius Book 3 around 806 (Bailey) (I added the 1, 2, and 3)

Moreover, if ever things abide for everlasting, it must needs be either that, (1) because they are of solid body, they beat back assaults, nor suffer anything to come within them which might unloose the close-locked parts within, such as are the bodies of matter whose nature we have declared before; or (2) that they are able to continue throughout all time, because they are exempt from blows, as is the void, which abides untouched, nor suffers a whit from assault; or (3) else because there is no supply of room all around, into which, as it were, things might part asunder and be broken up—even as the sum of sums is eternal—nor is there any room without into which they may scatter, nor are there bodies which might fall upon them and break them up with stout blow.

Kalosyni I think we need to encourage more people to develop handouts. Do we have a section on the forum devoted to Handouts or Brochures? If not, let's set one up somewhere under "Activism" thanks!

Additional from Marcus Aurelius, Diogenes Laertius Book VII (on Zeno of Citium), and Seneca:

Marcus Aurelius, Book IV: 16. Within ten days thou wilt seem a god to those to whom thou art now a beast and an ape, if thou wilt return to thy principles and the worship of reason.

Marcus Aurelius, Book I: 8. From Apollonius I learned freedom of will and undeviating steadiness of purpose; and to look to nothing else, not even for a moment, except to reason….

Marcus Aurelius - In the constitution of the rational animal I see no virtue which is opposed to justice; but I see a virtue which is opposed to love of pleasure, and that is temperance.

Diogenes Laertius, Life of Zeno: 100. The reason why they characterize the perfect good as beautiful is that it has in full all the "factors" required by nature or has perfect proportion. Of the beautiful there are (say they) four species, namely, what is just, courageous, orderly and wise; for it is under these forms that fair deeds are accomplished. Similarly there are four species of the base or ugly, namely, what is unjust, cowardly, disorderly, and unwise. By the beautiful is meant properly and in an unique sense that good which renders its possessors praiseworthy, or briefly, good which is worthy of praise; though in another sense it signifies a good aptitude for one's proper function; while in yet another sense the beautiful is that which lends new grace to anything, as when we say of the wise man that he alone is good and beautiful. 101. And they say that only the morally beautiful is good. So Hecato in his treatise On Goods, book iii., and Chrysippus in his work On the Morally Beautiful. They hold, that is, that virtue and whatever partakes of virtue consists in this: which is equivalent to saying that all that is good is beautiful, or that the term "good" has equal force with the term "beautiful," which comes to the same thing. "Since a thing is good, it is beautiful; now it is beautiful, therefore it is good." They hold that all goods are equal and that all good is desirable in the highest degree and admits of no lowering or heightening of intensity. Of things that are, some, they say, are good, some are evil, and some neither good nor evil (that is, morally indifferent).

And Athenaeus the epigrammatist speaks of all the Stoics in common as follows:[22] O ye who’ve learnt the doctrines of the Porch And have committed to your books divine The best of human learning, teaching men That the mind’s virtue is the only good! She only it is who keeps the lives of men And cities, – safer than high gates and walls. But those who place their happiness in pleasure Are led by the least worthy of the Muses. Diogenes Laertius Book VII

Goods comprise the virtues of prudence, justice, courage, temperance, and the rest; while the opposites of these are evils, namely, folly, injustice, and the rest. Neutral (neither good nor evil, that is) are all those things which neither benefit nor harm a man: such as life, health, pleasure, beauty, strength, wealth, fair fame and noble birth, and their opposites, death, disease, pain, ugliness, weakness, poverty, ignominy, low birth, and the like. Diogenes Laertius Book VII

Pleasure is an irrational elation at the accruing of what seems to be choiceworthy; and under it are ranged ravishment, malevolent joy, delight, transport. Ravishment is pleasure which charms the ear. Malevolent joy is pleasure at another’s ills. Delight is the mind’s propulsion to weakness, its name in Greek (τέρψις) being akin to τρέψις or turning. To be in transports of delight is the melting away of virtue. Diogenes Laertius Book VII

“And yet what reason is there that he should provide a living? For if it be to support life, life itself is after all a thing indifferent. If it be for pleasure, pleasure too is a thing indifferent. While if it be for virtue, virtue in itself is sufficient to constitute happiness. Diogenes Laertius Book VII

Seneca’s Letters – To Lucilius – 66.45: “What can be added to that which is perfect? Nothing otherwise that was not perfect to which something has been added. Nor can anything be added to virtue, either, for if anything can be added thereto, it must have contained a defect. Honour, also, permits of no addition; for it is honourable because of the very qualities which I have mentioned.[5] What then? Do you think that propriety, justice, lawfulness, do not also belong to the same type, and that they are kept within fixed limits? The ability to increase is proof that a thing is still imperfect.

In the process of putting together this episode I listened to Joshua's presentation several times, and i want to repeat how good I think it is. If you missed it on the livestream, be sure you catch this podcast version. it's a very deep subject, and to some extent it's easier to absorb if you focus on loistening to what is being said in the quotations, especially to those from Plato and from Lincoln near the end of the episodes. Joshua as talked about some of these themes in the past but I think this presentation brings them together in a way that really drives them home. So thanks again Joshua!

Great work Al-Hakiim!

Welcome Singleton! Glad to have you with us after a familiar path!

Episode 265 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available: "The Deep-Set Boundary Stone - Epicurus and The Perils of Applying the Principles of Geometry to Ethical Philosophy.". This episode features a presentation by Joshua.

For a slideshow version of this talk, click the "Featured Videos" link on our home page.

In the introduction to today's video I mention this episode from Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" series:

Thread

Carl Sagan's Cosmos Episode Seven "Backbone of the Night" - Good Summary of Problems with Plato

If you have not seen this episode of Cosmos, this one - Episode Seven - has a great deal of good material that is supportive of the general Epicurean position and very critical of Pythagorean and Platonic idealism. It has been a long time since I watched it and if someone watches it again it would be good if we could make note of some time stamps in the thread below. I seem to remember that Sagan talks approvingly of Democritus but may largely skip over Epicurus, but this is from distant…

Cassius

January 24, 2023 at 6:57 PM

Welcome to Episode 265 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we have a special episode in which our podcaster co-host Joshua will give a talk entitled "The Deep-Set Boundary Stone - Epicurus and The Perils of Applying the Principles of Geometry to Ethical Philosophy." This talk was given on January 19, 2025, as part of our first EpicureanFriends Livestream. We'll link the slideshow presentation in the show notes to this episode, but you can view it anytime at EpicureanFriends.com by clicking on the "Featured Videos" link at the top of our website.

Next week we'll be back with a regular Lucretius Today episode. Until then, enjoy Joshua on the topic "The Deep-Set Boundary Stone - Epicurus and The Perils of Applying the Principles of Geometry to Ethical Philosophy."

Welcome JamesPConnolly

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

Please check out our Getting Started page.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Both Plato and Aristotle, two of the most influential philosophers in Western thought, placed great emphasis on virtue as central to a good and flourishing life. While their approaches to virtue differ, they both argued that virtue is essential for achieving eudaimonia (happiness or flourishing). Below are some of their most famous quotes in support of virtue being the highest good.

Plato on Virtue

Plato, through the voice of Socrates in his dialogues, often explores the nature of virtue (aretē) and its role in achieving a just and harmonious soul.

1. Virtue as the Health of the Soul

Quote

"Virtue is the health and beauty and well-being of the soul, and vice is the disease and weakness and deformity of the soul."
— Republic, Book 4 (444e)

2. Virtue and Knowledge

Quote

"No one does wrong willingly. Evil is the result of ignorance. If people knew what was right, they would do it."
— Protagoras (352c)

3. The Importance of Virtue

Quote

"The most important thing is not life, but the good life."
— Crito (48b)

4. Virtue as the Highest Good

Quote

"The good is the end of all endeavor, the object on which every heart is set."
— Republic, Book 7 (505e)

5. Virtue and Justice

Quote

"Justice is the excellence of the soul, and injustice is the defect of the soul."
— Republic, Book 1 (353e)

Aristotle on Virtue

Aristotle, in his Nicomachean Ethics, provides a systematic account of virtue (aretē) as the mean between extremes and the foundation of a flourishing life.

1. Virtue as the Highest Good

Quote

"Happiness is an activity of the soul in accordance with virtue."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1098a)

2. Virtue as a Habit

Quote

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 2 (1103a)

3. The Golden Mean

Quote

"Virtue is a mean between two vices, one of excess and one of deficiency."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 2 (1106b)

4. Virtue and Reason

Quote

"The function of man is to live a certain kind of life, and this activity implies a rational principle, and the function of a good man is the good and noble performance of these."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1098a)

5. Virtue and Happiness

Quote

"Happiness depends on ourselves, and it is achieved through virtue, which is a state of character concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1106b)

6. The Role of Virtue in a Flourishing Life

Quote

"The good for man is an activity of the soul in accordance with virtue, and if there are many virtues, in accordance with the best and most complete."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1098a)

Key Differences Between Plato and Aristotle

• Plato: Virtue is closely tied to knowledge and the harmony of the soul. In the Republic, he argues that a just soul, governed by reason, is the key to happiness.
• Aristotle: Virtue is a habit developed through practice and lies in finding the "golden mean" between extremes. He emphasizes that virtue is not just theoretical but must be lived through action.

Summary

Both Plato and Aristotle agree that virtue is the highest good and essential for a flourishing life. Plato focuses on the harmony of the soul and the role of knowledge in achieving virtue, while Aristotle emphasizes the practical development of virtuous habits and the importance of reason in guiding ethical behavior.

If you'd like to explore these ideas further, I recommend reading:

• Plato’s Republic and Meno
• Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics

Let me know if you'd like more quotes or insights!

I'll combine that with this from ChatGPT;

Here are some notable quotes from ancient Stoics that support the idea of virtue as the highest good:

1. Marcus Aurelius:
   • "If it is not right, do not do it. If it is not true, do not say it." (Meditations, Book XII, 17)
   • This reflects the Stoic emphasis on virtue as the guiding principle for action and speech, aligning behavior with moral integrity.
2. Epictetus:
   • "Virtue consists in a will which is in agreement with Nature." (Discourses, 1.4.11)
   • For Epictetus, aligning one’s will with nature and reason (the Stoic ideal) is the essence of virtue and the highest good.
3. Seneca:
   • "Virtue is nothing else than right reason." (Letters to Lucilius, 66.32)
   • This statement underscores the Stoic belief that living in accordance with reason and acting virtuously are inseparable.
4. Cicero (a Roman statesman influenced by Stoicism):
   • "The good life is not possible without virtue, and virtue itself is sufficient for happiness." (De Finibus Bonorum et Malorum, Book III)
   • Cicero emphasizes the Stoic principle that virtue alone is both necessary and sufficient for achieving true happiness.
5. Zeno of Citium (founder of Stoicism):
   • "Happiness is a good flow of life, and this can only be achieved through the possession of virtue." (Fragment cited by Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, VII.88)
   • Zeno defines happiness as living in accordance with nature and virtue, highlighting the centrality of virtue to the Stoic conception of the good life.

These quotes illustrate the Stoic doctrine that virtue is the ultimate good, and other aspects of life (such as health, wealth, or pleasure) are secondary or indifferent in comparison.

Here are some significant quotes from Plato and Aristotle that emphasize virtue as the highest good:

Plato

1. "The soul of the man who lives justly and who is dear to the gods is in the best condition."
   • (The Republic, Book X, 613a)
   • Plato connects justice, a core virtue, to the ultimate well-being of the soul, suggesting that virtue leads to the highest good.
2. "Virtue does not spring from riches, but riches and all other human goods, both private and public, from virtue."
   • (The Apology, 30b)
   • In this statement, Socrates (as Plato's mouthpiece) argues that virtue is the source of all good things, prioritizing it above material wealth and worldly pursuits.
3. "The life which is unexamined is not worth living."
   • (The Apology, 38a)
   • While not directly about virtue, this emphasizes the need for self-reflection and pursuit of wisdom, which Plato associates with living virtuously and achieving the highest form of good.

Aristotle

1. "Happiness is an activity of the soul in accordance with perfect virtue."
   • (Nicomachean Ethics, Book I, 1098a16-17)
   • Aristotle defines happiness (eudaimonia), the highest human good, as the practice of virtue in accordance with reason over a complete life.
2. "The good for man is an activity of the soul in conformity with excellence or virtue."
   • (Nicomachean Ethics, Book I, 1098a7-8)
   • Aristotle ties the highest good to actions performed in line with virtue, emphasizing that virtue is essential for achieving the good life.
3. "Moral virtue comes about as a result of habit."
   • (Nicomachean Ethics, Book II, 1103a14)
   • Here, Aristotle highlights that virtue is cultivated through habitual practice, making it the foundation of ethical behavior and a life well-lived.
4. "The best good is happiness, and this is achieved through a life of virtue in accordance with reason."
   • (Nicomachean Ethics, Book X, 1177a12-18)
   • Aristotle argues that human flourishing depends on living virtuously, guided by reason, as the ultimate good.

Both philosophers affirm that virtue is fundamental to achieving the highest good, though Plato views it as a harmony of the soul aligned with the Forms, while Aristotle frames it as the practical realization of reason in human life.

Using Deepseek here is a preliminary list. I doubt this is by any means the best, but it is a good list of names:

The Stoics, a school of Hellenistic philosophy, firmly believed that virtue (moral excellence) is the highest good and the key to a flourishing life. They argued that virtue is sufficient for happiness and that external things like wealth, fame, and pleasure are indifferent. Below are some of the most famous quotes from ancient Stoics in support of virtue being the highest good:

1. Marcus Aurelius

Marcus Aurelius, the Roman Emperor and Stoic philosopher, emphasized the importance of virtue in his personal writings, Meditations.

Quote

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
— Meditations, Book 10

Quote

"The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts: therefore, guard accordingly, and take care that you entertain no notions unsuitable to virtue and reasonable nature."
— Meditations, Book 5

Quote

"Just that you do the right thing. The rest doesn’t matter."
— Meditations, Book 12

2. Epictetus

Epictetus, a former slave turned Stoic teacher, focused on the importance of aligning one's will with virtue and reason.

Quote

"First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do."
— Discourses, Book 3

Quote

"Virtue is the only good. There is no other good, neither early nor late, neither great nor small, neither in the living nor in the dead."
— Discourses, Book 2

Quote

"Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants."
— Discourses, Book 2

3. Seneca

Seneca, the Roman Stoic philosopher and statesman, wrote extensively about the importance of virtue and the dangers of vice.

Quote

"Virtue is nothing else than right reason."
— Letters to Lucilius, Letter 66

Quote

"The greatest good is virtue; the next, liberty; the third and last, the necessaries of life."
— Letters to Lucilius, Letter 74

Quote

"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."
— Letters to Lucilius, Letter 2

4. Zeno of Citium

Zeno of Citium, the founder of Stoicism, laid the groundwork for the Stoic emphasis on virtue.

Quote

"Happiness is a good flow of life."
— Zeno (as reported by Diogenes Laërtius)

Quote

"The goal of life is living in agreement with nature, and virtue is the harmony between the will and nature."
— Zeno (paraphrased from Stoic teachings)

5. Cleanthes

Cleanthes, the second head of the Stoic school, reinforced the idea that virtue is the only true good.

Quote

"Lead me, Zeus, and you too, Destiny, to wherever your decrees have assigned me. I follow readily, but if I choose not, wretched as I will be, I must follow still."
— Hymn to Zeus

6. Musonius Rufus

Musonius Rufus, a Roman Stoic philosopher, emphasized the practical application of virtue in daily life.

Quote

"Virtue is not only an ability but also a disposition to act in accordance with reason."
— Lectures, Lecture 1

Quote

"The human being is born with an inclination toward virtue."
— Lectures, Lecture 2

Summary

The Stoics consistently taught that virtue is the highest good and the foundation of a good life. Virtue, for them, meant living in accordance with reason, nature, and moral excellence. External goods like wealth, health, and fame were considered "indifferents"—neither good nor bad in themselves, but only in how they are used.

If you'd like to explore these ideas further, I recommend reading:

• Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
• Discourses and Enchiridion by Epictetus
• Letters to Lucilius by Seneca

I presume that the pro-virtue argument is stated succinctly by Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus as well, so if anyone knows particularly pithy citations to parts of their work that we should consider including as well, please post.

To repeat, Matteng, this post is very helpful. We have some sickness that is going to cause us to delay this episode for a week. That will give us time to take up this suggestion, and address the major arguments that Stoics and Platonists make for this position.

If anyone has other specific "virtue-is-in-itself-the-highest-good" arguments let us know and we'll try to include them - even if it takes us more than one episode to do so.

This is no doubt one of the most profound division points of all, so it will be good to cover it is strongly as we can.

Thank you Matteng!

Welcome Singleton !

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

Please check out our Getting Started page.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

A discussion guide for the Epicurean sections of Tusculan Disputations is here:

Thread

Episode 271 - TD01 - Understanding Epicurus Through Tusculan Disputations

Welcome to Episode 271 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our…

Cassius

March 3, 2025 at 10:56 AM

Please feel free to make suggestions for additional citations within TD that are relevant to Epicurus but may not mention Epicurus's name specifically.

Here is a bullet-point list of sections within Cicero's Tusculan Disputations where Epicurean ideas are discussed, along with brief summaries:

• Book I, Sections 18–21
  • Cicero critiques the Epicurean view that death is not to be feared because sensation ceases with death. He argues that even if death entails the loss of sensation, this does not necessarily mean it is not an evil.
• Book I, Section 33
  • Epicurus' position that death is "nothing to us" is revisited. Cicero questions whether this truly removes the fear of death, as he believes that the anticipation of future suffering can still be disturbing.
• Book II, Sections 9–11
  • Cicero challenges the Epicurean view that pleasure is the highest good, arguing that virtue must be pursued for its own sake. He asserts that if pleasure were the highest good, moral excellence would be subordinated to bodily enjoyment.
• Book III, Sections 17–22
  • Cicero critiques the Epicurean claim that pain is the greatest evil, arguing that a wise person can endure pain with fortitude. He asserts that mental distress caused by vice is a greater evil than bodily pain.
• Book IV, Sections 6–7
  • The Epicurean approach to emotions, particularly their attempt to eliminate mental disturbances (ataraxia), is examined. Cicero argues that their focus on eliminating fear and anxiety does not sufficiently account for the role of reason and virtue in emotional well-being.
• Book V, Sections 29–32
  • The Epicurean notion that friendship is based on mutual utility and the pursuit of pleasure is addressed. Cicero contends that true friendship must be based on virtue rather than a calculation of benefits.

Cicero generally critiques Epicureanism as inadequate for achieving true virtue and happiness, advocating instead for a Stoic or Platonic approach to ethics.

Our "Discussion Guide" for Epicurean references in "Academic Questions" is here:

Debating Epicurus In Academic Questions

There is important information in "Academic Questions" about Epicurus that needs to be brought out. Here's a "Deepseek" response with citations to places in the text to get us started on the areas to focus. This will help in assembly of a discussion guide from which we can conduct the podcast and future discussions:

1. Critique of Epicurean Epistemology

Cicero critiques Epicurean epistemology in Book II of Academica (the Lucullus). He argues against the Epicurean reliance on sensory perception as the sole source of truth. Look for discussions of sensation, error, and the limits of human knowledge.

• Key Section: Academica II.19–II.24 (Cicero's critique of Epicurean sensory theory).

2. Epicurean Physics and Cosmology

Cicero addresses Epicurean physics, particularly their atomism, in Book I of Academica (the Catulus). He questions the adequacy of atomic theory to explain the order and complexity of the universe.

• Key Section: Academica I.5–I.7 (discussion of Epicurean atomism and cosmology).

3. Ethics and the Pursuit of Pleasure

Cicero critiques Epicurean ethics, especially their focus on pleasure as the highest good, in Book II of Academica. He contrasts Epicurean hedonism with the Stoic emphasis on virtue.

• Key Section: Academica II.131–II.140 (critique of Epicurean ethics and the concept of pleasure).

4. The Role of the Gods

Cicero discusses Epicurean theology in Book I of Academica, particularly their view of the gods as detached and uninvolved in the world. He contrasts this with the Stoic belief in divine providence.

• Key Section: Academica I.29–I.32 (critique of Epicurean theology).

5. Skepticism vs. Epicurean Dogmatism

Throughout Academica, Cicero contrasts the Skeptic approach to knowledge with the dogmatism of the Epicureans. He argues that the Epicureans are too confident in their claims and fail to acknowledge the limits of human understanding.

• Key Section: Academica II.98–II.104 (Skeptic critique of Epicurean dogmatism).

Here is one - if anyone wants to recommend another, please do. I've vetted this one only for being understandable for the first several minutes in English:

Here are introductions, but I like Bryan's suggestion to listen to the original:

Plato’s Timaeus (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Timaeus (dialogue) - Wikipedia