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Posts by Cassius

  • Episode One Hundred Four - More Torquatus and a Question: Was The Ancient Epicurean Movement A Cult?

    • Cassius
    • January 15, 2022 at 6:18 AM

    DeWitt's main argument is here:

    Quote

    EPICURUS NOT AN EMPIRICIST

    In the chapter on the New Physics it will be shown that Epicurus set up Twelve Elementary Principles, which he demonstrated like theorems of geometry, thus classifying himself as a deductive reasoner. The presumption that he was an empiricist has been based in large part upon the zest with which he brandished certain arguments in refutation of the skeptics, who denied the validity of sensation. These arguments are succinctly recorded by Laertius and more amply by Lucretius. The succinct account begins: "Nor does anything exist that can refute the sensations, for neither can a sensation in a given class refute the sensation in the same class, because they are of equal validity, nor can the sensation in a given class refute the sensation in another class, because they are not criteria of the same phenomena." *1* The first limb of this statement has reference to the objection urged by the skeptics that one drinker reports the wine to be sour and another sweet or one bather reports the water to be warm and another cold. The answer of Epicurus was sensible, that the difference was in the observers.2 Neither does the one judgment cancel the other, because each has validity for the observer, nor does the contradiction prove the fallibility of sensation, because the sensation in each instance performs its function as a criterion.

    The second limb of the statement means that the ears cannot contradict the nose if the latter registers the smell of peppermint, which calls for no comment.

    A subsequent item in the list of Laertius may seem to support the advocates of empiricism: "nor again can reason refute the sensations, because it depends upon them entirely." However, to interpret this as meaning that the whole content of consciousness is derived from the sensations would be in violation of the Canon, which makes no mention of reason, and would also be contrary to the belief in Anticipations, that is, innate ideas, which is a kind of intuitionism and incompatible with empiricism. The meaning is rather that bereft of the sensations a human being is virtually dead, which, as already mentioned, we know to have been an argument of Epicurus.8

    There is still another item in the list of Laertius that has been so translated as to lend plausibility to the charge of empiricism. One version runs, "For all thoughts have their origin in sensations," and another, "For all our notions are derived from perceptions." 4 The source of the error is an imprecision. The Greek noun translated above as "thoughts" or "notions" is *epinoiai,* which by virtue of its prefix signifies accessory, derivative or inferential ideas. These secondary ideas are not to be confused with others which to them are primary, *ennoiai* or *ennoemata.* For instance, Epicurus in the Little Epitome outlines seven of his Twelve Elementary Principles and then adds: "Even this brief statement affords an outline of the nature of the real existences sufficient for inferential ideas *\(epinoiais\)."* 5 To illustrate: the principle that the universe consists of atoms and void is a primary idea; the knowledge that the soul is distributed over the whole organism is secondary; it is inferred from the sensation of touch and other phenomena. 6

    Other plausible reasons for ascribing empiricism and belief in the infallibility of sensation to Epicurus will disappear if the ambiguities be cleared up that inhere in the statement "all sensations are true." If "sensation" and *sensus* be a rendering of *aisthesis,* which means the perception of particulars such as color and shape, then it was idle for Cicero to be arguing against Epicurus, because Aristotle often enough declared the perception of particulars to be always true.7

    It consequently follows that *sensus* must correspond to "phantasia," an inference confirmed by the evidence of Plutarch and Sextus Empiricus.8 This term was employed in the same sense by Aristotle and Epicurus; it signifies the composite image of particulars. Both recognized the possibility of error, but Epicurus was more keenly interested in this factor because by his time the vogue of skepticism had made the erection of criteria a vital necessity. He was consequently at pains to locate the source of error, and he found it in the hasty action of the automatic mind. For example, the boat on which the observer is a passenger is standing still but it seems to be moving when a second boat is passing by. In such an instance the eyes are not playing the observer false; it is the hasty judgment of the automatic mind that is in error. However odd it seems in English, Epicurus called this "the addition of opinion." In explanation of this the statement should be recalled, that "sensation is irrational and incapable of adding or subtracting anything." It is the automatic mind that adds motion to the standing ship and subtracts it from the moving ship. Lucretius cites several examples of similar errors.9

    In order to follow this topic through it is necessary to elucidate a point of terminology and semantic development. In all ages of the Greek language terminology was plastic. Thus Artistotle could employ *phantasia* to denote the imaginative faculty while using *phantasm* of the individual appearance, whether true or false.10 Epicurus, having a different concern, truth and error, restricted *phantasia* to true and real appearances, using *phantasm* only of the false visions of the insane or of dreamers and also of the phenomena of the heavens, which he declared too remote for clear observation.11 He even urged his disciple to scorn "those who concede dependable vision *\(phantasia\)* from distances," where the best scholars emend with misplaced ingenuity.12

    Yet this is only part of the story. With Aristotle the term *phantasia,* not being restricted to true presentations, readily serves to denote visions o£ the imagination as a faculty. It is from this use that the English language has been enriched by the derivatives *fancy* and *fantasy,* which denote the absolutely unreal. From this same drift of semantic change we have the word *fantastic.* Epicurus, on the contrary, having chosen *phantasia* to denote a true presentation, employed *fantastic* to describe the objectively true or real. It becomes a synonym of *immediate* and opposed to the remote. For instance, it makes no difference whether he writes "the immediate perceptions" or "the fantastic perceptions." Both alike pertain to the joint activity of the senses and the mind, by which it is recognized that the animal standing over there is an ox or that the man approaching is Plato. These perceptions are "fantastic," strange as the usage seems, because they result in recognitions. The imagination is not involved.

    While Epicurus was adamant in his determination to defend the validity of the sensations as being the means of direct contact between man and reality and as possessing precedence over reason, he exhibits no desire to defend the individual sensation. The fallacies of those who impute to him belief in the infallibility of sensation lie partly in their failure to observe the ambiguity of the word *true *and in their confusion of "truth" with "value."

    It is not difficult to differentiate the various meanings of *true* and it is essential to right understanding. For example, when Epicurus declared that "the phantasms seen by the insane and in dreams are true," he meant that they were "real" and existed independently of the madman or the dreamer, because "they act as a stimulus and that which does not exist does not deliver a stimulus." 13 These phantasms, however, are not "true" in the sense that a sensation experienced by the waking observer is true. The dreamer may have a vision of a centaur but no centaurs exist in real life. If the waking man sees an ox, then the sensation is true because the stimulus is delivered by a living ox.

    A still different meaning of *true* may be discerned when Epicurus denominates his system as "true philosophy." He means it is true in the sense that his Twelve Elementary Principles are true or in the sense that the modern scientist believes the accepted calculation of the speed of light to be true. This may be called absolute truth, if there is such a thing.

    It remains to speak of the relatively true. The views of a tower at various distances may be cited as examples. Each is true relative to the distance; its value as evidence of the facts is another matter. This distinction was no novelty to the ancients; Sextus Empiricus sets it forth at some length in a discussion of Epicureanism.14

    Also worthy of mention is the sensation which is optically true but false to the facts. An example much brandished by the skeptics was the bent image of the oar immersed in the water.18 Epicurus made logical provision for this difficulty: "Of two sensations the one cannot refute the other,16 because we give attention to all sensations." This statement alone would acquit him of belief in the infallibility of sensation, because it is distinctly implied that some sensations are employed to correct others.

    The example of the tower will serve as a transition from the topic of ambiguity to that of confusion. When modern scholars seize upon the saying "all sensations are true," which appears nowhere in the extant writings of Epicurus, and stretch it to mean that all sensations are reliable or trustworthy or "that the senses cannot be deceived," they are confusing the concept of truth with the concept of value.17 They overlook the fact that even a truthful witness may fall short of delivering the whole truth or may even give false evidence. The distant view of the square tower is quite true relative to the distance but it fails to reveal the whole truth about the tower.

    To assume that Epicurus was unaware of these plain truths, as one must if belief in the infallibility of sensation is imputed to him, is absurd. It is because he was aware that the value of sensations, apart from their truth, varied all the way from totality to zero, that he exhorted beginners "under all circumstances to watch the sensations and especially the immediate perceptions whether of the intellect or any of the criteria whatsoever." 18 Obviously, so far from thinking the sensations infallible, he was keenly aware of the possibility of error and drew sharp attention to the superior values of immediate sensations.

    When once these ambiguities and confusions have been discerned and eliminated, it is possible to state the teaching of Epicurus with some of that precision by which he set high store. In the meaning of the Canon, then, a sensation is an *aisthesis.* All such sensations may possess value; otherwise there would be no sense in saying, "We pay attention to all sensations." Their values, however, range all the way from totality to zero. The value is total only when the sensation is immediate. For example, when Aristotle says, "The sense of sight is not deceived as to color," this is true only of the close view, because colors fade in more distant views.

    Sensations, however, usually present themselves in combinations of color, shape, size, smell, and so on. An immediate presentation of such a composite unit is a *phantasia.* All such presentations are true, but they do not rank as criteria in the meaning of the Canon, for the reason that the intelligence has come into play. An act of recognition *\(epaisthesis\)* has taken place in the mind of the observer, which is secondary to the primary reaction that registered color, shape, size, smell, and so forth.

    That Epicurus did not regard these composite sensations as criteria is made clear by a statement of his own: "The fidelity of the recognitions guarantees the truth of the sensations." 19 For example, the animal standing yonder is recognized as a dun-colored ox. This is a secondary reaction. Only the primary perceptions of color, shape, size, and so on constitute a direct contact between man and the physical environment. The truth of these perceptions is confirmed by the fidelity of the recognition.

    Again, let it be assumed that the quality of sweetness is registered by sensation. It is not, however, sensation that says, "This is honey"; a secondary reaction in the form of a recognition involving intelligence has taken place. This, in the terminology of Epicurus, is "a fantastic perception of the intelligence." These were not given the rank of criteria by Epicurus for the reason already cited. It is on record, however, that later Epicureans did so.20

    So far is Epicurus from believing all sensations to be true in the meaning of the Canon that he guards against error in various ways. In the first place, attention must be paid to all sensations, as already mentioned. Next, the sensations of the individual must be checked by those of others: "Consequently attention must be paid to the immediate feelings and to the sensations, in common with others in matters of common concern and individually in matters of private concern and to all clear presentations of every one of the criteria." 21 This guardedness was imperative, because contemporary skepticism was flourishing.

    The problem of skepticism is attacked disjunctively in the Authorized Doctrines: either all sensations are rejected as valid evidence or some are admitted and some rejected. The former procedure is dealt with in Doctrine 23: "If you are going to make war on all the sensations, you will not even have a standard by reference to which you shall judge those of them which you say are deceptive." This makes it plain once more that not all sensations are true but the validity of some must be checked by the evidence of others.

    The Doctrine above is directed at the outright skeptics. The second limb of the disjunctive approach deals with the Platonists, who rejected terrestrial phenomena as deceptive while accepting the evidences of celestial phenomena. Epicurus denied "clear vision *\(phantasia\)* from distances," if only the text be not emended.22 He wrongly insisted that heavenly phenomena could be explained from the terrestrial. This betrayed him into committing his most notorious blunder; for the reason that the magnitude of a fire does not seem to diminish with distance as does that of concrete objects he declared the sun to be no larger or only a little larger than it appears to be.23 This ridiculous judgment calls for no comment, but it may be mentioned that Plato's belief in astral gods, however grandiose, is no more acceptable. Epicurus not only censured Plato for accepting the evidence of celestial phenomena while rejecting that of terrestrial phenomena but also condemns him as a mythologer: "Whenever a man admits one phenomenon and rejects another equally compatible with the phenomenon in question, it is manifest that he takes leave of all scientific study of nature and takes refuge in mythology." *2i *Hostility to Plato was combined in this case with contempt of mythology.

    Nevertheless Doctrine 23 throws light upon the working of the mind in respect of the criteria. Mental activity may be automatic or volitional. It is the automatic mind that errs; it may judge the distant tower to be round; this is the error of "opinion." The discreet observer knows the distant view to be deceptive and suspends judgment until the tower is observed at close hand. A tentative judgment is then confirmed or disproved.25 In the case of the size of the sun, which is visible but never at close hand, the judgment held good, as Epicurus believed, because not contradicted.

    The sensations are consistently regarded as witnesses in court.28 Their evidence may be false, as in the case of the oar half-immersed in the water, which appears to be bent. False evidence is to be corrected by that of other sensations. The evidence of all witnesses must receive attention. The volitional mind, as opposed to the automatic mind, which errs, functions as judge.

    By way of concluding this account of the Sensations as criteria it is well to present a synoptic view of the evidence. Nowhere in our extant Little Epitome or the Authorized Doctrines do we find the statement "that all sensations are true." On the contrary, the Epitome begins by urging the student "to give heed to the sensations under all circumstances and especially the immediate perceptions whether of the intelligence or of any criterion whatsoever," which manifestly allows some value to all sensations and special value to immediate sensations.27 At the end of the Epitome the student is warned to check his own observations by those of others.28 These authentic statements are incompatible with belief in the infallibility of sensation. They presume belief in gradations of value among sensations and also the need of perpetual caution against error.

    Of three Authorized Doctrines devoted to the topic, 23, 24, and 25, the first urges attention to "all the clear evidence"; the second warns that the rejection of all the sensations leaves the observer without the means of checking sensation by sensation; the third warns of the confusion resulting from rejecting any particular sensation. All of these are of the nature of warnings and completely belie the reckless verdict of an otherwise meticulous scholar "that the Epicureans boldly said that every impression of sense is true and trustworthy." 29

    Lastly, in every instance above mentioned the word for sensation is *aisthesis *and not *phantasia.* That somewhere Epicurus had actually written "all phantasias are true" seems certain; in which of his writings it is unknown, but the evidence is sufficient.30 This statement, as being assailable, was pounced upon by his detractors and zealously ventilated. If, however, the extant texts of Epicurus be taken as a guide, the phantasia or "fantastic" perception is merely the highest grade of evidence; the *aisthesis, *the perception of particulars, is the criterion.

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  • Episode One Hundred Four - More Torquatus and a Question: Was The Ancient Epicurean Movement A Cult?

    • Cassius
    • January 15, 2022 at 6:07 AM

    Some key paragraphs:

    Chapter 7:

    Quote

    It is an even worse mistake to have confused the tests of truth with the content of truth, that is, the tools of precision with the stones of the wall. This was the blunder of Pierre Gassendi, who revived the study of Epicurus in the seventeenth century. It was his finding "that there is nothing in the intellect which has not been in the senses." From this position John Locke, in turn, set out as the founder of modern empiricism. Thus a misunderstanding of Epicurus underlies a main trend of modern philosophy. This astonishing fact begets an even greater concern for a correct interpretation, which may cause Locke to appear slightly naive.


    Example of the chain reasoning issue:

    Quote

    It still remains to glance at the paradox in which Epicurus involves himself by employing reason to dethrone reason as the chief criterion. He places himself in a position similar to that of the skeptic who denies the possibility of certainty in knowledge, thus depriving his own skepticism of certainty.

    This paradox, moreover, does not stand alone. It is also paradoxical that Epicurus should have omitted reason from his Canon and at the same time accepted a great body of truth accumulated by the reasonings of predecessors and set these down among his Twelve Elementary Principles of Physics. From this inconsistency he thought to escape by treating each of these principles as if a theorem of geometry. For example, to demonstrate that the universe is infinite in respect of both matter and space, he resorts to a disjunctive syllogism.14 If matter were infinite and space finite, the latter could not contain the former. Again, if matter were finite and space infinite, then matter would be lost in space and no clashes or combinations of atoms would occur. Since these alternative assumptions lead to absurdities, the conclusion is that the original proposition is true. With such reasoning even a Stoic logician could find no fault.


    Chapter Eight:

    Quote

    THE criteria are three, but the prevailing custom is to reduce them to one by merging the Anticipations and the Feelings with the Sensations. This error arises from classifying Epicurus as an empiricist, ascribing to him belief in the infallibility of sensation, and then employing this false assumption as a major premise.

  • Episode One Hundred Four - More Torquatus and a Question: Was The Ancient Epicurean Movement A Cult?

    • Cassius
    • January 15, 2022 at 5:34 AM

    I think Joshua's points are correct as far as they go, but in order to really grapple with DeWitt's full opinion on this we would need to go to his chapters on epistemology to pull out exactly what he says about it, especially the sections where he contrasts Epicurus with John Locke and calls Locke's (or was it Gassendi's?) view of Epicurus's empiricism and calls that "naive."

    (I am going to write this from memory first before I check the sources.)

    What I recall is that the point is more centered on (1) anticipations, which Joshua touched on, but also (2) Epicurus' use of deductive logic, which firmly depends on the senses, but *does* go beyond them.

    Let's take (2) first, and as I write this I am struck by how important this issue is and how it no doubt is something that a Frances Wright will not swallow. In my view this is why she writes her material late in AFDIA about the essence of science being observation, and basically rejecting all turning of observation into theory. (If you want to trace that further, she does that even more explicitly in some of her collected lectures that were published later.)

    As I recall DeWitt pointing out, Epicurean physics goes further than just observation to take positions on things that can never be touched or observed directly by the senses -- such things as the existence of atoms and on many basic questions of the universe (Is it eternal? Did it have a beginning in time? Does it have an end in space?)

    DeWitt points out that Epicurus took firm positions on these issues through deductive chain reasoning (I clearly recall reference to chain reasoning in this context so we can word search on that too).

    As such, the theory of Epicurean physics is validated by observation that the information of the senses does not contradict the theory, and in fact supports the theory so strongly that we can be "certain" of it -- but the theory itself was never first in the senses.

    And this goes further into the profound issues to of Death (we've never been there to observe it first hand) and the gods (more complex due to the issue of images, but we've never been to the intermundia to observe it directly as one might argue a "strict empiricist" would demand.

    Now yes, DeWitt also links this issue to anticipations, and here is where DeWitt uses the word "intuitionist" in contrast to empiricist. We've had many discussions on this difficult issue but this is where deWitt references the Velleius material and says that at least one aspect of the anticipations is to provide sort of a genetic code that unfolds like a flower which does not at birth contain any stored information (wisdom? knowledge? data?) but which is genetically coded to dispose us to think in particular directions (the two topics Epicurus mentions DeWitt says are justice and divinity - and maybe time too? I would have to check on time).

    This puts Epicurus in direct contradiction to Aristotelian and Lockeian "blank slate" theory which is more consistent with empiricism ('nothing in the mind that did not first come through the senses').

    So I think Dewitt is really ultimately making his statement in the context of the blank slate contention, which I think is tightly related to empiricism (and is or should be findable if we looked up empiricism and studied its origins).

    That's a start let me save this before i lose it.

    But yes I think DeWitt is correct on this. And in my mind, I link this to the argument I regularly reference in the book by Jackson Barrwis "Dialogue on innate Principles" which is a full-front attack on John Locke based largely on this same issue. (Which I thought highly enough to make a site about, although it appears to need total revamping as only some of the links work.)

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 9:24 PM

    Yes this has to happen in stages. But I do think we all need to be clear about the eventual goal , which is real-life local friendships, real-life marriages, real life Epicurean children and childhood education, etc.! ;) The whole nine yards that they had in the ancient world.

  • Planning For A Weekly EpicureanFriends Zoom Meeting in 2022

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 9:06 PM

    So to be reasonable for Europe we'd have to do maybe 2 or 3 eastern time at the latest, which would put us into the morning on the west coast. I am thinking Europe is generally about six hours ahead of the USA, right?

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 9:01 PM

    Yes I am thinking like Simon in terms of public meeting places -- probably libraries in most communities. There's probably too much danger in inviting people to one's homes until we get to know them fairly well. Just like here on the forum where we need to "get to know" people for a while before giving them higher posting rights, there will need to be a vetting process that takes place at public locations first.

    But I agree -- open to everyone and be more generic and diplomatic at the open meetings than we would in private conversations. It won't take long for people to get the message that an Epicurean group isn't a cooking or boating club.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 4:53 PM

    Yes I agree. What we are starting to see in the way we structure the podcast and some of the Twentieth skype sessions is going to lead in the right direct.

    Some kind of

    - Open with welcome to everyone and state the agenda.

    - Some kind of brief presentation of a point of philosophy.

    - Some kind of question/answer "roundtable" about the point of philosophy that was raised.

    - Some kind of introduction of everyone by first name of who is there and a sentence or two or three (no more) about their background in Epicurus

    - Then maybe a "thank you for coming and our next meeting will be _______ and in the meantime we invite you to join us in our ongoing discussions at http://www.Hometown_lEpicureans.com. " And then say "We invite everyone to hang around and introduce themselves further and enjoy our cookies and punch (or whatever).

    We can do the same thing pretty much by zoom or at the local library.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 4:17 PM

    And maybe a key element in the picture is that the structure has to give the local leader some motivation to be the local leader. In other words, not necessarily financial motivation, but some kind of reward or compensation for all of the effort that it takes to spearhead local activity.

    We have half-joked before about the issue of "certifying" local people for things such as performing wedding ceremonies, but these issues have to be figured out without getting anywhere close to the "cult" status that we discussed in the last podcast.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 4:06 PM

    It is a start anyway. Maybe the question is "what does a group of Epicureans getting together with each other do?

    Some kind of pattern of activities combining a "lesson" or lecture with some kind of enjoyable activity (food)? Plus something that invites participation so people can get to know one another better.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 2:59 PM
    Quote from Matt

    But regardless a unified teaching curriculum would be needed to be the source for all the branches of the Garden.

    Yes I agree. We can't wait until all 38 (or is it 37) books are reconstructed, we have to start with the outline basics and get things going, then fill in the details over time. I don't see any evidence that Epicurus waited until all or most of his books were written before he started organizing.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 2:58 PM
    Quote from Matt

    Everyone needs to start branching off.

    That appears to be where things have fallen through in the past. Yes this is true, but in the end it takes "leadership" of a kind that I personally am not well equipped to provide! Or else we would be a lot further along already! ;)

    I think it is true that nothing really productive ever gets done by a committee alone, and that anything has to have a direction and a couple of leaders who help coordinate things. There are always a thousand reasons "not" to do things, and it takes some dedicated people to power past the obstacles.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 2:55 PM

    Yes I have been talking with Kalosyni lately about the aborted (to date) efforts at epicuruscollege.com

    I told her that I stopped pushing that forward in favor of the podcast, as I thought we needed more "content" before we could do course material.

    I think that issue is now resolved, and it's now time to figure out how to develop courses for an online presentation that can be combined with local activity.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 2:53 PM

    Matt and I crossposted but are on the same wavelength. We'll need to work on and provide a "model" for people to go by. Even the gods couldn't create anything without a model!

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 2:52 PM

    I think that part of the answer to these questions has to involve admitting that the world has changed a lot in the last few years.


    Even until recently I gather people found out about each other through posting flyers at the library, or at the local college campus, or maybe posting an advertisement in the local newspapers.

    None of that really is operational anymore. Even if we want to have a meeting of people in our subdivision or apartment complex, I gather that the first option nowadays is Zoom (or skype or whatever).

    I can't think of any alternatives but to combine the two processes by working to identify people in a particular locality but expect that even then their primary communication means will be online.

    So maybe the practical brainstorming needs to be figuring out how people are communicating and finding each other locally (maybe "Neighborhood" apps?) and figuring out a format where people in a particular locality can be invited to participate in zoom meetings that are fairly general in terms of Epicurean doctrine but also "local" in that everyone has a connection in generally living in a similar locality(?)

    If that's the way forward, then that's going to take significant planning on how to preserve privacy and security and at the same time do something worthwhile.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 2:42 PM

    I am not sure if this needs a new thread but I sense the topic is morphing to a variation of Joshua s "only the beginning theme."

    The question is almost:." What do those of us who begin to get comfortable with the Epicurean worldview do with that knowledge? "

    First and foremost that means using it to live happily ourselves, but then we should probably remember that the most important tool to live happily is friends.

    We here are online friends but we need local friends at least as much.

    So the topic always come back to how we can identify and/or cultivate our own local Epicurean friends.

    We can't just always talk among ourselves and increase our knowledge of the texts. Once we have the outline and a basic understanding, we move from "General Officers" to the front lines.

    And I think that points back to our needing to figure out our own variation of "Meetup groups" as Kalosyni and others have been discussing.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 1:02 PM

    "I've seen somewhere a scientific experiment which determined that pain is worth four times the amount of pleasure. Means that when you experience pain, you'll need four times the amount of pleasure to feel as happy as before."

    I would say that rules of thumb can be helpful but most frequently the ratings are so subjective that it's essential that the limits of thumbnails always be part of the conversation

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 11:48 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    The problem is that we sometimes have to take risks knowing that our decisions may backfire on us.

    I shouldn't have said it that way because this phrasing begs the question. We don't "have" to take risks in many cases. We choose whether to do so or not. We could simply choose to live in our caves on bread and water and forgo the possibility of many activities that may bring significant pleasure but at the cost of significant pain. If "all pain is to be avoided at all cost" is the formula, then the cave-dwelling life would be a logical option. But that doesn't appear to me to be the formula Epicurus taught, nor does it make sense to me that he would have taught it.

  • "Religion is a part of me"... how to deal with that?

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 11:45 AM
    Quote from Kalosyni

    And only certain people will be able to grasp this big picture understanding of Epicureanism,

    Exactly that seems to be contemplated in several sections of the texts, not the least of which is the Diogenes Laertius section translated as:

    Quote

    A man cannot become wise with every kind of physical constitution, nor in every nation.

    As well as in Torquatus' statement:

    Quote

    Yet nevertheless some men indulge without limit their avarice, ambition and love of power, lust, gluttony and those other desires, which ill-gotten gains can never diminish but rather must inflame the more; inasmuch that they appear proper subjects for restraint rather than for reformation.

  • Supernatural and the Senses

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 11:42 AM
    Quote from Kalosyni

    He said: "Don't do anything unless you are as happy as a child feeding a duck."

    I had a judge telll me one time that his best advice in life was "When in doubt, don't."

    Of course he was widely considered in the community to be neither a great judge nor having a lot of personal insight ;)

    The problem is that we sometimes have to take risks knowing that our decisions may backfire on us. Figuring out how to do that prudently in itself would be a great topic -- "how to evaluate risk" -- because I don't think Epicurus would or did recommend avoiding all risk. That's another way of framing the question that is often asked as "Should we pursue ONLY the natural and necessary desires?"

  • Episode One Hundred Five - More From Torquatus On The Key Doctrines of Epicurus

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2022 at 10:19 AM

    Welcome to Episode One Hundred Five of Lucretius Today.

    This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

    I am your host Cassius, and together with our panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

    If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

    At this point in our podcast we have completed our first line-by-line review of the poem, and we have turned to the presentation of Epicurean ethics found in Cicero's On Ends. Last week we spent most of the episode discussing several listener questions. Today we return to the Torquatus text and look more closely at this list of core Epicurean doctrines.

    Now let's join Martin reading today's text:


    [62] XIX. But these doctrines may be stated in a certain manner so as not merely to disarm our criticism, but actually to secure our sanction. For this is the way in which Epicurus represents the wise man as continually happy; he keeps his passions within bounds; about death he is indifferent; he holds true views concerning the eternal gods apart from all dread; he has no hesitation in crossing the boundary of life, if that be the better course. Furnished with these advantages he is continually in a state of pleasure, and there is in truth no moment at which he does not experience more pleasures than pains. For he remembers the past with thankfulness, and the present is so much his own that he is aware of its importance and its agreeableness, nor is he in dependence on the future, but awaits it while enjoying the present; he is also very far removed from those defects of character which I quoted a little time ago, and when he compares the fool’s life with his own, he feels great pleasure. And pains, if any befall him, have never power enough to prevent the wise man from finding more reasons for joy than for vexation.

    [63] It was indeed excellently said by Epicurus that fortune only in a small degree crosses the wise man’s path, and that his greatest and most important undertakings are executed in accordance with his own design and his own principles, and that no greater pleasure can be reaped from a life which is without end in time, than is reaped from this which we know to have its allotted end. He judged that the logic of your school possesses no efficacy either for the amelioration of life or for the facilitation of debate. He laid the greatest stress on natural science. That branch of knowledge enables us to realize clearly the force of words and the natural conditions of speech and the theory of consistent and contradictory expressions; and when we have learned the constitution of the universe we are relieved of superstition, are emancipated from the dread of death, are not agitated through ignorance of phenomena, from which ignorance, more than any thing else, terrible panics often arise; finally, our characters will also be improved when we have learned what it is that nature craves. Then again if we grasp a firm knowledge of phenomena, and uphold that canon, which almost fell from heaven into human ken, that test to which we are to bring all our judgments concerning things, we shall never succumb to any man’s eloquence and abandon our opinions.

    [64] Moreover, unless the constitution of the world is thoroughly understood, we shall by no means be able to justify the verdicts of our senses. Further, our mental perceptions all arise from our sensations; and if these are all to be true, as the system of Epicurus proves to us, then only will cognition and perception become possible. Now those who invalidate sensations and say that perception is altogether impossible, cannot even clear the way for this very argument of theirs when they have thrust the senses aside. Moreover, when cognition and knowledge have been invalidated, every principle concerning the conduct of life and the performance of its business becomes invalidated. So from natural science we borrow courage to withstand the fear of death, and rmness to face superstitious dread, and tranquillity of mind, through the removal of ignorance concerning the mysteries of the world, and self-control, arising from the elucidation of the nature of the passions and their different classes, and as I shewed just now, our leader again has established the canon and criterion of knowledge and thus has imparted to us a method for marking off falsehood
    from truth.

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