Posts by Cassius

Quote from Rolf

How would this look in practice?

In practice, when you view life as Epicurus suggests, you can find pleasure in all sorts of places and all sorts of things, so you're not going to normally find a "total absence of pleasure" situation. if you're absolutely unable to find pleasure, even using Epicurus' perspective, for some extreme reason, then you're probably approaching a "time to exit the stage" analysis because boy has the play really ceased to please you! But as Epicurus says that's an extreme and unusual situation, unless you want to count the state that all of us will eventually get to -- when we are at a limit of frailty of mind and body from old age. But most of the time long before that we meet our end from some other cause.

I'd say you could also simply recognize that any painful experience can justifiably be called an 'absence of pleasure' experience.

Quote from Don

As far as the "feelings are two," I fall back on the modern psychological research on valence and activation. You'll see some of this on this forum if you search for circumplex or Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett, https://lisafeldmanbarrett.com/

And while I am glad to have any argument in support of Epicurus, modern research manifestly cannot have been on Epicurus' mind when he formulated his philosophy.

Quote from Rolf

Why is this? If the absence of pain is pleasurable, then shouldn't the absence of pleasure be painful, by necessity? When pleasure simply fades away, what are we left with if not pain?

Given Epicurus' framework, I think it is clear that Epicurus would say that 'absence of pleasure' equals pain.

Here is my first effort to synthesize what Bryan and I were discussing last week.

The division of the feelings into two, and not more than two, is based on both feeling and philosophical reasoning:

1. We find through our own pre-rational feeling that all experiences in life naturally fall into positive (pleasure) and negative (pain) categories, and
2. We can and should through reason and logic affirmatively identify the healthy normal functioning of the mind and body (even when they are not being "stimulated") as pleasure.

If we did not hold point (1) to be true, then point (2) would not be justified. Insisting on the truth of point (1) separates Epicurean philosophy, which is based on the evidence of natural sensation (feeling), from Platonism, Stoicism, religion, etc which says reason and logic or divine inspiration alone, without the evidence of sensation, is sufficient.

If we did not hold Item (2) to be true, then we would not recognize as pleasure those experiences in life when we are not being stimulated. We would be like Cicero and Plato and believe that pleasure is not always available, pleasure cannot always serve as the guide of life, and that it is impossible for us to identify a life of happiness as a life of pleasure because pleasure supposedly requires constant stimulation, which is impossible to achieve.

It seems to me that an approach somewhat similar to this is probably where Epicurus was coming from in dividing the feelings into two. Some people will say my point one above is self-evident and all that is needed. I don't think that's the case - I think that the philosophical understanding is also necessary to understand why the division makes sense, and in support of that I would cite the quote from Lucretius:

1:146:

Hunc igitur terrorem animi tenebrasque necessest non radii solis neque lucida tela diei discutiant, sed naturae species ratioque.

Bailey:
This terror then, this darkness of the mind, must needs be scattered not by the rays of the sun and the gleaming shafts of day, but by the outer view and the inner law of nature; whose first rule shall take its start for us from this, that nothing is ever begotten of nothing by divine will.

So we can cite quotation after quotation that establishes that Epicurus did in fact divide the feelings into two, and that he stated that if we are feeling anything then we are feeling one or the other and there is no neutral state.

However, What was his justification for doing so? Is the question that needs elaboration.

Thanks Joshua. Here is my current list of the quotes that are central to this:

Diogenes Laertius X-34 : ”The internal sensations they say are two, pleasure and pain, which occur to every living creature, and the one is akin to nature and the other alien: by means of these two choice and avoidance are determined.“

1. On Ends Book One, 30 : ”Moreover, seeing that if you deprive a man of his senses there is nothing left to him, it is inevitable that nature herself should be the arbiter of what is in accord with or opposed to nature. Now what facts does she grasp or with what facts is her decision to seek or avoid any particular thing concerned, unless the facts of pleasure and pain?
2. On Ends Book One, 38 : Therefore Epicurus refused to allow that there is any middle term between pain and pleasure; what was thought by some to be a middle term, the absence of all pain, was not only itself pleasure, but the highest pleasure possible. Surely any one who is conscious of his own condition must needs be either in a state of pleasure or in a state of pain. Epicurus thinks that the highest degree of pleasure is defined by the removal of all pain, so that pleasure may afterwards exhibit diversities and differences but is incapable of increase or extension.“
3. On Ends Book One, 39 : For if that were the only pleasure which tickled the senses, as it were, if I may say so, and which overflowed and penetrated them with a certain agreeable feeling, then even a hand could not be content with freedom from pain without some pleasing motion of pleasure. But if the highest pleasure is, as Epicurus asserts, to be free from pain, then, O Chrysippus, the first admission was correctly made to you, that the hand, when it was in that condition, was in want of nothing; but the second admission was not equally correct, that if pleasure were a good it would wish for it. For it would not wish for it for this reason, inasmuch as whatever is free from pain is in pleasure.
4. On Ends Book One, 56 : By this time so much at least is plain, that the intensest pleasure or the intensest annoyance felt in the mind exerts more influence on the happiness or wretchedness of life than either feeling, when present for an equal space of time in the body. We refuse to believe, however, that when pleasure is removed, grief instantly ensues, excepting when perchance pain has taken the place of the pleasure; but we think on the contrary that we experience joy on the passing away of pains, even though none of that kind of pleasure which stirs the senses has taken their place; and from this it may be understood how great a pleasure it is to be without pain. [57] But as we are elated by the blessings to which we look forward, so we delight in those which we call to memory. Fools however are tormented by the recollection of misfortunes; wise men rejoice in keeping fresh the thankful recollection of their past blessings. Now it is in the power of our wills to bury our adversity in almost unbroken forgetfulness, and to agreeably and sweetly remind ourselves of our prosperity. But when we look with penetration and concentration of thought upon things that are past, then, if those things are bad, grief usually ensues, if good, joy.
5. On Ends Book One, 62 : But these doctrines may be stated in a certain manner so as not merely to disarm our criticism, but actually to secure our sanction. For this is the way in which Epicurus represents the wise man as continually happy; he keeps his passions within bounds; about death he is indifferent; he holds true views concerning the eternal gods apart from all dread; he has no hesitation in crossing the boundary of life, if that be the better course. Furnished with these advantages he is continually in a state of pleasure, and there is in truth no moment at which he does not experience more pleasures than pains. For he remembers the past with thankfulness, and the present is so much his own that he is aware of its importance and its agreeableness, nor is he in dependence on the future, but awaits it while enjoying the present; he is also very far removed from those defects of character which I quoted a little time ago, and when he compares the fool’s life with his own, he feels great pleasure. And pains, if any befall him, have never power enough to prevent the wise man from finding more reasons for joy than for vexation.
6. On Ends Book Two, 9 : Cicero: “…[B]ut unless you are extraordinarily obstinate you are bound to admit that 'freedom from pain' does not mean the same thing as 'pleasure.'” Torquatus: “Well but on this point you will find me obstinate, for it is as true as any proposition can be.”
7. On Ends, Book Two, 11: Cicero: Still, I replied, granting that there is nothing better (that point I waive for the moment), surely it does not therefore follow that what I may call the negation of pain is the same thing as pleasure?” Torquatus: “Clearly the same, he says, and indeed the greatest, beyond which none greater can possibly be.” (Plane idem, inquit, et maxima quidem, qua fieri nulla maior potest. Cic. Fin. 2.11)
8. On Ends Book Two, 16 : “This, O Torquatus, is doing violence to one's senses; it is wresting out of our minds the understanding of words with which we are imbued; for who can avoid seeing that these three states exist in the nature of things: first, the state of being in pleasure; secondly, that of being in pain; thirdly, that of being in such a condition as we are at this moment, and you too, I imagine, that is to say, neither in pleasure nor in pain; in such pleasure, I mean, as a man who is at a banquet, or in such pain as a man who is being tortured. What! do you not see a vast multitude of men who are neither rejoicing nor suffering, but in an intermediate state between these two conditions? No, indeed, said he; I say that all men who are free from pain are in pleasure, and in the greatest pleasure too. Do you, then, say that the man who, not being thirsty himself, mingles some wine for another, and the thirsty man who drinks it when mixed, are both enjoying the same pleasure?”

Great questions. I'll compose a lengthier response and get back to you. To some extent this issue came up in our Zoom last Wednesday night and i am not sure we have addressed it adequately in writing here on the forum. Bryan and I touched on it in reference to a statement made about Epicurus' use of "definition," but we did not get a chance to elaborate. This will give Bryan and I and others a change to write more on this.

There's no doubt in my mind but that Epicurus did in fact divide all feelings into two -- Diogenes Laertius states that explicitly and so does Torquatus in Cicero's On Ends.

However this is also the point to which Cicero vigorously rejects, and which many people - even some here - find counter-intuitive and mysterious. So we need to be able to state the justification explicitly -- and I can tell you now that you shouldn't expect everyone here to give or accept the same answer.

I think I'll tag Don and @Josh too because this is question that's going to turn into a FAQ over time - if it isn't already.

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"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

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Welcome to the forum!

That's an excellent quote and attitude and in the casual way it's intended it's probably close to perfect.

If we were to debate and discuss subtleties, however, and that's what forums are for, I'd question whether Epicurus's intent was literally "don't take death seriously," or something more like "take death very seriously and realize when you're gone you're done, but at the same time don't let it get you down."

This subject reminds me a little of the debate we sometimes have with those who are confused about why Epicurus' face in the ancient busts is so serious and with such piercing eyes, rather than laughing or smiling.

I do think that Epicurus would agree that laughing is one way to make peace with the inevitable. Would he say that it's "the best" way?

I suspect this may be one of those "Turn, Turn, Turn" situations.

I wonder if there is a way that it can be made more clear that the cup is full rather than empty? The black color alone might be hard to determine whether empty or full (?)

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Quote from Robert

If I'm thirsty, and convince myself that I need to have soda, beer, or whatever, might that also be an example? After all, very often a glass of water will do just fine.

I think that here we're talking about the necessary / unnecessary / etc analysis, which yes addresses the problem that through our own mistake, or through outside conditioning, we end up thinking that we have to have X in order to be satisfied, but in truth Y would produce a better overall pleasure over pain result.

The thing I like to caution against, though, is thinking that what a person should target is "just enough to get by" as if "just enough" is the goal. The goal is choosing the "most pleasant" option, rather than the "just enough" option, and I would argue that there is a very important difference between the two. Sometimes the soda, beer, etc., is in fact the most pleasant option and worthy of being chosen.

As VS 63 is usually translated, "Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess."

Welcome to Episode 282 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we continue our series covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean viewpoint. This series addresses five of the greatest questions in human life (Death, Pain, Grief/Fear, Joy/Desire, and Virtue) with Cicero speaking for the majority and Epicurus the main opponent:

Today we continue in Part 2 - "Is Pain An Evil?," picking up with Section XI, where Cicero attacks Epicurus for saying that pain is the greatest evil.

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Our general discussion guide for Tusculun Disputations is here: https://epicureanfriends.github.io/tusculundisput…lish/section:12

And a side-by-side version with comments is here:

EpicureanFriends SideBySide Commentary on TD

Rolf

PD01. The blessed and incorruptible nature knows no trouble itself, nor causes trouble to any other, so that it is never constrained by anger or favor. For all such things exist only in the weak. ^[1]

PD02. Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved is without sensation; and that which lacks sensation is nothing to us.

Exhibit A to my last post. If anyone wants to comment on it I'll crosspost this to physics, but the number of similar articles is innumerable and this is of note only because it's new. These guys have been organized for 2000+ years and the drumbeat never stops - so neither can our organizing an immunization.

There's also another important - but a little less pleasant to discuss - side of things. Not everyone in this world is, or wants to be, or is going to be your friend. Nor are you going to succeed in making them so, no matter how you might try to do so. Epicurean philosophy teaches you to be aware that many contentious issues such as supernatural gods and life after death are not just neutral, take-it-or-leave-it, or compromisable issues.

One analogy I think I can make without offending anyone is as to cigarette manufacturers, who apparently at this point in history are acknowledged to have made their products more addictive even while knowing that they were deadly. Without harping on one example, I think there are plenty of instances where we have to recognize that not everyone is supportive of everyone else's best interests (to say the least). Epicurean philosophy teaches you to immunize yourself against many impositions by giving you a basic orientation toward the universe that helps defeat those negative forces in life.

That's a huge point, and arguably in the ancient Epicurean calculus of higher priority even than identifying happiness as your goal. The major doctrines all fit together logically, hand in glove, but the first and second most important doctrines on the list are telling you to first and foremost watch out for those who would manipulate you with bad motives.

That's an attitude toward the world that needs to be constantly a part of how we live our daily lives, and I consider it along with the swerve free will / personal responsibility) to be one of the most distinctly Epicurean characteristics.

I should have added that early in my study I printed out some pictures, worked on some 3d busts, etc. I never graduated to ring or pendants but those are good too, ieth the basic idea that its a good think to have occasional reminders in your surroundings that the philosophy is more than just an idea but that real people - lots of them - engaged in it too in the past, and you can be a part of that self-chosen group no matter how distant. I like thinking that I am part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

I don't think of myself as having particular structure, but in my case I am pretty much constantly working with this website and reading and studying the texts and thinking of new ways to present it and talking to people about it. I suspect that the normal days of Lucretius or Diogenes of Oinoanda or Philodemus would have been pretty similar. The word "ritual" evokes a lot of both positive and negative connotations given the way we think of rituals working in the standard supernatural religions, and I tend to avoid those personally.

The most on-point advise that I recall is:

VS41. We must laugh and philosophize at the same time, and do our household duties, and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy.

To me, this kind of approach means that everything you do is folded into the master plan of living happily according to Epicurus' worldview, but on the other hand almost nothing you do is hard-wired to a particular absolute "ritual," because that's not the way life is - you're always adjusting to circumstances to produce the best result. You're either living by Epicurean ideas consciously and intentionally moment by moment, or during those deviations you're not really living by Epicurean ideas at all, no matter what "ritual" you might be engaged in.

Quote from Julia

You see: Even if SoE reject whatever we suggest, that's still dialogue and they might have a counter proposal. Other than "this feels like a waste of time" (which is fine to feel that way) I don't see what we have to lose

While I would be shocked if there were wide consensus among existing Epicurean aficianoados, I still think the exercise is very useful. I almost see it as a "Rorschach test" of what individuals see as the most important aspects of Epicurean philosophy. It's amazing how people look differently even at the general subject of talking about how symbolism should work. Should the symbol be related to something that is "unique" about Epicurus, or is it ok for it to be about something that he's often associated with (atomism) but not at all as the trailblazer (that would have to go to Democritus or one of the eariler atomists.)

So I have no real hope of any consensus arising in the near future, but at the same time I think the exercise is great food for thought for everyone.