I haven't had a chance to look at it yet but it always confuses me when Plato or another Greek seems to be talking in terms that are almost "monotheistic." That makes it almost sound like Epicurus was more in accord with the common Greek religion (in terms of talking about multiple "gods") than was Plato or someone else who was tending toward monotheism.
Posts by Cassius
REMINDER: SUNDAY WEEKLY ZOOM - January 11, 2026 -12:30 PM EDT - Ancient text study and discussion: De Rerum Natura by Lucretius - Level 03 members and above -- Line 127 - read the new update.
-
-
My week has been busier than usual but this podcast will be up later today. Here are some notes made during final edit:
We get back in to the issue of eternal and unchanging "properties" of atoms (size, weight, shape) vs transient and changing "qualities" of combinations of atoms that we perceive through our senses.
This is a subject that we discussed most recently in terms of what it means to "exist" here: RE: Eikas Information
For the most part (especially after editing) I think our conversation is pretty clear, but this issue of the best terminology to use to discuss things that are eternal vs things that are not is something we really need to work on! There are a variety of words that get confusing if we don't really make ourselves clear. Here is an effort to organize these into a chart, but it's not complete and needs adjustment, because the "essential conjuncts" list (such things as weight to stones) is not quite the same thing as atomic size, shape, and weight), nor is something like "bondage" quite the same thing as color.
Things That Are Eternal
(Atoms, which have size, shape, and weight)Things That Are Not Eternal
(Things about atoms that change, such as color)Words Associated With Things In This Category: Words Associated With Things In This Category: Properties Qualities Essential conjuncts (Brown) Events (or "Accidents") Weight to Stones Emerging Heat to Fire The color of combinations of atoms Moisture to the Sea The odor of combinations of atoms Touch to Bodies Human activities, such as The Trojan War Lack of touchability to void Bondage Liberty Riches Poverty War Peace Source: Lucretius Book One (Brown)
[430] Besides, there is nothing you can strictly say, “It is neither body nor void,” which you may call a third degree of things distinct from these. For every being must in quantity be more or less; and if it can be touched, though never so small or light, it must be body, and so esteemed; but if it can't be touched, and has not in itself a power to stop the course of other bodies as they pass, this is the void we call an empty space.
Again, whatever is must either act itself, or be by other agents acted on; or must be something in which other bodies must have a place and move; but nothing without body can act, or be acted on; and where can this be done, but in a vacuum or empty space? Therefore, beside what body is or space, no third degree in nature can be found, nothing that ever can affect our sense, or by the power of thought can be conceived.
[449] All other things you'll find essential conjuncts, or else the events or accidents of these. I call essential conjunct what's so joined to a thing that it cannot, without fatal violence, be forced or parted from it; is weight to stones, to fire heat, moisture to the Sea, touch to all bodies, and not to be touched essential is to void. But, on the contrary, Bondage, Liberty, Riches, Poverty, War, Concord, or the like, which not affect the nature of the thing, but when they come or go, the thing remains entire; these, as it is fit we should, we call Events. Time, likewise, of itself is nothing; our sense collects from things themselves what has been done long since, the thing that present is, and what's to come. For no one, we must own, ever thought of Time distinct from things in motion or at rest.
[464] For when the poets sing of Helen's rape, or of the Trojan State subdued by war, we must not say that these things do exist now in themselves, since Time, irrevocably past, has long since swept away that race of men that were the cause of those events; for every act is either properly the event of things, or of the places where those things are done. Further, if things were not of matter formed, were there no place or space where things might act, the fire that burned in Paris' heart, blown up by love of Helen's beauty, had never raised the famous contests of a cruel war; nor had the wooden horse set Troy on fire, discharging from his belly in the night the armed Greeks: from whence you plainly see that actions do not of themselves subsist, as bodies do, nor are in nature such as is a void, but rather are more justly called the events of body, and of space, where things are carried on.
[483] Lastly, bodies are either the first seeds of things, or formed by the uniting of those seeds. The simple seeds of things no force can strain, their solid parts will never be subdued. Though it is difficult, I own, to think that any thing in nature can be found perfectly solid; for heaven's thunder passes through the walls of houses, just as sound or words; iron in the fire grows hot, and burning stones fly into pieces by the raging heat; the stiffness of the gold is loosed by fire, and made to run; the hard and solid brass, subdued by flames, dissolves; the heat and piercing cold passes through silver; both of these we find as in our hand we hold a cup, and at the top pour water hot or cold: so nothing wholly solid seems to be found in nature. But because reason and the fixed state of things oblige me, here, I beg, while in few verses we evince that there are beings that consist of solid and everlasting matter which we call the seeds, the first principles of things, from whence the whole of things begin to be.
-
I did not recognize that song Matt posted, but when I saw the title and the singers I immediately recognized the name Glenn Yarborough for THIS song below. I have always thought "Baby the rain must fall" was Epicurean-compatible as to the main them, seeking pleasure despite the pain that comes along the way. More of an anthem than the "nobody wants to die song" and maybe more helpful in troubled times. I guess the folk singers tended toward philosophical themes.
Sorry for the partial divergence from the Charles Darwin / death theme, but he does say that he doesn't know and will live with whatever comes (heaven or hell, and he should have offered "none of the above" but it's hard to rhyme that).
-
Happy Birthday to Susan Hill! Learn more about Susan Hill and say happy birthday on Susan Hill's timeline: Susan Hill
-
Welcome and we look forward to having your participate with us!
-
(Sometimes brainstorming ideas get a bit carried away, lol, but that is how the best ideas happen, when you just let the creativity flow).
Yes exactly. It's too bad the Aristotelians trademarked the term "peripatetics" because a "walking group" might well fit the bill as a free and healthful activity that could be engaged in as a group and still combine philosophy. Maybe something like meeting at an appointed time at a park, then having a brief talk, then walking together.
(I am afraid my age is showing that "walking" sounds like more fun and more practical than a nudist colony
-
This would also work with a cafe and similar establishments.
Yes I agree that there are many options that could be made to work. I joke in mentioning "nudist colony" or something like that, but the real formula would likely be something entertaining that doesn't cost a lot of money to engage in but can still blend physical with mental pleasures. Not that "nudist colony" is a good example, but depending on the geography of the location there are probably lots of variations on group activities that can be conducted without investing a lot of money.
-
And that is an interesting quote from both Disken Clay and Seneca:
QuoteQuote Epicurus' Garden was not a school. Seneca had it right when he commented: 'it was not the school of Epicurus that made Metrodorus, Hermarchus and Polyaenus great men but their shared life'.
I don't think anyone seriously doubts that a "school" was a major component of what Epicurus was doing. Even so, the statement that "it was not the "school" of Epicurus (which I would interpret as "the book learning") that made those men great" is probably true figuratively, f not exactly literally.
I've read several of Diskin Clay's articles and found that he was a great writer but given to colorful wording. I remember one thing that has always stuck with me about him. I would never have suspected that his Article "Epicurus' Last Will and Testament" regardless of the title, is largely devoted to a discussion of Epicurus' elemental physics. Much more than being focused on the will itself, it contains a detailed treatment of what much have been included in the book on the "Twelve Fundamentals." After I finally found that, almost by accident, I stopped putting too much stock in the titles that Clay chose for his writing. Apparently the double (or multiple) meanings of the title was a play on Epicurus' physics being his true "last will and testament."
-
My own possible idea for the future -- perhaps it could be an "Epicurean Bed and Breakfast" where people can come, stay, and study in the library, and enjoy the outdoors (perhaps a rose garden) - advertized on online on airbnb for a good nightly rate -- but it would be free for good friends to come and visit
That is not a bad idea at all!
-
In addition to that we need a section on
The Garden As Prep School
Today we go through phases in life in which we go locally to school, and then go away to college (in some cases), all with the knowledge and intent that we are preparing for life in the larger world.
We form and take with us many friendships with fellow students and teachers, and many of those last the rest of our lives. But we never should lose sight that the schooling is a preparatory phase that will not last forever, and that our reason for being their is to learn how to stand on our own feet and form our own families and stable communities.
The professors and the staff of the "College" do have a longer-lasting relationship that turns out to be weekly or daily and is open ended as to time, and some of the students will even be incorporated into the College staff and instructors.
But everyone keeps a clear eye on the goal that for most this is a preparatory phase, abs that the goal of happy living for the community requires that its mission be understood and respected, so that each fulfills his or her appropriate role.
Just like in AFDiA the character of Hedeia had ti be saved from the storm, it's not in the nature of life that every individual can live and act as if there are no outside threats to their continued happiness.
It may or may not take a village to raise a child, but it takes a community to support the individual in a world where there are many organized opponents who are not interested in our happiness, and who in fact see it as a threat.
The Garden as a Refuge complements and supports the role of the Garden as a School, and there are other roles that are necessary as well. But none of these roles stand alone, and if we focus on one aspect exclusively we are like Polyaenus spending all his time on his diagrams while the rest of life passes him by and smashes those diagrams.
-
Happy Birthday to ekyrian! Learn more about ekyrian and say happy birthday on ekyrian's timeline: ekyrian
-
Welcome DailyEpicurus ! Please Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their accounts will be deleted. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourselves further and join one or more of our conversations.
This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.
In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
- "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
- The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
- "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
- "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
- The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
- Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
- Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
- The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
- A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
- Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
- Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
- "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
Welcome to the forum!
-
Thats great work on your blog Kalosyni!
-
-
Cross reference: Thread on the character of Hedeia - Reactions To "Hedeia" - Chapter Twelve of AFDIA
-
I wanted to start a special thread in anticipation of our Book Review Discussion of Chapter 12 of AFDIA to focus on the character and personality of "Hedeia."
I don't think we have talked too much previously about this character here on the forum, and I am not sure that she exists outside of this fictional world of Frances Wright.
However I have always found the portrayal of her character to be difficult to size up, and I would be interested in impressions of what she represents, and what Frances Wright is portraying in presenting her in this way.
Some of the basic attributes she is displaying is disdain for philosophic intellectualizing in general, and she is very headstrong and aggressive and willing to trade on her wittiness and physical beauty in a way that I think many would describe as off-putting.
Yet while Wright has several of the characters express warnings about her, I don't believe she has Epicurus or anyone else condemn her outright, and it is almost as if she represents an assertion of "If you're lucky enough to have the world on a string, don't be ashamed to spin it around for fun."
In typing this I wonder (probably for the first time) if this aspect of her character is intended to display a version of the position taken by Epicurus in PD10.
At any rate I think there are many interesting aspects of this character that we don't often find reason to talk about, so I wanted to point this out to memorialize it.
-
PROGRAMMING NOTE FOR THE ZOOM BOOK REVIEW:
Chapter 13 is very short, so we are combining discussion of Chapter 13 with Chapter 14 .
-
Cassius started a new event:
QuoteDisplay More"A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting. Final Session
This week we will go through final reactions to the book in general and to Frances Wright.
We will also discuss the article at EpicureanFriends entitled: Problems in Frances Wright's "A Few Days in Athens"
Important Links:Link to PDF of the original book at Archive.org.
AFDIA Website with the entire book: http://www.afewdaysinathens.com
RECURRING ZOOM LINK - USE THIS EACH SESSION:
Topic: A Few Days In Athens - Zoom Book Review 2022
Time: This is a recurring meeting
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us06web.zoom.us/j/85285185334?…2gyaWdHQzEyQT09
Meeting ID: 852 8518 5334
Passcode: 219879
One tap mobile
+16468769923,,85285185334#,,,,*219879# US (New York)
+13017158592,,85285185334#,,,,*219879# US (Washington DC)
Dial by your location
+1 646 876 9923 US (New York)
+1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC)
+1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago)
+1 408 638 0968 US (San Jose)
+1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose)
+1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma)
+1 346 248 7799 US (Houston)
Meeting ID: 852 8518 5334
Passcode: 219879
Find your local number: https://us06web.zoom.us/u/kecx4HCZfV
-
Cassius started a new event:
QuoteDisplay More"A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting. This week - Chapter Sixteen!
This is the last chapter and contains the full-frontal attack on religion. Topics include:
Chapter 16 – Epicurus Addresses an Assembly on the Evils of Religion
- Epicurus tells the crowd he will address the place of man in the universe.
- In this inquiry we must dismiss presumption and fear.
- The elements of the universe are evidently eternal and unchangeable, and that these elements make up all things and give them their qualities.
- Epicurus asks why we doubt the power of science and says that man alone doubts the power of his senses and perverts himself to poison the sources of his happiness.
- The source of this error is in the overdevelopment of our imagination – and the first link in the erroneous chain of thought is RELIGION.
- Religion is the true dethroner of human virtue and the root of all evil and misery in the world.
- The world is full of religion and also full of misery and crime.
- Gods cannot be observed, and are of such nature that they can have no relevance to men.
- Religion is not merely useless, it is mischievous by its idle terrors, its false morality, its hypocrisy, its dogmatism, and its false threats, hopes, and promises.
- The common concepts of the gods are offensive to both men and the gods.
- Whether it is a god or a philosopher who speaks, the evidence of nature is that the message of both is “Enjoy, and be happy!”
- The good is all that brings you pleasure; the evil is that which must bring you pain, and in this there is no paradox, no hidden tables.
- Just as religion is unsound, so is the common understanding of morality and “virtue.” Folly invented it, and knavery supports it. Let us arise, examine, judge, and be free!
Note: The use of video is strictly optional. We welcome any of our friends who choose to use audio only.
Important Links:
Link to PDF of the original book at Archive.org.
AFDIA Website with the entire book: http://www.afewdaysinathens.com
RECURRING ZOOM LINK - USE THIS EACH SESSION:
Topic: A Few Days In Athens - Zoom Book Review 2022
Time: This is a recurring meeting
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us06web.zoom.us/j/85285185334?…2gyaWdHQzEyQT09
Meeting ID: 852 8518 5334
Passcode: 219879
One tap mobile
+16468769923,,85285185334#,,,,*219879# US (New York)
+13017158592,,85285185334#,,,,*219879# US (Washington DC)
Dial by your location
+1 646 876 9923 US (New York)
+1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC)
+1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago)
+1 408 638 0968 US (San Jose)
+1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose)
+1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma)
+1 346 248 7799 US (Houston)
Meeting ID: 852 8518 5334
Passcode: 219879
Find your local number: https://us06web.zoom.us/u/kecx4HCZfV
-
Cassius started a new event:
QuoteDisplay More"A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting. This week - Chapter Fifteen!
This is a deep one! Topics include:
Chapter 15 Summary – Theon Discusses Materialism With Metrodorus and Leontium
- Metrodorus accuses Aristotle of pedantry.
- Metrodorus says that it is error to mistake mystery for wisdom, pedantry for knowledge, and prejudice for virtue.
- Metrodorus discusses cause and effect and that there is a limit to how far back we can go.
- Leontium explains how rationalism is error, and that we must focus on observation.
- Theon accuses Leontium of “materialism” and Leontium replies that a matter of fact can be neither moral nor immoral.
- Leontium says inquiry is everything; theory and hypothesis can be worse than nothing when they amount to preconceived abstractions of vice or virtue.
- Leontium says no moral truths are self evident, but require observation and reasoning to determine the consequences of actions.
- Leontium addresses the “first cause” argument and responds that the universe is eternal and has no first cause.
- Leontium addresses the argument that the universe is ‘ordered’ by observing that what we see as order is only our perception of the way things are.
- Metrodorus points out the error of considering atoms to be “inert” and asserts that life is a quality of matter.
- Leontium points out that qualities do not exist apart from the matter with which they associated, and that Aristotle was wrong in asserting the opposite.
- Frances Wright interjects an editor’s note and laments that the scientists of her day adopt Epicurean ideas without crediting Epicurus.
Note: The use of video is strictly optional. We welcome any of our friends who choose to use audio only.
Important Links:
Link to PDF of the original book at Archive.org.
AFDIA Website with the entire book: http://www.afewdaysinathens.com
RECURRING ZOOM LINK - USE THIS EACH SESSION:
Topic: A Few Days In Athens - Zoom Book Review 2022
Time: This is a recurring meeting
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us06web.zoom.us/j/85285185334?…2gyaWdHQzEyQT09
Meeting ID: 852 8518 5334
Passcode: 219879
One tap mobile
+16468769923,,85285185334#,,,,*219879# US (New York)
+13017158592,,85285185334#,,,,*219879# US (Washington DC)
Dial by your location
+1 646 876 9923 US (New York)
+1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC)
+1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago)
+1 408 638 0968 US (San Jose)
+1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose)
+1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma)
+1 346 248 7799 US (Houston)
Meeting ID: 852 8518 5334
Passcode: 219879
Find your local number: https://us06web.zoom.us/u/kecx4HCZfV
Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com
Here is a list of suggested search strategies:
- Website Overview page - clickable links arrranged by cards.
- Forum Main Page - list of forums and subforums arranged by topic. Threads are posted according to relevant topics. The "Uncategorized subforum" contains threads which do not fall into any existing topic (also contains older "unfiled" threads which will soon be moved).
- Search Tool - icon is located on the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere."
- Search By Key Tags - curated to show frequently-searched topics.
- Full Tag List - an alphabetical list of all tags.