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  • 2022 Epicurus vs Buddhism Compare and Contrast Thread

    • Cassius
    • January 27, 2022 at 5:48 PM

    Here is another clip that might advance this conversation:

    Quote
    Quote
    Both Nietzsche's and Buddhist writings share the fact that they are a direct response to nihilism, however was he right in characterizing Buddhism as advocating a negation of the will, as a will to nothingness, or was this a misunderstanding stemming from his reading of Buddhist texts through the works of Schopenhauer?

    I can speak less strongly to Nietzsche than I can to Buddhism, but let me say this: Buddhism is (and has been for than a millennium) as stricken by sectarianism as any Western religion. In the particular case of the approach to will, consider two almost orthogonal cases:

    1. Theravada Buddhism. To vastly oversimplify, Theravadins practice something that approaches an ascetism. In a very real way, Theravada practice focuses on denying--and thus subduing--the will and any sense of desire. I think this most completely meshes with Nietzsche's conception of Buddhist thought as a negation of the will and a will to nothingness. This conception is very easily supported--and is supported in Theravada--through the Second and Third Noble Truths ("Desire is the root of suffering." and "There is a path to the cessation of desire.").
    2. Zen Buddhism. Most notably in its theoretical form, Zen looks almost nothing like Theravada in respect to its approach to will and nothingness. Zen thinking relies heavily on the Diamond and Heart Sutras, which pretty explicitly say that the Buddhist conception of nothingness envelops even the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. As such, Zen practitioners reach for a stillness of mind that manifests as a totally natural motion of mind. This looks almost identical to Taoist Wei-Wu-Wei (action without action), which is harmonious natural activity. In Zen (as in most forms of Buddhism when practiced in their highest forms), the fullness of nothingness is recognized: it is not a negation of anything, but rather an affirmation of everything which is in the phenomenally experienced world. In Zen, it is said that "It is right to want flowers and to hate weeds." This is quite obviously NOT a negation of will, but perhaps rather an attempt to free one's will from what Zen would call the confines of ego-bound or conceptual thought.

    The point is that Nietzsche's interpretation of Buddhist will and nothingness is quite defensible, and it is a very natural conclusion from certain forms of Buddhism--especially many of those that are approached in a more scholarly and academic fashion. On the other hand, there are Buddhist schools in which there is no reasonable way to reconcile Nietzsche's conception with what the practicing Buddhists talk about.

    Unfortunately, however, there is a massive caveat to this, and that is that most practicing Buddhists (even those who practice Sutra-driven forms of the religion) will tell you that Buddhism cannot be completely accurately expressed in academic words. There is a requirement for the suspension of self that requires the suspension of thought, and "nothingness" (to most Buddhists) is simply a word-symbol that points to the unencapsulable idea that is that suspension and the access it gives.

    The only serious way to enquire about the philosophical validity of Western takes on Buddhism that are laden with basic philosophical conceits regarding thought, self, and truth is in terms of their psychological and cultural impact, and that's a completely different question.


    That's from here: https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/3452…que-of-buddhism

  • 2022 Epicurus vs Buddhism Compare and Contrast Thread

    • Cassius
    • January 27, 2022 at 5:39 PM

    In reading summaries like Matt has posted, the jargon almost seems nonsensical to someone who doesn't dive in to the details. What is the world is so attractive about it that people would spend the time to dive into those details when they hardly take the time anymore to read a book or a newspaper on current events. I presume that the superficial attraction is something about the "mystical" look or the simplicity appearance of the leaders, but I am probably descending again in to Buddhism-Bashing. Don't people who are attracted to it have "some" idea of the basic teachings before they dive into the details? What are those basic attractions that get people started down that path in the first place?

    (And here I am referring to Westerners who are raised largely in a "Western" tradition - I am not referring to people in Eastern cultures who are raised around it and absorb it from the majority of those around them.)

  • 2022 Epicurus vs Buddhism Compare and Contrast Thread

    • Cassius
    • January 27, 2022 at 4:34 PM

    We have recently had a number of good new participants in the forum who have a lot of experience in Buddhism. We have one thread on this already, but rather than restart that one I'd prefer a brand new one which will probably make it easier to get input from the new participants, which I would greatly appreciate.

    As before, we don't need a Buddhism-Bashing tone here - though I myself probably have tendency to be the most guilty of that. Part of my frustration comes from finding it relatively easy to pin down core positions of Stoicism, and therefore contrasting it to Epicurean viewpoints on the same issues, but regularly being told that Buddhism is so amorphous that it's really impossible to pin it down. The discussion usually then devolves into "such and such a figure said this" and "such and such a figure said that" with the result that there are so many rabbit trails that only those who are deep into Buddhism end up really caring about the results.


    So if possible I'd like us to work on a thread for "the rest of us" - Epicureans in particular, of course, who want to get an initial grasp of what is fairly referrable to as generic Buddhism from a Western perspective. That way we can hopefully get a grasp on at least a couple of core concepts.

    To kick this off, I will post something that documents what I myself understand to be sort of a generic Buddhist position that I think Epicurus would find most unacceptable. Since we don't have direct Epicurean commentary, my best suggestion is to cite this in the form of two clips I came across this afternoon:


    Those clips came from here.

    Of course I said that this shouldn't be a "Bash Buddhism" thread and then I turn around and cite someone who never read "How To Win Friends and Influence People." But I cite this as an attempt to ground the discussion in the views of someone who was a far smarter person than I, who actually had some sympathies for Buddhism, and who apparently ended up finding a strong strain of Nihilism and Passivity in Buddhism which does in fact seem to me to be the standard criticism which I see repeated often in mainstream "Western" writing that ultimately seems to derive from the Greco-Roman-Epicurean perspective.

    Hopefully these cites will help us focus on the really large questions including:

    "Is Buddhism essentially nihilistic?"

    Is the goal of Buddhism ultimately to cease to exist?"

    Does Buddhism cultivate passivity?

    And of course from our Epicurean perspective, "Is it fair to say that Buddhism has very little or any concern with pleasure as the goal of life?"

    This is a start and I hope this time we can construct some commentary that would be useful in the future to our many visitors who have explored Buddhism prior to coming to this forum.

  • "Epicurus at Leontium" - Ludwig Gottlieb Portman, c. 1802-1803

    • Cassius
    • January 27, 2022 at 4:20 PM

    If you don't have a Dutch friend I think there is a Marco on the Facebook page who is definitely Dutch.

  • Welcome SimonTrepanier!

    • Cassius
    • January 27, 2022 at 9:20 AM

    Welcome @SimonTrepanier !

    This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

    Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

    All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

    One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

    In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

    1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
    2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
    3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
    4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
    5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
    6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
    7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
    8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
    9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
    10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
    11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
    12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

    It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

    And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

    Welcome to the forum!


    &thumbnail=medium


    &thumbnail=medium

  • New Audio Version of Torquatus' Presentation of Epicurean Ethics - Read By Joshua

    • Cassius
    • January 27, 2022 at 9:03 AM

    Joshua -- In order for this to show up on the home page under the "Featured Files" section I have added a new entry here: Joshua's Reading of The Torquatus Narrative of Epicurean Ethics - From Cicero's "On Ends"

  • Welcome Stevia81!

    • Cassius
    • January 27, 2022 at 6:49 AM

    Welcome stevia81 !

    This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

    Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

    All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

    One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

    In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

    1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
    2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
    3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
    4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
    5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
    6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
    7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
    8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
    9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
    10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
    11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
    12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

    It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

    And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

    Welcome to the forum!


    &thumbnail=medium


    &thumbnail=medium














  • Welcome Ayraj!

    • Cassius
    • January 26, 2022 at 10:49 AM

    Ayraj I definitely wanted to be sure you saw this link. Please join us if you can: "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #1: Who Was Frances Wright, Introduction, and Chapter One (Jan 30 8:00 PM EST)

  • AFDIA - Chapter One - Text and Discussion

    • Cassius
    • January 26, 2022 at 8:56 AM

    Discussion Points For This Chapter:

    Chapter 1 Summary– First Meeting of Theon and Epicurus

    1. Theon (a new student sent by his father from Corinth to Athens to learn philosophy) exits an assembly of the Stoic school. He is incensed by what he has heard about the depravity of the Epicurean school.
    2. Theon meets a stranger on the road. It is Epicurus, but he does not identify himself.
    3. Epicurus jokes about Theon appearing to be a follower of Plato, since he talks of gods, then jokes that Theon cannot be a Stoic if he is interested in a guide.
    4. Epicurus advises Theon to have confidence in himself.
    5. Epicurus advises Theon to visit other schools so as to learn and compare them.
    6. Epicurus invites Theon into his home and announces to Theon – “I am Epicurus.”

    Topic Questions:

    1. “Can you pick out aspects of the story that are distinctly references to positions of Epicurean philosophy?”
      1. Why is asking for a guide inconsistent with Stoicism?
      2. As for visiting other schools to compare them, this question is asked of the Stoic student in Lucian's Hermotimus.
  • Zoom Book Club For "A Few Days In Athens"

    • Cassius
    • January 26, 2022 at 5:01 AM

    I just updated the Event Description to say that we will cover in session one:

    1 - Who Was Frances Wright?

    2 - The Introduction

    3 - Chapter One

  • Planning For A Weekly EpicureanFriends Zoom Meeting in 2022

    • Cassius
    • January 25, 2022 at 8:10 PM

    Cassius Amicus is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

    Topic: Cassius Amicus' Zoom Meeting Tuesday January 25

    Time: Jan 25, 2022 08:30 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

    Join Zoom Meeting

    Join our Cloud HD Video Meeting
    Zoom is the leader in modern enterprise video communications, with an easy, reliable cloud platform for video and audio conferencing, chat, and webinars across…
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    Meeting ID: 880 3366 8240

    Passcode: 480971

    One tap mobile

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    Find your local number: https://us06web.zoom.us/u/ketHDFOoVV

  • Happy Birthday EricR!

    • Cassius
    • January 25, 2022 at 5:48 PM

    Yes please be sure to post again when the site launches!

  • Happy Birthday EricR!

    • Cassius
    • January 25, 2022 at 4:06 PM

    Good to hear from you Eric! I wonder if you did any new music to celebrate your birthday? If you did there at least a couple of new people here who might like a sample.

  • Planning For A Weekly EpicureanFriends Zoom Meeting in 2022

    • Cassius
    • January 25, 2022 at 2:31 PM

    I added to the calendar that we'll post a Zoom link in the Calendar thread 30 minutes or so before start time

  • Zoom Book Club For "A Few Days In Athens"

    • Cassius
    • January 25, 2022 at 7:03 AM

    For those who use facebook this is the announcement page there:

    https://www.facebook.com/events/332030028928098

  • Episode One Hundred Six - The Epicurean Attitude Toward Fate / Fortune and the Role of Reason

    • Cassius
    • January 24, 2022 at 10:16 PM

    Yes I definitely think that the Q/A approach is a part of the issue. Unfortunately I think we are stumbling because there also appear to be very detailed and complex questions about logical methods which are not something most of us have any experience in discussing, or any real enjoyment in discussing. It is like that Seneca quote on mouse and cheese and very off putting.

    But the thread that we are only beginning to grasp is that apparently Epicurus was already staking out a position that he thought would stop the abuses to which logic was being put, and I think it would be highly desirable for us to at least be able to describe that in generalities that are still accurate enough to keep Martin from getting too exasperated with me! :)

    Wait til you finally read through the On Methods of Inference (if you have not yet) and you will see how hard it is to even understand what the general issues are.

    It does however appear to be possible to summarize the issues, according to the commentators, but as for myself I am just not there yet.

  • "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #1: Who Was Frances Wright, Introduction, and Chapter One (Jan 30 8:00 PM EST) (Sun, Jan 30th 2022, 8:00 pm-9:00 pm)

    • Cassius
    • January 24, 2022 at 7:55 PM

    I should be able to handle a twenty-minute summary on Frances Wright and Chapter One for the opening of this Zoom meeting, but if any of our regulars here would like to volunteer to stand ready in case I fall short I would certainly appreciate it.

    I have no clue how many people we will have, but I expect a significant number of totally new people, so if would probably be best if we have some regulars ready to help lead the discussion in case things go too far off beam.

    No need to commit to anything now but I will appreciate the help from anyone who has either (1) already read the book, or (2) is just a good talker!

  • "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #1: Who Was Frances Wright, Introduction, and Chapter One (Jan 30 8:00 PM EST) (Sun, Jan 30th 2022, 8:00 pm-9:00 pm)

    • Cassius
    • January 24, 2022 at 7:43 PM

    Gosh this is the first time I have used the "Schedule Event" feature and I hope I have not created a monster. I have listed everyone here who has level 3 status, plus others who have indicated interest. i have no idea what kind of emails or notifications you are going to get - I hope it is not too much.

    Also i think we are probably better off with an 8:00 PM eastern time to start, so my apologies to anyone for whom this start time won't work. Let's see what happens with this first one and perhaps we can adjust.

  • "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #1: Who Was Frances Wright, Introduction, and Chapter One (Jan 30 8:00 PM EST) (Sun, Jan 30th 2022, 8:00 pm-9:00 pm)

    • Cassius
    • January 24, 2022 at 7:37 PM

    Cassius started a new event:

    Event

    "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #1: Who Was Frances Wright, Introduction, and Chapter One (Jan 30 8:00 PM EST)

    This will be the first session on "A Few Days In Athens.' We will talk about (1) Who was Frances Wright? (2) The Introduction, and (3) Chapter One. The plan will be to move on to Chapter Two next week.

    The rough agenda for our one hour session is:

    1 - Twenty Minute or so overview of Frances Wright, the Introduction, and Chapter One by led Cassius and any other volunteer regular forum participants who have read the whole book.

    2 - Brief introduction of everyone on the call. (We will go around…
    Sun, Jan 30th 2022, 8:00 pm – 9:00 pm
    Cassius
    January 24, 2022 at 7:37 PM

    Quote

    This will be the first session on "A Few Days In Athens.' We will talk about (1) Who was Frances Wright? (2) The Introduction, and (3) Chapter One. The plan will be to move on to Chapter Two next week.

    The rough agenda for our one hour session is:

    1 - Twenty Minute or so overview of Frances Wright, the Introduction, and Chapter One by led Cassius and any other volunteer regular forum participants who have read the whole book.

    2 - Brief introduction of everyone on the call. (We will go around the zoom list and ask everyone to say their first names (real or otherwise) and tell us about their background and interest in Epicurus. For example: "My name is Joshua, I am from (country), and I have been interested in Epicurus ever since _______________. I have read (describe how many books on Epicurus you have read) and I have / have not read the entire "A Few Days In Athens."

    3 - After we do the introductions, we will then open the floor for open discussion of Chapter one from all participants. Depending on how many people we have we will probably use the "raise your hand" method of going around the table. with Cassius or other moderator calling on people to keep the conversation organized. We will monitor the text chat also and people can use that to indicate that they want to speak, and what about.

    We will see how his format works and make adjustments in future meetings.

    Note: The use of video is strictly optional. We anticipate many of our friends will choose to use audio only.

    A ZOOM LINK WILL BE ADDED HERE SHORTLY BEFORE THE MEETING.

    Cassius Amicus is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

    Topic: A Few Days In Athens Zoom Meeting

    Time: Jan 30, 2022 08:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

    Join Zoom Meeting

    https://us06web.zoom.us/j/81405787401?…2FCYTE2TnNDZz09

    Meeting ID: 814 0578 7401

    Passcode: 203583

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    Find your local number: https://us06web.zoom.us/u/kdRzXZ4CDP



    Link to Book: http://www.afewdaysinathens.com/   

    https://archive.org/.../fewdaysinathe.../page/n5/mode/2up...

    Link to Ongoing Discussion of Chapter One (the place to discuss Chapter One into the future). AFDIA - Chapter One


    Links:

    "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #1

    https://www.facebook.com/events/332030028928098

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/EpicureanPhilosophy/posts/4715137858535137/

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  • Episode One Hundred Six - The Epicurean Attitude Toward Fate / Fortune and the Role of Reason

    • Cassius
    • January 24, 2022 at 5:38 PM

    Following up on Godrey's comment on concepts and Don's on Logic v Dialectic, this is where the older translations are superior to bailey:


    This is Yonge:

    The Lives And Opinions Of Eminent Philosophers - NewEpicurean Annotated Version : Charles D. Yonge : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    Lives and Opinions of Ancient Philosophers, with Chapter X devoted to Epicurus
    archive.org


    And here is Hicks, who follows Yonge:


    Lives of eminent philosophers : Diogenes Laertius : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    Includes indexes
    archive.org


    I would say:

    1 - This is an example of scholarship going backward over time (if I have the time sequence correct) because Bailey is the most voluminous commentator on Epicurus in recent years to have published a translation, and in my reading he is cited to far more often than is Hicks or Yonge. And he has the most extensive public domain version with commentary (The "Extant Remains" book).

    2 - While it looks more appropriate to use "dialectic" rather than "logic," that really doesn't answer the question because as cited above the term is generally now being referred to as "dialectical logic" to reference a particular form or type of logic.

    As Martin is saying we are not warring with ALL logic, but on the other hand it is a huge point that the Epicureans were indeed warring with certain types of logic, and not just something that can be adequately referred to as a misuse of what everyone agrees is "logic." Most of the discussion is taking place in terms of "types of logic" so we need to be able to understand what the commentators are talking about.

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