Posts by Cassius

I have pinned this thread to the top of the "Relationships" forum. There are a huge number of issues that can be picked out of Raphael's post and discussed. If this thread gets long and goes off in different directions we can break it into sub-threads over time so don't worry too much about staying on topic with the most recent post in the thread.

At a zoom meeting tonight we discussed that the topics we need to cover include:

• How does Epicurean philosophy respond in non-political ways to these issues. The wider society issues are part of the facts but not something we ourselves can change. What we CAN chanage is what we do in response to those facts.
• What considerations need to be included in evaluating total pleasure and pain factors arising from these issues?
• How do we balance the fact that any one person can have only a limited impact on society with the history we have of Diogenes of Oinoanda and Lucretius and Epicurus himself devoting much time to "outreach" beyond their own immediate families / circles of friends?
• Is it possible to generalize on the value of spouses and children? These always involve gambles. Do we read Epicurus and Lucretius as saying that the gamble of marriage and children is stacked against us so that we should generally NOT take such chances? Or are decisions like this always contextual? If so what aspects of the context do we generally look toward?

There are many ways at getting at some of these issues, some more mundane than others. Here's a more real-world question:

Did Emily Austin make a mistake in entitling her book "Living For Pleasure?" Should she have titled it "Living For Ataraxia/Tranquility"?

Quote from Max DuBoff

.But the relevant point is that the absence of pain is the important part, rather than any kind of quantity of pleasure or something like that.

If taken literally, this would be a statement that "absence of pain" is a totally separate thing from "any kind or quantity of pleasure" -- in other words - absence of pain is not pleasure at all. Is that your view?

It would probably also be helpful to know more about what you mean in your words as the "additive concept of pleasure." It would seem clear that Epicurus is saying that it is not necessary to add ever-increasing quantities of pleasure ad infinitum to have a happy life. But on the other hand he is also saying that pleasure alpha / omega / goal of life - that a life of happiness is a life of pleasure - so obviously some measure of pleasure is involved.

How would you renconcile those perspectives?

William do you mind breaking apart the quotes and putting a separate thread under each of the names? That will make them easier to find in the future -- if you have enough to make that worthwhile

Quote from Don

PD3 doesn't say The limit of "tranquility" is the removal of all pains. It says the limit of pleasure is the removal all pain. I won't belabor this, but if there are only two feelings - pleasure and pain - if all of one is removed, you're left with the other.

This is a key observation and very well stated.

Of course, the advocates of "tranquility/ataraxia" as the ultimate goal, rather than happiness based on pleasure as Diogenes of Oinoanda shouted about and Torquatus explains at length, have plenty of arguments up their sleeves. One of the arguments to watch out for amounts to: "It doesn't matter that PD3 refers to the limit of quantity of pleasure. Tranquility/ataraxia is not pleasure at all - it's higher than and better than pleasure, and that's why it is the true goal of Epicurean philosophy. After all, Epicurus says when all pain is gone we have no need of pleasure -- so what else could he mean other than that tranquility / ataraxia is not a pleasure at all?"

The key answer to that is to point out how the tranquility argument begins to expose itself as a death cult argument. PD2 and Epicurus's foundational statements on death say that "Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved is without sensation; and that which lacks sensation is nothing to us."

Now you can quibble as well (certain people have no problem quibbling til the cows come home) and say - well "pleasure" is not a "sensation" so that view doesn't count. Ataraxia / Tranquility is not a sensation, but you can experience it while you are alive, and Epicurus is really just channeling the Buddhists and Stoics and assorted ascetics by saying what a wonderful thing it is to be numb.

That argument is nonsense, but if you're the type who reads the sweep of Epicurean texts talking about pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, and there are only two feelings, but you can still come back and say "Epicurus said the goal is ataraxia / tranquility" then your'e the type that just likes to argue and not worry about reaching any productive conclusions. For some people, the argument IS the goal. They could care less that there is absolutely no evidence of ancient Epicureans living the kind of hermitic ascetic lifestyle that they are advocating.

"But Epicurus said all he needed was bread and water and a pot of cheese!" That's a nonsense argument, and Don too has pointed out. It would be more persuasive to argue that Epicurus needed that bread and water to feed his slaves and the accountants he would have needed to manage his properties and handle the schools income and support of others.

The Tranquility/Ataraxia/Ascetic construction of Epicurus is not credible, and no one in the ancient world believed it or argued it. The ancient world understood him to be advocating pleasure, in all its forms, and the best evidence is how the Epicureans lived their own lives. There's not a documentable case anywhere of a single Epicurean setting out with a goal of living as a celibate or in sackcloth and ashes or a hovel or a cave or in isolation or on bread and water.

That entire approach is nonsense, even if it is the consensus of Academia.

Quote from Matteng

Today podcast episodes revolve around these questions too; I’m going to listen to them again, starting to rehear from episode 280

Good luck because that's at least 40 hours of listening!

Quote from Matteng

Donald Robertson once wrote me, that avoiding all Pain leads to experiental avoidance what causes mental health problems and is boring.

That's a case in which i would agree with Donald Robertson and would simply repeat that while an Epicurean god might theoretically be ableto do that, Epicurus was dealing with humans so he said that we regularly choose pain when a pleasure that is greater results.

A lot ofthe problem is that the stoics, like cicero, refuse to allow anything as pleasure other than physical stimulation. if they were right, then their argument would be sound, but they refuse to accept Epicurus' division of pleasure and pain in ethics and canonics, just as they refuse to accept his division of atoms and void in physics.

Thanks for that detailed post Raphael. I think you've raised some important questions that are well within our forum rules to discuss. No doubt there are some aspects of what you have brought up that will get close to our forum no-politics rule. I would appreciate as this thread unfolds that participants be sure to focus on the larger pleasure vs. pain calculation issues that Raphael has mentioned as opposed to the "political" implications of overall social policy. The issues you mention have major impact on "us" and are not hypothetical, so I think we can discuss this productively.

I would suggest that one of the most important aspects to discuss is in fact how the article starts out - weighing the practical costs and practical benefits and discussing what factors - physical and mental - we should be considering in our own situations. We are not in a position to dictate social policy to anyone, but we are in a position to discuss how we ourselves should employ Epicurean ideas to respond in our own situations.

For many of us the questions only start with "what happens when we get old and we don't have the support network of younger family that was the norm (even if it wasn't always present) for thousands of years previously."

Episode 340 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "The Fatal Flaw In Socratic Skepticism"

One last comment for now - as to "flourishing" -- what does that word even mean? It's a weasel word that avoids the real question of what is good and what is bad, how to live and how not to live. Nature gives us only the feelings of pleasure and pain as inputs and we must reason based on those, rather than on vague notions of "virtue" or "worth" or "nobility" which are implied to exist under analysis like Aristotle is proposing. And he never establishes an ultimate basis for any such concepts other than looking at what great men of the past have done, and that proves nothing. "Flourishing" means nothing that can be grounded in nature rather than in pure opinion - just like the word "virtue" itself.

Quote from Matteng

4. Pleasure is only an temporary End but in life there is no end but is everlasting activity. Evolution gives no everlasting happiness based on pleasure. Eudaimonia was defined by Aristotles as an activity not an end state. Does a happy person or god do nothing when reached everlasting Absence of Pain ?

Most of this probably does not need an answer except as to the last -- the idea that people would "do nothing" when they achieve "absence of pain" is the real atrocity of the "tranqulity is king" perspective. That attitude achieves what it sets out to do - it reduces Epicureanism to a philosophy of doing nothing, experiencing anothing, achieving nothing.

Ant that's exactly what the historical record shows is the OPPOSITE of the lives that Epicurus and the ancient Epicureans actually lived.

The goal is pleasure, which includes everything in life that is desirable. When there is only two of anything, and one is desirable and the other is undesirable, thenyou want all of the desirable and none of the undesirable. This is not rocket science and the ancient Epicureans understood it so thoroughly that Epicurus thought he had no need to include it in the letter to Menoeceus. He did not have any way of knowing how decadent the world would become 300 years later and how the lack of including it would be twisted to make a philosophy of pleasure into the equivalent of a philosophy of death-worship - the very thing that Hegesius had advocated and the Epicureans rejected.

Quote from Matteng

3. Following human flourishing means social activities, following Pleasure could lead to unsocial immorality actions, when that (unjust activities) give Pleasure, an Epicurean could not have Objections.

This is one of the most disreputable of all the objections. Who gets to define and ordain that "social activities" are good and "unsocial / immoral activities" are bad? We are supposed to just accept THEIR decrees as to what is good and what is bad?

Nature gives individuals only pleasure and pain by which to decide what to pursue and what to avoid. Nature does not write in the sky what all men at all times and all places are required to do as "moral." Epicurus totally objects abstract and absolute standards of virtue and morality because there is no true and real basis for such absolute standards in nature. There are only parficular people living at particular places and particular times, and their feelings of pleasure and pain. As Thomas Jefferson said, "The earth belongs to the living..."

Epicurus states his denial of absolute justice explicitly in the principal doctrines, and Torquatus explains this at great length as to all of the virtues.

Quote from Matteng

2. Following Pleasure directly, leads not always to happiness but sometimes to misery (sugar, drugs, anti-social behaviour). Following to aim at the good life has not that problem (Virtue).

This one is the kind of objection raised by someone who just refuses to read what Epicurus had to say and to think things through categorically and logically, Here's the sequence:

Pleasure and Pain are the only two feelings. Every experience falls in one of those two categories, just like all of the universe is divided into bodies and space.

Epicurus says the goal is Pleasure, because that includes all that is desirable, given that the feeling of pleasure is the only measure of desirability. However there are times that in order to achieve what is desirable (pleasure), we must endure pain in order to obtain greater pleasure. The ONLY reason we are enduring that pain is to achieve pleasure, so the logic of the goal being pleasure is not violated. The amount of pain we choose to endure is less than the pleasure we expect to receive. The logic of pleasure as the goal is not violated by sometimes choosing pain.

And again since the feeling of pleasure is the only measure of what is desirable, there is no "good life" (happiness) other than a life of pleasure. Virtue in Epicurean terms is whatever course of conduct leads to pleasure. Virtue has no absolute abstract meaning as these other people are asserting. Asserting something to be "the good life" without defining the good life as pleasure (which they refuse to do) is absurd.

I see I really only addressed part of those questions, and at the very least 2 and 3 are separate. I will come back when I have more time but i welcome others to chime in as these are common questions.

First, you have to understand that Pleasure to Epicurus was extremely broad, encompassing all that is desirable in life (because it is not painful).

But you're really talking about a time frame issue.

Pleasure is the guide and one of only two feelings, but Epicurus says at the opening of the letter to Menoecus that the goal of life is happiness. When you dril down into the sources you find that a life of happiness means a life in which pleasure is predominating over pain. It is not necessary to eliminate all pain in order to be happy, as Epicurus himself was happy even in pain in his last days.

As Diogenes of Oinoanda said:

Quote

Fr. 32

If, gentlemen, the point at issue between these people and us involved inquiry into «what is the means of happiness?» and they wanted to say «the virtues» (which would actually be true), it would be unnecessary to take any other step than to agree with them about this, without more ado. But since, as I say, the issue is not «what is the means of happiness?» but «what is happiness and what is the ultimate goal of our nature?», I say both now and always, shouting out loudly to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the end of the best mode of life, while the virtues, which are inopportunely messed about by these people (being transferred from the place of the means to that of the end), are in no way an end, but the means to the end. Let us therefore now state that this is true, making it our starting-point.

Torquatus also says something very similar, that a life of happiness is a life of pleasure.

"If then even the glory of the Virtues, on which all the other philosophers love to expatiate so eloquently, has in the last resort no meaning unless it be based on Pleasure, whereas Pleasure is the only thing that is intrinsically attractive and alluring, it cannot be doubted that Pleasure is the one supreme and final Good and that a life of happiness is nothing else than a life of Pleasure."

There is also a David Sedley issue on this:

"Epicurean vs Cyreniac Happiness" which discusses this time frame issue. Pleasure is the ultimate way to describe anything that is desirable. Happiness is a pleasure, but "happiness" as in "a happy life" refers to an assessment as in discussing a "happy life" which is an abstract concept, and this distinguishes the Epicureans from the Cyreniacs as Sedley explains.

DJRazorback tells us:

I'm a retired business executive who has studied Stoicism in great detail, but now in retirement my philosophies on life seem more aligned with Epicurean beliefs, and I am interested in learning more and being part of the Epicurean community.

Thank you,

Welcome djrazorback

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"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

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Welcome to the forum!

Thanks Max. Here's one way to get at some of these issues:

If there are only two feelings, pleasure and pain, which seems well established in the texts by Diogenes Laertius and by Torquatus in On Ends, then where does "Tranquility" fit into that scheme, and how would you say Epicurus defined tranquility?

Of course we want to go to the texts and not to modern commentary, but the direction of this question goes toward the analysis of David Sedley in his "Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics."

Thanks for the kind words Max and it's a pleasure to hear from you.

No doubt you've been reading somewhat on the forum and you've seen that we are a somewhat "opinionated" website, actually trying to build a community true to the ancient model and not just trading information.

In that regard I am very pleased to see the two articles you mentioned, and though I haven't had a chance to read them in full yet, they both seem to indicate a direction that would likely be consistent with what you'll find here. I think most of our participants would agree that "yes" Epicureans do engage in sex, and even marriage, and even having children, not a a universal rule but under the "right circumstances." And that we would do so, when those opportunities arise, because in fact our prime supreme goal is not in fact "Tranquility" but Pleasure, with tranquility being one pleasure - an an important one - but not the only pleasure or the highest, because pleasure includes all experience that is not painful, and that includes joy and delight as well as those that are more "stable." Most of us find it inconceivable that Epicurus would have provided in his will for female minors to be married to members of his school if he had thought he was sentencing them by necessity to a less than happy life.

And likewise as to your article on dying for a friend, most all of us embrace that as well, not just because of the importance to be placed on friendship, as stated throughout the texts, and specifically stated to have been Epicurus's position by Diogenes Laertius, but again because our prime directive is NOT "Tranquility' but happiness based on pleasure, and we are not going to sentence ourselves to living on when the pain of not dying for that friend (again under the right circumstances) would be worse than living on.

You're probably much more familiar with many of these issues than most of us are here, and I'm hopeful that you will be an "ally" on them

Another issue that's regularly debated in general circles is whether Epicurus was simply "covering himself" with his views on religion so he would not have to meet the end of Socrates. Again on that issue, our community takes Epicurus' views on divinity seriously, and while that doesn't fit neatly under the category of "atheist" it does rule out belief in supernatural forces or that there are supernatural gods who choose to favor some people and condemn others.

It's both a privilege and a challenge to have someone like yourself here, because most of our new members have to wade through weeks or months or years to begin to see the importance of these issues, and you come to the table fully stocked - so to speak - with knowledge and opinions on these issues and more.

I hope we can explore some of these issues here in this thread and that you'll let us know your thoughts on these and other key issues which academics have opinion back and forth for so many years.

Again, thanks for taking an interest in the forum and we look forward to hearing more from you!

Welcome Max and glad to have such a distinguished person with us!

Dear Cassius,

I'm confirming that I registered for an account on Epicurean Friends. I mainly did so to let members of the community know about some scholarly articles I have forthcoming: one on why/how an Epicurean can die for a friend, and another on Epicurean approaches to sex. I'm also happy to provide some extra help with tracking down or translating sources if anyone needs; and I'd be happy to come on the podcast.

Wishing you well--and major kudos on your work popularizing Epicureanism! (In addition to being a scholar of Epicureanism, I do consider myself an Epicurean.)

Cheers,

Max DuBoff