Posts by Cassius

Quote from Don

I'm getting it via interlibrary loan soon.

OMG.

Don, you and I and Joshua and many others here have done a creditable job and I'm not going to apologize for what we've done, because I think we're on the right track.

But what little we've done to comment on Philebus and Plato has been woefully incomplete.

I don't know where Arenson ends up yet (other than skimming the conclusion) so I can't say that we'll agree with all of her conclusions, but she's done in this book what we've needed to do for a long time -- go over in detail the arguments against pleasure not only in the Philebus but also in the Republic, and then go through Aristotle's tentative pushback.

Aristotle long before Epicurus had rejected this stupid and woefully insufficient "replenishment" theory of pleasure, which is tied to that cursed "process" and becoming vs being" argument which Aristotle also rejected. We've been talking around Epicurus' rejection of the same thing without getting the full picture in view of how central this "becoming is inferior to being" argument, and the citations she's collected will help us get much closer to where we need to be.

I think I can safely predict that neither you nor most of us here are going to find this to be an "enjoyable" book - at least in the sense of Emily Austin's "Living For Pleasure" because it's highly technical. But the background she provides is going to - I hesitate to say "revolutionize" but something on the same order - how we need to be discussing these issues.

A major difficulty is that she's doing what all academics do - presenting the various arguments without taking strong and immediate positions on which are correct. And many of us aren't going to be able to wade through it.

She covers much of the same ground as Gosling and Taylor, but they were even more frustatingly non-committal as they wade through it. Arenson is being considerably more clear in the implications of what's going on. And Socrates and Plato are just abominations who deserve to be exposed for the folly or maliciousness of their arguments, not simply viewed as being "clever" -- which itself appears to be a key word.

All this denunciation of pleasure as not the true good because it is a "process" rather than an "end" is definitely "clever" - but it's cleverness in the employment of something very much to be rejected.

I have a long way to go before finishing, and this is definitely not going to be a book for "everyone." But it's exactly the resource that those of us who are really trying to work through this need.

It is highly irritating to me that this has been out for over five years without me spending more time on it long ago.

That's a large part of why all this has to be a team effort.

Added to the files section here:

File

Life And Works Of Hermarchus of Mytilene

This is the second installment of the Co-founders of the Garden project. Unfortunately, it is also the last one since there's not enough transmitted material about Polyaenus of Lampsacus to create a similar compilation about him.

Cassius

July 31, 2026 at 12:39 PM

I have spent the morning listening to the first two chapters of the Arenson book, which is focused on what is said about Pleasure in the Republic and Philebus.

The whole structure of holding being to be better than becoming and the need to discuss "limits" is deeply disturbing to me in listening to this.

So much of this discussion of being vs becoming and limited vs unlimited is just unadulterated trash - it is very similar to religious discussion of angels dancing on pinheads.

This is likely to radicalize me further: Thomas Jefferson was far too lenient in his conclusions about Plato and other Greeks like the Stoics. These word games are as deceptive and manipulative as any religion ever invented.

Epicurus was right to point out their logical fallacies, but lingering too long in disputing them plays into their hands by distracting from a common sense understanding of pleasure and pain.

Probably the smartest this Torquatus said was at the beginning when he said that Epicurus refused to admit any need for argument or discussion to prove that pleasure is desirable and pain is to be avoided.

I am beginning to see this as very close to the argument as go religion. Yes it is good to point out that the religious view of the nature of divinity is flawed, but it makes no sense to spend your life debating priests about the supernatural.

And yes it makes sense to point out that the logic of the anti-pleasure arguments is wrong, but it makes no sense to argue forever about logical definitions of how to slice and dice pleasure into logical but meaningless categories.

It's as big a mistake to speculate endlessly about categories of pleasures as it is to speculate whether gods speak Greek or Latin.

If our goal is to better the lives of real people rather than pinheads, it's far better to stick to basic points and then work to apply them in real life, not just debate about words and definitions.

To clarify - this is an excellent book for those who want to understand how we got to where we are. Unfortunately those who need it most are probably the least likely to read it.

Quote from Matteng

I would decide against it precisely because one loses one's freedom and connection to the real world; returning is difficult to impossible, and one sacrifices everything.

It is very interesting to see how individual people either deal with or refuse to deal with hypotheticals. It's certainly very important to evaluate whether the hypothetical is possible in reality or not.

But the purpose of a logical possibility is to exactly test the premise by abstracting out what are current realities. "But it's not possible" is essential to real life and it's why we choose real life over fantasy --- but some people are going to say that it is avoiding the question, and I do not think that they should be faulted to say that.

In this case the part I quoted above does not grapple with the question at hand.

Because in logical terms the answer to what is quoted above is clear --- why would you care about "freedom" or "connection to the real world" unless they bring pleasure?

That's why Kally Arenson made the statement she did -- NOTHING -- even "reality" or "being human" or anything else -- is desirable in itself unless it brings pleasure. Exempting ANYTHING from that test -- does it bring pleasure? -- is not good logic from the standpoint of logic alone.

If one chooses to play logic games, then rather than step outside of the philosophic position that pleasure is the supreme good, it would probably be better to say more like:

Logic is not truly useful unless its premises are grounded in reality, Your hypothetical is not grounded in realty, so I refuse to waste my time with it, just like Epicurus refused to entertain a hypothetical about necessity as to whether Hermarchus must be alive or dead tomorrow.

Thanks for that update Morgan!

Quote from Don

*My statement here assumes anyone would even notice if I was quiet or not. I apologize for the narcissism inherent in saying that.

It is a shame that i could hit only one reaction. I hit like but I would have liked to LOL at the stame time.

Quote from Kalosyni

The EpicureanFriends forum policy is intended to make sure that the clarity of the objective (the Epicurean summum bonum) as being pleasure, is not lost by substituting something else as the "supreme good."

Yes that's basically it.

Don is an invaluable member of the forum and his absence absolutely has been noticed.

I've said a lot about the general topic already and I'll have a lot more to say in the future, but at the moment here's what seems most appropriate:

This past weekend I and several of us here watched Christos Yapiyakis - for whom I also have tremendous respect - give a presentation on Thomas Jefferson and Epicurus to a ladies' American Hellenic Association. It caught my eye during the presentation, and afterward when I reviewed the slides that Christos sent me, that the focus words for the slides and the talk were almost entirely about "happiness" with only one or two minor uses of the word "pleasure" during the entire talk.

Jumping around here to make a connection, I saw in my email yesterday that Hiram Crespo - for whom I also have a lot of respect - posted the following quote from Michael Onfray:

Quote

Pleasure scares people. They are scared of the word and the actions, reality, and discourses around it. It either scares people or makes them hysterical. There are too many private and personal issues, too many alienating, intimate, painful, wretched, and miserable details. There are secret and hidden deficiencies. There are too many things in the way of just being, living, and enjoying. Hence, people reject the word. They produce spiteful critique that is aggressive and in bad faith or that is simply evasive. Disrespect, discredit, contempt, and disdain are all means for avoiding the subject of pleasure. – Michel Onfray

What Onfray is talking about is essentially the reason there's a need for a "policy" for our educational/promotional work at EpicureanFriends.

Yes if and when I myself give a talk to a mature ladies' club i am going to lead with connections they are familiar with, such as Thomas Jefferson. We've done a lot of that here at the forum. And yes it's fully appropriate to talk about "tending gardens" and using other ways to get conversations going with people who view you with suspicion.

But for better or worse and not entirely by choice or forethought, EpicureanFriends has become the "fundamentalist Epicurean" platform on the internet. And that's where the message gets boiled down to its essentials.

When you start with the foundation that there are no supernatural gods and therefore no absolute foundations for morality, and no life of any kind after death, what you immediately have to face is being clear about what your standard for living is going to be, and in Epicurean terms that is pleasure and pain. Yes there there are all sorts of important things to be said about mental pleasure and bodily pleasure and the many types of pleasure and pain to be chosen from and avoided, but the only way you get to that discussion in he first place is to first identify that its pleasure that constitutes what is desirable, rather than piety or logic or any other definition of "the good."

We're all under the tremendous pressure that Onfray mentions to avoid using the term pleasure, and to find some other term that is more acceptable to those who totally reject Epicurus' worldview. And we all have very different circumstances -- age, sex, health, nationality, education level, and on and on -- that play into what each of us find to be the type of pleasure that we find to be most desirable. But in the Epicurean analysis all of those types fall under the single category of pleasure. Given the nature of the universe there's no single way to look at the "most pleasant" other than the target being "all pleasure and no pain." That's how you end up talking about absence of pain as a way of defining the goal, but if you don't explain that background, you end up playing right into the hands of those who want to eliminate "pleasure" from the discussion.

That substitution of "absence of pain" in the place of pleasure is exactly what Hieronymus of Rhodes did, but which it's amply clear that Epicurus refused to do.

Epicurus' logic in rejecting Hieronymus's view is easy to understand:

When you get to the limit of pleasure you haven't left behind all the bodily and mental pleasures you've accumulated to get there. You still have those pleasures -- it's just that you're now experiencing those same pleasures without any mixture of pains.

Episode 344 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "What Is Our Mind's Role In Determining Truth?"

This episode will be up later today - in the meantime as a note to myself and Joshua, we discuss in this one that the Stoic position is that some perceptions are so clear that they cannot be denied -- and yet the stoics are talking about "assent" to the perception as required. Now, how the stoics square their requirement for "assent' to their view that essentially all things are determined / preordained by their nature/god is a contradiction that we'll want to address as we go further.

For Epicurus, there is no such contradiction, because there are no perceptions which are so clearly true that they cannot possibly be false. With Epicurus, ALL perceptions are constantly weighed against the anticipations, feelings, and senses, and our formation of opinions are in our minds (never in the senses themselves) so the praise or blame for reaching correct opinions is always in play. It's always up to us to assess things accurately, there are no divine "marks" or "signs" that can always be considered to be the indicia of truth.

We left this point hanging because we ran out of time, but we'll come back to this next week when we continue comparing this to Socrates' positions in The Republic.

Note -- Godfrey posted that this "Health Hedonism" book by Erica Oberg is relevant to the "health" aspect of the Arenson book.

I am still in the process of reading this book but I have added it to the "recommended" section along with the DeWitt and Austin books for several reasons:

1. Generally, she takes a modified "Gosling & Taylor" approach and does not read "kinetic pleasure" out off the goal of Epicurean philosophy.

2. More specifically, these two paragraphs quoted below are a compelling argument against anyone who wants to argue that the Epicurean goal is "health" rather than pleasure. This is an excellent point and observation - I'd put it on par in terms of insight with Emily Austin's suggestion in Chapter 22 of Living For Pleasure that Lucretius likely intended to end Book Six of his poem with additional material from Thucydides. In what I am about to quote Arenson raises a point that is of even greater practical importance.

I have added the underlines to emphasize the issue.

Quote from Kelly Arenson - Health and Hedonism In Plato And Epicurus - p 161

Given that the Epicureans stress how important health and the awareness of it is to happiness, one lingering question is why they do not identify health rather than pleasure as our highest and innate good. Why factor hedonism into the equation at all? It seems they could have gone the route of Plato’s Republic and claimed that although the best life is pleasant, our aim should be the internal harmony that engenders the pleasure rather than the pleasure itself. Perhaps this is just a version of Cicero’s objection that the Epicureans seem to propose two distinct goals: pleasure and the absence of pain. If the Epicureans understand the absence of pain in terms of health, then why not say that the end is health rather than pleasure? Perhaps the Epicureans do not stop at health because they are interested in describing the telos in terms of human feelings: that is, even if health were ontologically or epistemologically the best condition for humans, Epicureans would not be interested unless health also felt the best. We get the sense that in Plato’s eyes the just life will still be the best even if it is not the most pleasant: a just soul is always ontologically better than an unjust one. But the goal of Epicureanism is to help people feel better—to lessen their anxiety, help them avoid frustrated desires, and enable them to enjoy their lives. To say that health itself is the goal, divorced from our perceptions of how health feels, would be nonsensical to Epicureans, who would argue that health is worth talking about at all only because of its connection to the feeling of pleasure.

I think this point is related to Epicurus’ rejection of philosophy as an end in itself. For the most part, Epicurus advises us to concern ourselves with philosophy insofar as it will lead to pleasure. Th is position is expressed in an Epicurean work of unknown origin, reported by Porphyry: “Empty is that philosopher’s reasoning by which no human affliction is cured. For just as there is no benefit in the medical art if it does not cure the diseases of bodies, so there is no benefit in philosophy if it does not drive affliction out of the soul.” According to Epicureans, we should learn the truth about the gods, the limits of pain, and our abilities to get what we desire because having this knowledge enables us to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. We will have no use for philosophy if it should fail to bring about painless mental and physical experiences, and we will have no use for health if it should fail to do the same. Th is is not to say that Epicureans envision a contingent connection between health and pleasure; they argue, as I have tried to show in this study, that our experience of health—either in the process toward achieving it or in the condition itself—is intrinsically related to pleasure. Nevertheless, Epicureans would say that were health not linked to pleasure in this way, there would be no reason to care about health’s ontological credentials.

This is very perceptive. It's devastating to the argument that the true goal isn't Pleasure, and to arguments that state or imply that we don't need pleasure - "all we need is health of mind and body." Why did they talk so much about pleasure if all they wanted was "health"???

Amazon description: This book links Plato and Epicurus, two of the most prominent ethicists in the history of philosophy, exploring how Platonic material lays the conceptual groundwork for Epicurean hedonism. It argues that, despite their significant philosophical differences, Plato and Epicurus both conceptualize pleasure in terms of the health and harmony of the human body and soul. It turns to two crucial but underexplored sources for understanding Epicurean pleasure: Plato's treatment of psychological health and pleasure in the Republic, and his physiological account of bodily harmony, pleasure, and pain in the Philebus.

Kelly Arenson shows first that, by means of his mildly hedonistic and sometimes overtly anti-hedonist approaches, Plato sets the agenda for future discussions in antiquity of the nature of pleasure and its role in the good life. She then sets Epicurus' hedonism against the backdrop of Plato's ontological and ethical assessments of pleasure, revealing a trend in antiquity to understand pleasure and pain in terms of the replenishment and maintenance of an organism's healthy functioning.

They just keep coming....

Last week's transcript, on which we'll build this week

I think someone is trolling me - or the world is just getting dumber - or both!

But whoever is producing this is doing a great job showing how NOT to approach Epicurus.

Randres61 tells us -

Good afternoon,

I hold a degree in Biology, although I spent my entire professional career working in software development, designing and building computer applications. If you wish, you can find my profile on LinkedIn. As you can see, my professional background is, at first sight, quite different from the main focus of your forum.

I retired two years ago, and since I have always had a strong interest in philosophy—especially ethics—I now devote a significant part of my time to studying it on my own.

A few years ago I discovered Epicurus' ethical philosophy, and I began searching for and reading books about his thought, first in Spanish and later in English. During that search for reliable sources of information, I came across your forum through a ChatGPT recommendation while looking for high-quality resources on Epicureanism.

Although my initial interest was centered on Epicurus' ethics and his reflections on death, the more I have studied his work, the more I have come to understand that his philosophy should be viewed as a coherent and integrated whole, encompassing physics, canonics, theology, and, of course, ethics.

What I find particularly compelling is that Epicurus' philosophy is not merely an abstract intellectual system. On the contrary, I believe it offers practical guidance for dealing with many aspects of everyday life, which makes it both deeply meaningful and highly relevant.

I have registered on your forum because I hope to learn from its members and to deepen my understanding of Epicurean philosophy.

As a further indication of my interest in the subject, this year I will begin a two-year university program for senior students focusing on the history of philosophy, ethics, and political philosophy.

I look forward to your response. Before closing, I would also like to apologize for any limitations in my English, as I am still working to improve it.

Kind regards,

Premià de Mar - Barcelona - (Spain)

Welcome randres61

There is one last step to complete your registration: All new registrants must email Cassius so that this Welcome Thread can contain basic information about your background and interest in Epicurus. In that email, please tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. All posting here is subject to our Community Standards, Participation Levels, and Posting Policies -- please read that page; it explains our ground rules and will save everyone time and friction.

ALSO - the Forum has an editorial policy as to the advocacy of anything other than Pleasure as what Epicurus taught to be the supreme good. All prospective members must read this post before proceeding with an account at Epicureanfriends.coom:

Against Katastematic Supremacy - Pleasure Is A Unified Good, Not A House Divided Against Itself - INCLUDES FORUM EDITORIAL POLICY

If you have not done so already, please be sure you have read Torquatus' Presentation of Epicurean Ethics (also available in a more compact side-by-side format at EpicurusToday.com). That is the clearest, most complete statement of Epicurean ethics to survive from antiquity, and reading it early will save you -- and us -- a great deal of confusion. Most people arrive with a version of "Epicureanism" assembled from the Tetrapharmakon, the Letter to Menoeceus, or scattered quotations of questionable reliability -- and of the three, the Tetrapharmakon is the least reliable foundation of all. It is many times more compressed even than the Letter, and terse enough that it has been read in sharply different, sometimes incompatible ways by different interpreters; at best it serves as a reminder of Epicurus's four main topics for someone who already knows their content, not as a source of that content. The Letter to Menoeceus is a real summary, but it too is compressed and was written for students who already understood the foundations of Epicurean ethics. Torquatus is the best surviving example of how Epicurus's own well-educated students understood and presented that foundation themselves. It is the fastest and most reliable way to find out whether what you already believe about Epicurus matches what he and his school actually taught.

The moderators here are well aware that many fans of Epicurus hold sincerely-held views about what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with this forum's purpose. This forum exists specifically for people committed to classical Epicurean positions, not for reconciling those positions with modern "eclectic" reinterpretations that borrow Epicurus's name while rejecting his actual conclusions. Reading Torquatus first is the quickest way to see where that line falls, before investing time in posts that argue against the very foundations this forum exists to defend.

All of us here arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies. We don't demand of others what we weren't able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is different enough from most other philosophies that understanding how deep those differences run simply takes time. That's why we have participation levels that give new members room to learn, but it's also why we have standards that can mean arguments being limited, or participants removed, when the purpose of the community requires it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, isn't committed to unlimited free speech within its own meetings, and isn't organized around anything except the pursuit of truth and a happy life through pleasure as Epicurus explained it.

Please tell us a little about your background reading Epicurean texts, how you found this forum, and what particularly interests you -- that context helps us help you. Our Getting Started page also has ideas for using the site.

Beyond Torquatus, two books will do the most to deepen your understanding quickly. Norman DeWitt's Epicurus and His Philosophy is the single best book-length treatment available. DeWitt treats Epicurus as a coherent system rather than filtering him through later Stoic, Platonic, or modern secular assumptions. If you read one book beyond the ancient sources, make it this one.

Emily Austin's Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life is a clear, engaging modern introduction that many of our members have found a useful on-ramp. Read it, but read it alongside Torquatus and DeWitt rather than in their place, since like most modern treatments it makes no attempt to give the full picture that DeWitt provides.

From there, Epicurus's own surviving letters -- to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus -- and Lucretius's On The Nature of Things are also on the essential reading list. Our Recommended Reading page has a fuller list for when you're ready to go further. None of this is required before you participate, but the more of it you've read -- starting with Torquatus -- the more you'll get out of being here.

Welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately I've never received any info on the first program but I did just receive this as a reminder for today

The Hellenic American Women's Council – HAWC Great Lakes Region – under the auspices of the Consulate General of Greece in Chicago -cordially invite you to commemorate the 250^th anniversary of American Independence in a two-session online program on

Thomas Jefferson and the Art of Happiness in Epicurean Philosophy

Our two speakers Mr. Panagiotis Panagiotopoulos and Dr. Christos Yapijakis – Co-Founders of the "Society of Epicurus" – Garden of Athens – http://www.epicuros.gr/ will present to us how the Epicurean Philosophy inspired and influenced Thomas Jefferson – one of the Founders of the United States of America, Author of the Declaration of Independence, and 3^rd President.

The 1^st session was presented by Author Panagiotis Panagiotopoulos on Saturday, June 27^th, 2026 at 1:00 p.m. C.T. (9:00 p.m. Greek Time)

2^nd session: Saturday, July 25^th, 2026

at 10:00 a.m. Central Time U.S. and Canada (6:00 p.m. Greek Time)

"I too am an Epicurean "

Thomas Jefferson

The pursuit of happiness in the Declaration of Independence

and Epicurean Philosophy

by Dr. Christos Yapijakis

Register at https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/regist…QSA6dpwAXGQJw1A

We would like to thank Cosmos Press / Dina Ress for her generous support in the preparation of the program.

You may register and share the attached program with family and friends.

All the best,

Dr. Christina Georgakis

HAWC Director Educational / Cultural programs

I know that PD06 has translation issues, but In this discussion of deception both it (especially in Bailey's preferred reading) and other statements about the result being what matters probably has a bearing on Epicurus' attitude toward deception and other actions that some presume to be "always" bad.

PD06. In order that men might not fear one another, there was a natural benefit to be had from government and kingship, provided that they are able to bring about this result. PD06: The translation given is by Mensch. Formerly we used Eugene O’Connor from “The Essential Epicurus": "Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good.” Bailey: “To secure protection from men anything is a natural good by which you may be able to attain this end.” New Greek Version: “In order to obtain security from other people, there was (always) the natural good of sovereignty and kingship, through which (someone) once could have accomplished this.” This version is up for review given that the Greek for sovereignty and kingship clearly appears in the text but is emended out by Usener and others. See the discussion of PD06 for further detail.

Listening to the first part of that reminds me that PENELOPE is also using deception to put off the suitors - but of course only an extreme Stoic would fault her for that?

The role of deception here and how to evaluate it is clearly critical --- and I'd presume that Epicurus would NOT take the position that deception (or any other vice the Stoics would presume to be bad) is "always" bad.

Quote from Lowri834

n case anyone wants some background on The Odyssey, also mentions the lying…

That British accent really adds a lot - and the humor too!