Posts by Cassius

I've only gotten through only the first 5 or so minutes so far but I definitely agree with you so far Matteng. What he's describing in what I am seeing is definitely reflective of this Epicurean / anti-Epicurean split. Thanks for posting this. He's calling it emotivist but it's basically just pleasure and pain in other words.

However I also have to say this: I personally find this method of presentation to be the kind of "academic" / intellectualist approach on which the British have an eternal and unchallengeable trademark. I personally find it to be a major turnoff, and I've built up the ability to tolerate it in small doses only after many years.

Watch the first five minutes, and if you can tolerate it there's a lot of good information here. But the tone reminds me of why so many "normal" people detest most philosophy, so be careful!

I have to apologize to claire46 because I set up the account but did not finish approving it. That's now done so I'm tagging claire46 to be sure a notification goes out. Glad to have you and welcome!

In this week's text Cicero is going to say "For I am persuaded that we are prepared and fortified sufficiently, by the disputations of the foregoing days, against our own death, or that of our friends, against grief and the other perturbations of the mind. But pain seems to be the sharpest adversary of virtue..."

In that regard I want us to return to Cicero's statement in the preceding section "for I do not apprehend how past pleasures can allay present evils"

As I mentioned in the thread to last week's episode, this is a direct challenge for us to give our best reasoning to support the use of pleasures (of the past, present, or future) to "offset" or "array against" current pains.

• Quote

  Nor did he take any trouble to provide himself with those remedies which might have enabled him to bear pain; such as firmness of mind, a shame of doing anything base, exercise, and the habit of patience, precepts of courage, and a manly hardiness: but he says that he supports himself on the single recollection of past pleasures, as if any one, when the weather was so hot as that he was scarcely able to bear it, should comfort himself by recollecting that he was once in my country Arpinum, where he was surrounded on every side by cooling streams: for I do not apprehend how past pleasures can allay present evils. But when he says that a wise man is always happy, who would have no right to say so if he were consistent with himself, what may they not do, who allow nothing to be desirable, nothing to be looked on as good but what is honourable? Let, then, the Peripatetics and old Academics follow my example, and at length leave off muttering to themselves; and openly and with a clear voice let them be bold to say, that a happy life may not be inconsistent with the agonies of Phalaris's bull.

Welcome to Episode 315 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
   
We are closing in on the end of those portions of Tusculan Disputations that are most relevant to Epicurean philosophy today, so we'll pick up this week after Section 27 of Part 5.

Quote

XXVII.

But to dismiss the subtleties of the Stoics, which I am sensible I have employed more than was necessary, let us admit of three kinds of goods: and let them really be kinds of goods, provided no regard is had to the body, and to external circumstances, as entitled to the appellation of good in any other sense than because we are obliged to use them: but let those other divine goods spread themselves far in every direction, and reach the very heavens. Why, then, may I not call him happy, nay, the happiest of men, who has attained them? Shall a wise man be afraid of pain? which is, indeed, the greatest enemy to our opinion. For I am persuaded that we are prepared and fortified sufficiently, by the disputations of the foregoing days, against our own death, or that of our friends, against grief and the other perturbations of the mind. But pain seems to be the sharpest adversary of virtue: that it is which menaces us with burning torches; that it is which threatens to crush our fortitude, and greatness of mind, and patience. Shall virtue then yield to this? Shall the happy life of a wise and consistent man succumb to this? Good Gods! how base would this be! Spartan boys will bear to have their bodies torn by rods without uttering a groan. I myself have seen at Lacedæmon, troops of young men, with incredible earnestness contending together with their hands and feet, with their teeth and nails, nay even ready to expire, rather than own themselves conquered. Is any country of barbarians more uncivilized or desolate than India? Yet they have amongst them some that are held for wise men, who never wear any clothes all their life long, and who bear the snow of Caucasus, and the piercing cold of winter, without any pain: and who if they come in contact with fire endure being burned without a groan. The women too, in India, on the death of their husbands have a regular contest, and apply to the judge to have it determined which of them was best beloved by him; for it is customary there for one man to have many wives. She in whose favour it is determined exults greatly, and being attended by her relations is laid on the funeral pile with her husband: the others, who are postponed, walk away very much dejected. Custom can never be superior to nature: for nature is never to be got the better of. But our minds are infected by sloth and idleness, and luxury, and languor, and indolence: we have enervated them by opinions, and bad customs. Who is there who is unacquainted with the customs of the Egyptians? Their minds being tainted by pernicious opinions, they are ready to bear any torture, rather than hurt an ibis, a snake, a cat, a dog, or a crocodile: and should any one inadvertently have hurt any of these animals, he will submit to any punishment. I am speaking of men only. As to the beasts, do they not bear cold and hunger, running about in woods, and on mountains and deserts? will they not fight for their young ones till they are wounded? Are they afraid of any attacks or blows? I mention not what the ambitious will suffer for honour’s sake, or those who are desirous of praise on account of glory, or lovers to gratify their lust. Life is full of such instances.

Which I presume takes you back to needing to identify a list of core commonalities between you and the other prospective participants in a local society. unfortunately "we all just want to be happy" as a goal doesn't produce enough specificity when the meaning of "happy" and the path to get there have so many variations.

Is what you are talking about not basically a "Rotary" or "Lions" or "Kiwanis" or other "men's club?" And if so they have existing infrastructure that would help you get started?

Happy Birthday to AUtC! Learn more about AUtC and say happy birthday on AUtC's timeline: AUtC

Our Epicureanfriend Raphael Raul is an artist of very considerable talent, as we've seen from his art/graphic postings. In addition, some years ago he produced a "physics" oriented video with an original poem which he narrates in the video. It's well worthwhile watching. You can view and comment in the thread here:

Thread

Our Journey Through The Universe ... Our Journey From Atoms to Consciousness. / New Video And Artwork

The evolution of the universe and that of life on Earth has brought consciousness to fruition in all life forms, especially in us Humans, who think and reflect on our place in the universe. Thus, consciousness, I believe, is the fragrant flower of the evolution of the universe and of life on earth. In the illustration below, I have attempted to show how we, as humans, have evolved to an awareness of our atomic origins through the rigors of science.

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/6040/…

Raphael Raul

December 31, 2025 at 10:49 PM

Claire46 tells us:

This is to confirm my request for a new account.

Hello there, I have minimal background in studying formal philosophy or the Stoïcs, but I have recently listened to an Australian podcast where the guest (Brigid Delaney) discussed the positive impacts that following some of the tenets of stoïcism has had on her life.

I am also ready for new learning! I have an honours degree in Languages and Literature, and an Education post-grad degree, but my current role does not expand my way of thinking much, and I would like to challenge myself to think more rigorously, at least at times.

Thanks,
Claire46

Welcome claire46 !

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Happy Birthday to Julia! Learn more about Julia and say happy birthday on Julia's timeline: Julia

You haven't listed Lucretius so I presume you haven't read that either. A word of caution: it will transform your understanding of Epicurus to read into the details and begin to understand how Epicurus approaches key words very differently from the other Greeks. You'll especially want to think about what Epicurus means by "pleasure" and "virtue" and his attitude toward the "gods." If you've in fact read only those works that you have listed, you will run into a lot of questions along the way, so please let us know your thoughts and we'll be glad to discuss them as they arise to you.

Episode 314 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Cicero Challenges Epicurus: Can Pleasures Really Overcome Pains?"

A lot has been lost but the essentials are still there. When you get a chance tell us what you've read and that will help us make recommendations.

Welcome Hyankinthos --- What have you been reading so far?

Here's an example from this weeks' podcast text. In this section of Tusculan Disputations Cicero says, referring to Stoics and those of similar viewpoint who hold that the condition of the mind is all that is important: What may they not do, who allow nothing to be desirable, nothing to be looked on as good but what is honourable? Let, then, the Peripatetics and old Academics follow my example, and at length leave off muttering to themselves; and openly and with a clear voice let them be bold to say, that a happy life may not be inconsistent with the agonies of Phalaris's bull.

• Quote

  Nor did he take any trouble to provide himself with those remedies which might have enabled him to bear pain; such as firmness of mind, a shame of doing anything base, exercise, and the habit of patience, precepts of courage, and a manly hardiness: but he says that he supports himself on the single recollection of past pleasures, as if any one, when the weather was so hot as that he was scarcely able to bear it, should comfort himself by recollecting that he was once in my country Arpinum, where he was surrounded on every side by cooling streams: for I do not apprehend how past pleasures can allay present evils. But when he says that a wise man is always happy, who would have no right to say so if he were consistent with himself, what may they not do, who allow nothing to be desirable, nothing to be looked on as good but what is honourable? Let, then, the Peripatetics and old Academics follow my example, and at length leave off muttering to themselves; and openly and with a clear voice let them be bold to say, that a happy life may not be inconsistent with the agonies of Phalaris's bull.

The context here is that Cicero is irritated at Epicurus for saying that the wise man is happy even while under torture, because Cicero thinks that Epicureans care about nothing except the pleasures of smooth motion.

It's true that Epicurus doesn't care about anything that does not bring pleasure, but it's not true that Epicurus is happy even while under torture solely because he has the right "attitude" and has learned an intellectual lesson like A + B = C.

Epicurus is happy under extreme kidney disease because he actively focuses his attention on a set of pleasures that means more to him (his friends and his pleasure at the study of nature) and this gives him something real to say that he can withstand pain X because he has pleasure Y.

This is more than simply the intellectual knowledge that "when I die I cease to exist." There's nothing intrinsically pleasant about that knowledge at all. If you aren't now or haven't in the past pursued pleasures of mind and body that you do or have enjoy, you have nothing to set against pain.

I think that most people reading this here will agree with this viewpoint, but those who value the mind as divine - like Cicero is saying everyone should - disparage the active pleasures of the mind and body - because all they care about is "not being disturbed." And when you elevate "not being disturbed" to the goal of the philosophy then you've lost the entire thread of why "pleasure" is important.

The dead are "not disturbed" but that's not the point of life and it's a huge mistake to make it so, but that is implicit on those who can't articulate a good reason to stay alive, which is what Emily Austin is saying some of our most famous modern writers are doing in discussing Epicurus.

There is a section in this weeks text that might be of special interest to Don, since i recall him mentioning the issue several times.

In this section of Tusculan Disputations Cicero is sharply critical, but I find particularly interesting the "for I do not apprehend how past pleasures can allay present evils" as that is a direct challenge for us to explain the common reference in Epicurus to using the pleasures of the past to "offset" or "array against" current pains.

Quote

Nor did he take any trouble to provide himself with those remedies which might have enabled him to bear pain; such as firmness of mind, a shame of doing anything base, exercise, and the habit of patience, precepts of courage, and a manly hardiness: but he says that he supports himself on the single recollection of past pleasures, as if any one, when the weather was so hot as that he was scarcely able to bear it, should comfort himself by recollecting that he was once in my country Arpinum, where he was surrounded on every side by cooling streams: for I do not apprehend how past pleasures can allay present evils. But when he says that a wise man is always happy, who would have no right to say so if he were consistent with himself, what may they not do, who allow nothing to be desirable, nothing to be looked on as good but what is honourable? Let, then, the Peripatetics and old Academics follow my example, and at length leave off muttering to themselves; and openly and with a clear voice let them be bold to say, that a happy life may not be inconsistent with the agonies of Phalaris's bull.

Additional citation relevantto smoothness / smooth motion:

From Tusculan Disputations at Part 5 section XXVI

Quote

A. What, when in torments and on the rack?

M. Do you imagine I am speaking of him as laid on roses and violets? Is it allowable even for Epicurus (who only puts on the appearance of being a philosopher, and who himself assumed that name for himself,) to say, (though as matters stand, I commend him for his saying,) that a wise man might at all times cry out, though he be burned, tortured, cut to pieces, “How little I regard it!” Shall this be said by one who defines all evil as pain, and measures every good by pleasure; who could ridicule whatever we call either honourable or base, and could declare of us that we were employed about words, and uttering mere empty sounds; and that nothing is to be regarded by us, but as it is perceived to be smooth or rough by the body?

Hyakinthos tells us:

This is to confirm my request for a new account.

Hey! I'm actually fairly new to Epicureanism but have studied other
philosophy before, especially Taoism. In fact I actually found Epicureanism
through studying Yang Zhu (a Taoist contemporary to Epicurus) and while I
do love Taoism.
The ethics and logic of Epicurus really spoke to me. I've never understood
why so many religions and philosophies shun the idea of pleasant living in
favor of some abstract concept, such as relationship with God, or mystic
nirvana.
So far even in the 2 months I've been studying Epicurus, I've found his
doctrines to actually be helping me improve my life and my outlook on life,
which is more than any religion has ever done.
Anyways, I'm also a huge history and mythology nerd. That's about it.

Thanks so much for having me, I'm really excited to be here, and really
excited to learn more!

Welcome Hyakinthos

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!