Posts by Cassius

Also don't forget the inherent ridiculousness of trying to reason with someone who rejects evidence-based reasoning. They are speaking nonsense and once they start down that road Lucretius says the ultimate response is not to engage with them further:

Against him then I will refrain from joining issue, who plants himself with his head in the place of his feet.

In both the question of knowledge and of determinism you can point out to the other person that their position is self-contradictory, but ultimately in most cases they won't care about self-contradiction since they don't care about evidence.

I modified the title of the thread just slightly to make clear that there are two kinds of evidence that must be consided in evaluating when we can be dogmatic and reach a conclusion and when we cannot.

Direct evidence is direct observation. We determine honey is sweet and snow is white by direct observation through the senses.

Indirect evidence is also called circumstantial evidence. We conclude that atoms (indivisible particles) exist even though we cannot see or touch them directly because the things we do observe directly (the circumstances or indirect observation) are seen to operate consistently with atoms being the cause of the regularity of what we do see. We therefore know atoms exist only circumstantially, but we are nevertheless sure that they do exist. We do not "wait" for more information or hold open the possibility that "maybe rather than atoms there are supernatural forces we have not yet discovered" because to do so would be sheer speculation. The decision to reject sheer speculation is at the heart of what it means to be Epicurean.

You can easily be a Muslim, Christian, or Jew and understand that eating too much ice cream will bring pain that outweighs the immediate pleasure. You cannot easily be a Muslim, Christian, or Jew and reject "faith" - which is regularly understood to be belief without "evidence."

And as Joshua brought up in our recent conversation about reasoning in Lucretius, this issue is why it is important to be able to do more than give a blank stare when the Stoics or Thomas Aquinas or others start insisting that there is a supernatural realm based on "arguments from design" or "ontological arguments" that amount to assertions based purely on speculation or word games. It is essential to have a clear understanding of when it is proper to consider something as "conclusive" and when it is not.

It is sound to conclude that atoms exist. It is not sound to conclude that supernatural forces exist.

In the podcast we will eventually address this issue of "when is it appropriate to say that we know something" by covering Philodemus' "On Signs / On Methods of Inference." We've also already covered these issues in past discussions of Lucretius Book 4 as to the possibility of knowledge and in discussions of Principal Doctrines 23 and 24.

The Lucretius material is most focused starting around Book 4 line 462 -

Again, if any one thinks that nothing is known, he knows not whether that can be known either, since he admits that he knows nothing. Against him then I will refrain from joining issue, who plants himself with his head in the place of his feet. And yet were I to grant that he knows this too, yet I would ask this one question; since he has never before seen any truth in things, whence does he know what is knowing, and not knowing each in turn, what thing has begotten the concept of the true and the false, what thing has proved that the doubtful differs from the certain?

but for many lines before and after that the topic is the same -- we understand that illusions can occur but nevertheless we learn to use the senses properly and we still reach firm conclusions after we process multiple observations.

The words 'conclusive" and "conclusion" are key. Socrates alleged that he did not conclude anything except that he could not conclude anything. This conclusion is self-contradictory BS and Epicurus concludes firmly that it must be rejected. In doing so, Epicurus is illustrating that conclusions are possible even though we are not omniscient.

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I agree with Martin but would add as to this that we must be clear about what "conclusive" means:

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Quote from Martin

We should not wait until the evidence for this is conclusive because it will never be conclusive.

In the law we convict people and put them to death on a regular basis by holding to be conclusive the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt." And we do so even though we do not "see" them commit crimes directly. We accept that circumstantial evidence is amply sufficient to reach reasonable conclusions, just as we conclude that "atoms" (indivisible particles) exist without seeing or touching them directly.

It would not be reasonable or proper to require "omniscience" as some people seem to want to equate to "conclusive." "Conclusive" should be read to mean that we have sufficient evidence - clear direct and/or circumstantial evidence which is not contradicted by other clear direct or circumstantial evidence - to reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. Otherwise we create ambiguity and doubt where none should exist.

In those cases where the direct and circumstantial evidence is insufficient to support support a clear conclusion, we "wait." In cases where clear evidence supports multiple possibilities, we do not arbitrarily choose among them but hold them all to be possible.

But we never 'wait" on the grounds that we are not omniscient or based purely on speculation that "anything is possible" or "some other undiscovered evidence *may* exist." We wait only when we have clear reason to do so, and pure speculation or insistence on "omniscience" is not a clear reason to suspend judgment.

In this episode we spend most of our time describing the three divisions of philosophy and the three divisions of "good" that were the dominant ways of looking at these topics prior to Epicurus. Next week we will take this analysis much further and emphasize more of the differences in Epicurus' approach.

Episode 323 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "The Pre-Epicurean View: Three Divisions of Philosophy And Three Divisions of Goods"

Of course even more on point as to the disaster of not trusting the senses is Lucretius 4-500

4-500

And if reason is unable to unravel the cause, why those things which close at hand were square, are seen round from a distance, still it is better through lack of reasoning to be at fault in accounting for the causes of either shape, rather than to let things clear seen slip abroad from your grasp, and to assail the grounds of belief, and to pluck up the whole foundations on which life and existence rest. For not only would all reasoning fall away; life itself too would collapse straightway, unless you choose to trust the senses, and avoid headlong spots and all other things of this kind which must be shunned, and to make for what is opposite to these. Know, then, that all this is but an empty store of words, which has been drawn up and arrayed against the senses.

** I'm thinking of this being the analogy (admittedly not right on point but good for pointing out how abandoning the study of nature / confidence in the senses will open the door for a flood of other problems:

For on whatever side you maintain that the bodies fail first, this side will be the gate of death for things, by this path will all the throng of matter cast itself abroad.

1-1083

Moreover, since they do not pretend that all bodies press towards the centre, but only those of earth and liquid, the moisture of the sea and mighty waters from the mountains, and those things which are, as it were, enclosed in an earthy frame; but on the other hand, they teach that the thin breezes of air and hot fires at the same time are carried away from the centre, and that for this cause all the sky around is twinkling with stars, and the flame of the sun is fed through the blue tracts of heaven, because all the heat fleeing from the centre gathers itself together there; nor again can the topmost branches grow leafy upon trees, unless from the earth little by little each has food [supplied by nature, their thoughts are not at harmony with themselves. There must then be an infinite store of matter], lest after the winged way of flames the walls of the world suddenly fly apart, dissolved through the great void, and lest all else follow them in like manner, or the thundering quarters of the sky fall down from above, and the earth in hot haste withdraw itself from beneath our feet, and amid all the mingled ruin of things on earth and of the sky, whereby the frames of bodies are loosed, it pass away through the deep void, so that in an instant of time not a wrack be left behind, except emptied space and unseen first-beginnings. For on whatever side you maintain that the bodies fail first, this side will be the gate of death for things, by this path will all the throng of matter cast itself abroad.

Quote from Patrikios

Since Epicurus saw himself as a healer, the Socratic/Platonic turning away from a deeper understanding of nature’s healing processes, would have horrified Epicurus.

I agree and I think "horrified" is in the vicinity of the right emotion. I don't think they considered this to be a mild disagreement to politely gloss over. It goes to the heart of everything, and in analogy to the way Lucretius describes theories that contradict the Epicurean view of the universe,** Socrates' approach opens the way to massive destruction and the Epicureans would have realized that.

**I'll have to look up that reference - can't remember it at the moment but it's something about positing the existence of something besides atom and void.

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Cornelius - I presume you are aware of this statement by Torquatus in Cicero's "On Ends" to the effect that it is disgraceful not to have learned theses things as boys (children), but just in case you are not:

Quote from Cicero's On Ends Book One - Torquatus (Rackham)

[72] You are pleased to think him uneducated. The reason is that he refused to consider any education worth the name that did not help to school us in happiness. Was he to spend his time, as you encourage Triarius and me to do, in perusing poets, who give us nothing solid and useful, but merely childish amusement? Was he to occupy himself like Plato with music and geometry, arithmetic and astronomy, which starting from false premises cannot be true, and which moreover if they were true would contribute nothing to make our lives pleasanter and therefore better? Was he, I say, to study arts like these, and neglect the master art, so difficult and correspondingly so fruitful, the art of living?

No! Epicurus was not uneducated: the real philistines are those who ask us to go on studying till old age the subjects that we ought to be ashamed not to have learnt in boyhood.

Additional note to all:

I have moved the "Childhood Education and Parenting" subforum out of the "Ethics" section to the "Resources Activism and Engagement" section. Childhood Education and Parenting includes much more than just ethics, so it needs to be included as one of our primary "activism and engagement" topics.

Cornelius we currently have the following sub-forum on Childhood Education. There's not much there yet, but I'd love to see more. Please consider writing about your interests in this area:

Childhood Education and Parenting

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an Italian student at the University of Rome in Primary Education (essentially, I'm studying to become an elementary and preschool teacher).

I am particularly glad to see this and hope you will at length contribute your thoughts on childhood education on Epicurean ideas.

The only comment I would add at this point is that this should include not only ethics but also canonics and physics, as those are the necessary foundations of the ethics.

I hope you'll expand your ideas in this area in future threads.

Welcome Cornelius!

Given your explanation of your user name and the questions that might be raised about the "prostitute" aspect I do think it would be best for you to shorten your user name in some way {perhaps CorneliusP but your choice...). Into the future most user who see "Peripateticus" will presume it is a nod to Aristotle and wonder how that fits into the forum purpose. Given your reasoning for the original choice this would appear to be a situation where the benefit of the inside joke is outweighed by the questions it willraise in the minds of others in the future.

Your enthusiasm is certainly welcome here, and your being Italian will no doubt be an asset. I look forward to hearing more from you as time goes by, and if you have any issues using the forum let us know.

Welcome Cornelius, who has sent me the following information about himself. He sounds fascinating and familiar with the forum rules, so for the time being we'll consider his name to indicate that he likes to exercise his legs, rather than as a statement of dedication to Aristotle!

Cornelius tells me:

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Hi, I'm Francesco, an Italian student at the University of Rome in Primary Education (essentially, I'm studying to become an elementary and preschool teacher). Having attended liceo classico (a high school in Italy that requires rigorous study of Greek and Latin language and texts), since my sophomore year (around age 16) I've been extremely fascinated by Epicurus's thought and how it was later reworked in a profoundly artistic way by Lucretius. I distinctly remember how my first reading of the Epistle to Menoeceus genuinely brought me to tears at the end, with Epicurus's final exhortation urging his friend, "Take and practice these teachings, and you will be a god among mortals, for to this is comparable the joy of one who enjoys immortal goods."

I've had a difficult life, especially since early adolescence, and Epicurus, somewhat similarly to Lucretius's description, has always been a beacon of light in my life (along with several other thinkers, but Epicurus was certainly the first to strike me in this way). I still find the idea behind Tetrapharmakon, the detachment from harmful, "artificial," and purely "comfortable" goods and pleasures that only generate a profound dose of pain in man (and society as a whole), to be avant-garde. I find the Samian master's exhortation to pursue a simple life of simple pleasures, as well as his definition of pain and pleasure, enlightening, however simple it may seem to the contemporary eye. Even today, in moments of suffering or difficult decisions, I find myself repeating what has become a mantra for me: "Not all pleasures should be pursued because they can lead to greater pain, just as not all pains should be avoided because they can yield unforgettable pleasures." I believe there are no thinkers like Epicurus who have shaped my way of looking at the world, ethics, and personal care, except Jean Jacques Rousseau (whom I won't discuss, however, because I've clearly read the forum rules: I don't intend to express contemporary political opinions, nor "ontological" or "ideal" human life-state opinions); it's no coincidence that the (brilliant) starting idea of Epicurean philosophy was to care for a people like the Greeks, who had lost their identity as "free citizens of the polis" and become vassals and subjects of the Macedonian kingdom.

I believe his was the first explicit form of dissemination of applied philosophical thought, applied not so much as a search for truth but as a form of large-scale therapy open to anyone, for living a healthier life, physically, mentally, and even "spiritually" (by which I mean the balance that develops between the individual and the surrounding world once Epicurus' teachings have been properly assimilated, and to which I do not attach a religious value). I was immediately struck by the name of the forum, given the importance Epicurus placed on the concept of friendship, and I thought I could finally find a space where, even if only passively, I could meet like-minded people and perhaps find insights on how best to apply Epicurus' thought to everyday life.

Unfortunately, although I am surrounded by friends who are classicists like me, they are all mostly Stoic in their thinking, so, although there are points of connection between the two lines of thought, the conversation very often reaches an impasse. I apologize for the rather long introduction, even though a short one was requested, but I got carried away by what Horace would call "lactea ubertas," and I hope you'll forgive me for that.

Welcome Cornelius Peripateticus !

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not sure whether this link is included in previous posts, but I see that the Athenians have a youtube page where various presentations can be accessed directly:

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Welcome to Episode 323 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
   
This week we start are continuing our series reviewing Cicero's "Academic Questions" from an Epicurean perspective. We are focusing first on what is referred to as Book One, which provides an overview of the issues that split Plato's Academy and gives us an overview of the philosophical issues being dealt with at the time of Epicurus. This week will will continue in Section 5

Our text will come from
Cicero - Academic Questions - Yonge We'll likely stick with Yonge primarily, but we'll also refer to the Rackam translation here:

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  Cicero On Nature Of Gods Academica Loeb Rackham : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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I entreat you however, said Atticus, I entreat you to go on, Varro. For I am greatly attached to my own countrymen and to their works; and those subjects delight me beyond measure when they are treated in Latin, and in such a manner as you treat them. And what, said I, do you think that I must feel, who have already engaged to display philosophy to our nation? Let us then, said he, continue the subject, since it is agreeable to you.

A threefold system of philosophising, then, was already received from Plato. One, on the subject of life and morals. A second, on nature and abstruse matters. The third, on discussion, and on what is true or false; what is right or wrong in a discourse; what is consistent or inconsistent in forming a decision.

And that first division of the subject, that namely of living well, they sought in nature herself, and said that it was necessary to obey her; and that that chief good to which everything was referred was not to be sought in anything whatever except in nature. And they laid it down that the crowning point of all desirable things, and the chief good, was to have received from nature everything which is requisite for the mind, or the body, or for life. But of the goods of the body, they placed some in the whole, and others in the parts. Health, strength, and beauty in the whole. In the parts, soundness of the senses, and a certain excellence of the individual parts. As in the feet, swiftness; in the hands, strength; in the voice, clearness; in the tongue, a distinct articulation of words. The excellences of the mind they considered those which were suitable to the comprehension of virtue by the disposition. And those they divided under the separate heads of nature and morals. Quickness in learning and memory they attributed to nature; each of which was described as a property of the mind and genius. Under the head of “morals” they classed our studies, and, I may say, our habits, which they formed, partly by a continuity of practice, partly by reason. And in these two things was contained philosophy itself, in which that which is begun and not brought to its completion, is called a sort of advance towards virtue; but that which is brought to completion is virtue, being a sort of perfection of nature and of all things which they place in the mind; the one most excellent thing. These things then are qualities of the mind.

The third division was that of life. And they said that those things which had influence in facilitating the practice of virtue were connected with this division. For virtue is discerned in some good qualities of the mind and body, which are added not so much to nature as to a happy life. They thought that a man was as it were a certain part of the state, and of the whole human race, and that he was connected with other men by a sort of human society. And this is the way in which they deal with the chief and natural good. But they think that everything else is connected with it, either in the way of increasing or of maintaining it; as riches, power, glory, and influence. And thus a threefold division of goods is inferred by them.