Posts by Cassius

I should have added that early in my study I printed out some pictures, worked on some 3d busts, etc. I never graduated to ring or pendants but those are good too, ieth the basic idea that its a good think to have occasional reminders in your surroundings that the philosophy is more than just an idea but that real people - lots of them - engaged in it too in the past, and you can be a part of that self-chosen group no matter how distant. I like thinking that I am part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

I don't think of myself as having particular structure, but in my case I am pretty much constantly working with this website and reading and studying the texts and thinking of new ways to present it and talking to people about it. I suspect that the normal days of Lucretius or Diogenes of Oinoanda or Philodemus would have been pretty similar. The word "ritual" evokes a lot of both positive and negative connotations given the way we think of rituals working in the standard supernatural religions, and I tend to avoid those personally.

The most on-point advise that I recall is:

VS41. We must laugh and philosophize at the same time, and do our household duties, and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy.

To me, this kind of approach means that everything you do is folded into the master plan of living happily according to Epicurus' worldview, but on the other hand almost nothing you do is hard-wired to a particular absolute "ritual," because that's not the way life is - you're always adjusting to circumstances to produce the best result. You're either living by Epicurean ideas consciously and intentionally moment by moment, or during those deviations you're not really living by Epicurean ideas at all, no matter what "ritual" you might be engaged in.

Quote from Julia

You see: Even if SoE reject whatever we suggest, that's still dialogue and they might have a counter proposal. Other than "this feels like a waste of time" (which is fine to feel that way) I don't see what we have to lose

While I would be shocked if there were wide consensus among existing Epicurean aficianoados, I still think the exercise is very useful. I almost see it as a "Rorschach test" of what individuals see as the most important aspects of Epicurean philosophy. It's amazing how people look differently even at the general subject of talking about how symbolism should work. Should the symbol be related to something that is "unique" about Epicurus, or is it ok for it to be about something that he's often associated with (atomism) but not at all as the trailblazer (that would have to go to Democritus or one of the eariler atomists.)

So I have no real hope of any consensus arising in the near future, but at the same time I think the exercise is great food for thought for everyone.

Quote from Julia

I'm willing to try – it's not like we need to invest our life savings or anything – and just see where we end up

As Don would say BY ZEUS that's the kind of attitude we need here on lots of things!

Episode 281 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. Today we begin Part Two of Cicero's Tusculan Disputations with an episode entitled: "Is Pain The Greatest Evil - Or An Evil At All?"

Julia have you seen Bryan's more recent work in making rings/jewelry? Bryan I know we have seen some of that in the Zoom meetings but maybe you could point us to a current location?

Quote from Don

3. If a human wanted to use that AI-generated image as a prompt to create a line drawing, I would find that preferable.

That's the part I didn't understand - got it!

Yes these considerations reflect some of our recent discussions.

It is desirable to:

1 - Discourage AI artwork here.

2 - Promote Epicurean Philosophy.,

If the use of AI legitimately in any respect serves goal 2 better than any alternative that is currently available to us, then I would put priority 2 first. Of course that's not generally going to be the case. In this case, the artwork is genuinely useful, I think, plus is it indicative of what others are seeing as to AI as to Epicurus. That in itself is a huge topic that I do not think we can ignore, just as we can't ignore wikipedia.

But of course, having noted all the above, that artwork will never be adopted here as a symbol associated with Epicureanfriends. A profile of some type might at some point be something good to use, but it won't be that one.

I realize that this might prompt renewal of that discussion and if so I'll move that part to the AI discussion thread if needed.

Quote from Don

I despise AI for artwork on a number of levels... But that's not bad. I'd certainly prefer someone using that as a prompt and not using that.

Perhaps a typo there Don ? Not sure what you mean....

@Steve - As far as I am concerned that is one of the best line drawings I have seen Steve. Can you get it to reprint with the word "Epicurus" under it - which might make it more usable in more situations? I know in my experience it's not easy to get an AI to redraw from an original.

Quote from Rolf

Related question: How does a modern-day Epicurean reconcile a) the predominant theory that the universe has a beginning with b) the Epicurean idea that the universe has no beginning and end?

Speaking for myself only, i consider this to be the intersection of philosophy vs "science," the latter word of which i find to be a word that is very ambiguous, easy to employ for political purposes, and thrown around far too loosely even by people who don't think they have an agenda. Some of that is discussed here.

It doesn't bother me that the "predominant" theory is that the universe had a beginning because I take the position that these proponents are not addressing the question of "what caused or what was prior to that beginning." Unless they are willing to go on record that "what was before the beginning was god" - which is really what they are implying - then they are just kicking the ball down the road and adding nothing to the conversation. The question is not "how many times has our section of the universe knowable to us expanded and contracted. The question is "what put the whole thing in motion in the first place" and that is best answered by something to the effect that in all human experience nothing has ever been observed to come from nothing, and as a matter of principle I'm not going to entertain speculation without evidence.

As Eikadistes said, much of the apparent turmoil comes from people taking the "observable universe" and not limiting their conclusions to "the observable." Yes, the "observable" universe may be expanding and contracting, but that does not mean that what is beyond the observable is expanding and contracting in the same direction. Epicurus is talking about "the all" when he says that the all is eternal and infinite, not any particular part of it.

I was raised at a time when "universe" was meant to refer to "the all." I realize that people today talk about multiverses and the like, but that just kicks the ball down the road again. I see no need to depart from traditional usage -- universe means "all that exists" and I see no persuasive evidence that indicates that Epicurus was wrong that "the all that exists" has existed for ever, and will exist forever, and that it has no limit in terms of space or time.

You'll find rhat in Epicurus' own time he and others (Lucian for example) were engaged in battles with the "scientists of their day" who were using mathematics and geometry to speculate that the stars were gods, and reach conclusions that contradict basic Epicurean physics as to the natural basis of the universe. There are always going to be such conflicts, just as there are now, and the way to deal with them is through understanding Epicurean canonics as standards of proof for what is and is not real, and how you deal with theories based on limited information which would appear to contradict fundamental conclusions that are based on repeatable observation and have proven their usefulness over the ages. One such observation is "nothing comes from nothing" and until an instance of that can be established to occur then nothing that contradicts that premise should be entertained to even be possible.

That list of connections is interesting in itself.

Of these, how many are distinctly Epicurean?

I'm asking in general now, what widely-known positions of Epicurus are distinctly Epicurean?

1. The Swerve (anyone disagree?)

2. ?

3. ?

In looking to turn that post in a more optimistic direction I would first start by focusing on the "ambiguity" part, because I think that could be stated better. I don't admit that Epicurus is ambiguous about the things listed in the post about the nature of the universe. Epicurus very precisely says that there are no supernatural gods and there's no existence after death, no eternal ideal forms, etc.

While we do have lists here and I think it is important to see how they are derived, I very much agree that it is not a good idea to focus on things like "THE four cures" to imply strict formulas which we today package as headliners but which are not well founded in the literature in that kind of way. There are all sorts of combinations that apply in different contexts.

I would say that even if a person were only to embrace the "no supernatural gods", "no life after death," "no eternal forms/essences," "not virtue but pleasure," and "ground reasoning in the senses (and maybe one or two more I am forgetting) then even a simple set of views like that would be ample to serve as a unifying perspective for considering oneself an Epicurean fellow-traveler. Even this list could be shortened - you have to start somewhere.

At least from my own perspective, having friends with those general viewpoints would be more than sufficient reward for the effort we put into studying Epicurus.

As to the bracelets and symbolism I see that as useful but differing widely by context.

Early in our discussion of the text in this episode, Cicero brings up the very interesting case of Hieronymous the Rhodian. Cicero overall seems to live Hieronymous more than Epicurus, because Hieronymous holds "absence of pain" to be the chief good, and not "pleasure" as does Epicurus.

The example of how dramatically differently Hieronymous and Epicurus viewed "absence of pain" and "pleasure," and how Cicero recognized that they were viewed differently in ancient philosophy - is in my view one of the most compelling pieces of evidence that we today need to be very careful not to assume that we know what "absence of pain" meant to Epicurus. Hieronymous clearly understood "absence of pain" to be something different than pleasure, and in fact Hieronymous denounced pleasure. Epicurus takes the opposite approach, praising pleasure, and considering pleasure, not "absence of pain" as the correct term for the goal of life.

Past discussion of this is here:

Thread

Are You Epicurean Or Hieronymian?

According to Doctrine 3, Epicurus held that the limit of quantity of pleasure is the absence of pain. This is a function of the truism / premise that there are only two feelings - pleasure and pain - which means that in quantity, the measurement that describes the "absence" of the one is the same measurement as the "presence" of the other. But this observation is limited to quantity - it has nothing to do with the quality or the detail of the type of pleasure (or pain) that is being…

Cassius

October 1, 2019 at 2:08 PM

We'll take up this question (what does "evil" really mean to Epicurus and to us?) near the beginning of the next episode, so any comments or suggestions will be appreciated.

Great looking site, Eikadistes!

I adjusted the title of the podcast to better address what we're about to cover. There are lots of implications in considering pain to be "the greatest evil" or even "an evil at all." In this first episode we don't dive headlong into what "evil" is supposed to be, mainly because I was absent and a slow-witted impersonator did not realize that we ought to start quickly with that question. However we'll come back to that in future episodes, and we'll want to consider how Epicurus is using the term "evil" in statements such as:

PD10. If the things that produce the pleasures of profligates could dispel the fears of the mind about the phenomena of the sky, and death, and its pains, and also teach the limits of desires (and of pains), we should never have cause to blame them: for they would be filling themselves full, with pleasures from every source, and never have pain of body or mind, which is the evil of life.

PD28. The same knowledge that makes one confident that nothing dreadful is eternal or long-lasting also recognizes, in the face of these limited evils, the security afforded by friendship.

PD34. Injustice is not an evil in itself, but only in consequence of the fear which attaches to the apprehension of being unable to escape those appointed to punish such actions.

Menoeceus:

[124] For the statements of the many about the gods are not conceptions derived from sensation, but false suppositions, according to which the greatest misfortunes befall the wicked and the greatest blessings (the good) by the gift of the gods. For men being accustomed always to their own virtues welcome those like themselves, but regard all that is not of their nature as alien. Become accustomed to the belief that death is nothing to us. For all good and evil consists in sensation, but death is deprivation of sensation.

But the many at one moment shun death as the greatest of evils, at another (yearn for it) as a respite from the (evils) in life. (But the wise man neither seeks to escape life) nor fears the cessation of life, for neither does life offend him nor does the absence of life seem to be any evil. And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant.

[129] Every pleasure then because of its natural kinship to us is good, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen: even as every pain also is an evil, yet not all are always of a nature to be avoided.

[130] Yet by a scale of comparison and by the consideration of advantages and disadvantages we must form our judgment on all these matters. For the good on certain occasions we treat as bad, and conversely the bad as good. - (Can we presume here "bad" = "evil" ?)

[134] For, indeed, it were better to follow the myths about the gods than to become a slave to the destiny of the natural philosophers: for the former suggests a hope of placating the gods by worship, whereas the latter involves a necessity which knows no placation. As to chance, he does not regard it as a god as most men do (for in a god’s acts there is no disorder), nor as an uncertain cause (of all things) for he does not believe that good and evil are given by chance to man for the framing of a blessed life, but that opportunities for great good and great evil are afforded by it.

Quote from Don

Although, the more Epicureans; the more likelihood of schisms and denominations. Three vs four legs is just the tip of the iceberg.

Very possibly true, but there is also "strength in numbers"

And I doubt any of us here already have to worry too much. Most of us are probably natural born contrarians anyway so we'll always find reasons for schism no matter how few or many of us there are

I liked the last post, and I think the final sentence is correct as of the moment - that's what we're doing at this forum.

Quote from Don

The most we can do is try to get a deeper understanding of the philosophy out there and encourage sincere students of Epicurus.

But I would hope and expect that to change in the future. All roads point back to Epicurus as the best of the ancient philosophers, and it is only natural and identified by Epicurus that living our happiest lives requires us to find and live among friends of Epicurean outlook.

I would expect as people get more motivated to take action in various ways of life, more people will see that emulating the formation of multiple centers of Epicurean cooperation will happen too. So I write just to emphasize that the "all we can" is limited to "under the present state of affairs," and that "present state of affairs" will almost certainly change. And hopefully multiple people reading these discussions will help change that!

1 - It's good to hear from Onenski!

2 - I agree with most everything Don and Onenski have written.

3 - I want to emphasize the underlined part of the wikipedia entry:

Quote

No true Scotsman or appeal to purity is an informal fallacy in which one modifies a prior claim in response to a counterexample by asserting the counterexample is excluded by definition. Rather than admitting error or providing evidence to disprove the counterexample, the original claim is changed by using a non-substantive modifier such as "true", "pure", "genuine", "authentic", "real", or other similar terms.

As I see it, it's important to see that the "no true Scotsman fallacy" does not mean that the thrust of the position being taken is not statistically true. All this "fallacy" is saying is that if you want to be precise about your assertion, you should explain and be prepared to prove - more than just asserting it to be true - why the counterexample being thrown in your face is an exception to the generalization.

Just because your uncle Angus puts sugar on his porridge does not prove that as a cultural generalization, 99% of Scotsmen do not put sugar on their porridge. The only thing that the "fallacy" says is that if someone can point to an exception, then the "rule" is not true 100% of the time, and so if one wants to be precisely accurate, what needs to say is "the great majority of Scotsmen do not put sugar on their porridge."

BOTH can be true at the same time: (1) your uncle DOES put sugar on his porridge, and (2) 99% of Scotsmen do not. There is no conflict between those two positions, but to say "No true Scotsman" or "No Scotsman" puts sugar on his porridge is overbroad.

Some cases call for precision more than do others, and asserting the Scotsman fallacy can sometimes be ridiculous itself when everyone knows that the person is stating a generalization rather than really meaning that there are no exceptions. However it's always good to be precise when issues are complex, such as when Onenski wrote:

Quote from Onenski

It’s possible that Epicurus also thought that we all act in pursuit of pleasure (i.e., hedonistically), and if we acknowledged this, we’d avoid many mistakes and sufferings by directly seeking what brings us the most long-term pleasure.

I commonly say that myself, and I think it's sometimes or even often true. But I think it's important to remember that in the letter to Menoeceus Epicurus said specifically that time is not only or overriding factor, thus "long-term" is not quite right. It's "the greatest pleasure" which might or might not necessarily be the "long-term" choice.

[126] ... And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant.

So precision is generally a good idea. No true Epicurean would want to be less than clear!