Posts by Cassius

Welcome ceiltechbladhm

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

I very much agree Patrikios, just like people differ in their sense of taste or smell or what they find pleasurable. A test of "truth" cannot and I would say therefore does not mean a test of "absolute" or "true for everyone" truth. Some truths are more widely applicable than others but given the nature of the universe all truths are contextual. Absolute Platonic idealist truth does not exist and it is a false standard to act as if it does.

I would also say this relates to not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Welcome back Root/Adrastus! Yes we definitely are still having zoom meetings, and good to hear you are working on your own writing. I encourage everyone here to do that as the best way to learn something yourself is to work on explaining it to other people. Good to have you back.

I suspect that either Joshua or Eikadistes or both have included notable / infamous dates in the suppression of "paganism," closing of the schools, destruction of the temples, etc.

I would like to see us have a timetable of those major events so we could begin to form a mental outline about the most significant of them. Maybe one of them already knows of such a listing / timeline.

I recall when I read some of these chapters many years ago, and listened to them on the Audible.com version, that Gibbon can be very sarcastic/ironic. It will therefore pay for readers to keep that in mind and not accept everything he says on face value, especially if English is not your first language. Some of that irony is probably easier to detect in the Audible version.

For example, in the outline above there is a reference to "the moral purity and discipline of Christian communities." I gathered in reading some of those references that it was very debatable whether he was serious or sarcastic about that.

Edward Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire is a monumental work, and his discussion of Christianity's role in the fall of the Roman Empire is notable and controversial. Gibbon's analysis, particularly in Chapters 15 and 16 (end of Volume 1 and beginning of Volume 2), is most often cited for attributing a significant role to Christianity in the decline of the Roman Empire. Below is a breakdown of the relevant sections:

Key Chapters

1. Chapter 15: The Progress of the Christian Religion, and the Sentiments, Manners, Numbers, and Condition of the Primitive Christians
   • In this chapter, Gibbon examines the rise and spread of Christianity within the Roman Empire. He discusses the zeal, organization, and growth of early Christian communities, suggesting that their spread contributed to a shift in societal values.
   • Gibbon argues that Christianity's emphasis on spiritual concerns, pacifism, and otherworldly focus undermined the martial spirit and civic virtues that had sustained Roman strength. He also highlights the intolerance of Christians toward pagan practices, which disrupted the religious pluralism of the empire.
   • Key Point: Gibbon suggests that Christianity's rise weakened traditional Roman institutions by diverting loyalty from the state to the Church.
   • In Chapter 15, Gibbon lists five causes for the rapid spread of Christianity:
     • The inflexible zeal of Christians.
     • The doctrine of a future life, which appealed to the masses.
     • Alleged miracles that bolstered Christian credibility.
     • The moral purity and discipline of Christian communities.
     • The organized ecclesiastical structure of the Church. These factors, while explaining Christianity's success, are framed as diverting the empire's focus from secular to religious priorities.
2. Chapter 16: The Conduct of the Roman Government Towards the Christians, from the Reign of Nero to that of Constantine
   • This chapter focuses on the persecution of Christians and their eventual triumph under Constantine. Gibbon explores how Christianity's growth, despite persecution, led to its institutionalization as the state religion.
   • He argues that the adoption of Christianity by the Roman state under Constantine and later emperors shifted resources and attention to religious disputes, weakening the empire's ability to address external threats and internal instability.
   • Gibbon also critiques the dogmatic disputes within Christianity, suggesting that theological conflicts (e.g., Arianism vs. orthodoxy) consumed energy that could have been directed toward governance or defense.

Other Relevant Sections

• Chapter 20 (on Constantine's conversion) and parts of Volume 2 touch on the consequences of Christianity becoming the state religion, including the redirection of imperial resources to church-building and religious councils.
• Gibbon's discussion in later chapters, such as those covering the reigns of Theodosius (e.g., Chapter 27), further elaborates on how the establishment of Christianity as the sole religion suppressed pagan traditions and contributed to cultural and political shifts.

Why These Chapters Are Famous

• Chapters 15 and 16 are particularly famous because they were highly controversial when published (1776–1788). Gibbon's Enlightenment-era skepticism and critical tone toward Christianity provoked strong reactions from religious readers, who saw his work as an attack on the faith.
• His arguments in these chapters are often cited in debates about the role of religion in societal decline, making them some of the most discussed and critiqued sections of the work.

History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire — Volume 1

www.gutenberg.org

I don't have access to any English version on this, but if the wikipedia article is correct this work deserves a thread of its own:

Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums - Wikipedia

Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums (In English Criminal History of Christianity) is the main work of the author and church critic Karlheinz Deschner. It describes the misconduct attributed to various Christian churches, denominations, sects, and leagues, as well as its representatives and Christian sovereigns during Christian history. The work covers the entire history of Christianity from its biblical beginnings until the present. It was published in ten volumes beginning in 1986, with the final volume appearing in March 2013.^[1]

This is a subject I don't know much about and think it would help us to discuss more. I therefore want to dramatically expand this discussion. We'll set up a separate forum for History and have a section for the conflict between monotheism and Epicurean and other non-monotheistic cultures. I'll change the title of this thread to make it more descriptive, and we can add other threads for other similar works.

When we set up the Forum section, we'll set up threads (or subforums) for at least the following works:

1. The Rise and Fall of Alexandria, by Justin Pollard and Howard Reid

   There are a few chapters in this book that deal with the rise of Christianity, the murder of Hypatia, and the destruction of the Serapeum. The decline of Alexandria was also captured by the mournful verses of the pagan poet Palladus: "Is it not true that we are dead, and living only in appearance, we Hellenes, fallen on disaster, likening life to a dream, for while we remain alive our way of life is dead and gone."

2. Gibbon's Decline and Fall (Sections on the rise of Christianity and its contribution to the fall of Rome)

3. Historia Ecclesiastica, by Socrates Scholasticus

   A history of the church written by a Christian living in the 5th century

4. Criminal History of Christianity - (German work by Karlheinz Deschner (1986-2013))

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriminalg…es_Christentums

If anyone is aware of similar books/works that should be included, please post.

Welcome Adrastus

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

My first comment would be that this synthesis is a complete adoption of the Diogenes Laertius position, which does not reflect the implications of what Cicero/Velleius says about it as being innate. It is difficult or impossible to reconcile it with what Epicurus says about prolepsis of the gods - Do we have a preconception of gods because each individual personally sees gods so many times?

My statement there doesn't mean that I have concluded that it is entirely wrong, just incomplete, especially if you take a very superficial reading of "Epicurus was an empiricist, meaning that he believed that all knowledge ultimately derives from the senses." At the very least, does instinctive behavior ultimately derive from the senses? I would say no to that and I think Epicurus would too, for which I would cite Lucretius' reference to the natures of various types of animals.

Quote

* **Meaning:** Prolepsis translates to "preconception," "anticipation," or "pre-notion." It refers to a basic, general concept or idea that has been formed in our minds through repeated sensory experiences.

* **Formation through Experience:** Epicurus was an empiricist, meaning he believed that all knowledge ultimately derives from the senses. Prolepseis are formed when repeated sensory inputs of a certain kind leave a lasting impression or "trace" in the mind. For example, by repeatedly encountering dogs, we form a prolepsis of "dog" – a general idea of what a dog is.

Welcome Ulfilas and thank you for responding to this Welcome thread!

Rolf to drop back to Don's comment in post 28 and his earlier comment about pleasures that you "get out of the way from," I've thought of another example of a type of pleasure that I think is applicable:

In addition to Epicurus saying that he found his own peace chiefly in the study of nature, which I would say clearly includes the philosophical debates about nature which we are discussing, there is another very good example in the opening of Book 2 of Lucretius:

Quote from Munro Version

2-01

It is sweet, when on the great sea the winds trouble its waters, to behold from land another’s deep distress; not that it is a pleasure and delight that any should be afflicted, but because it is sweet to see from what evils you are yourself exempt. It is sweet also to look upon the mighty struggles of war arrayed along the plains without sharing yourself in the danger. But nothing is more welcome than to hold the lofty and serene positions well fortified by the learning of the wise, from which you may look down upon others and see them wandering all abroad and going astray in their search for the path of life, see the contest among them of intellect, the rivalry of birth, the striving night and day with surpassing effort to struggle up to the summit of power and be masters of the world.

O wretched are the thoughts of men! How blind their souls! In what dark roads they grope their way, in what distress is this life spent, short as it is! Don't you see Nature requires no more than the body free from pain, that she may enjoy the mind easy and cheerful, removed from care and fear?

I would equate understanding the implication and the solution to radical skepticism in general, of which the Meno Paradox is part, to a good example of a part of what Lucretius is referring to as causing the wandering and going astray in the path of life. I say this from the point of view that you can't be confident that Nature does in fact no more than pleasure over pain, and you can't be removed from care and fear, if you don't think it is possible to be confident that these things are true, and that supernatural control and eternal punishment are false.

Now again - not everyone is bothered by the claims of philosophical skepticism or sees the immediate relevance to them. If they are not so bothered, then more power to them, but we likely would not have Epicurean philosophy to talk about in the first place if Epicurus and Metrodorus and Hermarchus and Lucretius and Diogenes of Oinoanda and Philodemus had not been bothered by them.

Quote from Martin

Therefore, it might be wrong to call instincts or reflexes prolepses.

I would emphasize the "might" there, as there may be a relationship of some kind (at the very least, both seem to be related to something that is present at birth, prior to all experience through ears and eyes and the rest). However what I think would definitely be wrong would be to "equate" the two, because they pretty clearly are not exactly the same in all respects and functions.

Welcome Ulfilas

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Welcome Ulfilas - I will set up your welcome thread now.

Also, what aspect of the Sisson translation makes it your favorite?

Thread

Welcome Ulfilas!

Welcome Ulfilas

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the…

Cassius

June 27, 2025 at 5:42 AM

Quote from Don

That said, with due respect to Cassius and others bringing in Meno and the theory of knowledge, I **personally** see prolepsis, ancient concepts of memory formation, the workings of the psykhē (mind/soul), to be of tangential importance to applying Epicurus' philosophy in the modern world to my way of living. I find the investigations that the ancients dealt in and how they arrived at their findings of fascinating intellectual curiosity. But eidola do not grind grooves into my psykhē to make subsequent similar eidola easier to intercept. Brains don't work that way.

Yes Rolf, it's important to realize that not everyone here has the same focus and goals. Some of us are more interested in our own personal lives, and some of us are more interested in reconstructing the system for for longer-term societal applications. These goals can be complementary and there is no reason for them to be in conflict, but you don't want to let yourself get whipsawed between the two perspectives.

To date we have had a small enough group that most everyone who has posted regularly has participated in most every conversation. But it's not necessary for those who aren't worried about competition between the schools to worry about the competitive angles, nor do the "evangelicals" need to look down on the "therapists." Each person can decide for themselves which aspects they are interested in and pursue those. If you are anyone reading this doesn't feel that prolepsis is something that interests you, there's no need to force yourself down a path that doesn't seem to be leading anywhere to that person. On the other hand canonics is an example of a hotly-debated topic that Epicurus himself thought to be important.

Also, most of us think in terms of prolepsis being related to pattern recognition.

Think about if you were programming a computer to do pattern recognition. In addition to the camera and microphone (equivalents of eyes and ears) you would need some kind of software mechanism to take those inputs and detect recognizable patterns. Without that software mechanism the input of the camera and microphone would mean nothing. But the detection itself cannot be a set of pre-programmed patterns to match against - else those would be "innate ideas." We're talking something more akin to "AI" that can assemble patterns into ever-increasing layers of complexity.

But the faculty of prolepsis is the assembly process, not any particular pattern that is detected or assembled.

And in case we haven't mentioned this recently, a conclusion can be based in part on a prolepsis and still be wrong, Faculties are never true or false, but the conclusions we draw based on them can be. That's pat of the exaplanation for how people can come to so many incorrect conclusions about the gods, even though everyone has their own faculty of prolepsis.

Rolf: Try this analogy:

What is an example of a sight? What is an example of a hearing? What is an example of a smell? You can describe a tree or a song or a flower at a conceptual level, but that is not the question. Trees and songs and flowers are complex conceptual conclusions.

Prolepsis is a faculty, not an idea or a conclusion.

The sense of smell is given to us by nature and we use it all the time without understanding or caring about its nature, so this is an example of a faculty that gives us input to knowledge, but not knowledge iteself.

Anytime you can state an idea as a proposition, such as "there is a god" you are already past the proleptic stage, in my opinion.

And so Velleius does not really reference, to my understanding, "a prolepsis of a god." Rather, he is saying that we have a proleptic faculty which disposes us to thoughts which leads to the idea of a god, just as we have a nose which functions in a way that gives us input into a final conception of a flower.

Now, if what you are really focusing on is the proof of the existence of a god, then it's my view that that proof goes far beyond just prolepsis. I think that's why Velleius then goes on to talk about isonomia, because the particular concept of a particular type of god is another issue for chain reasoning that incorporates other issues, such as the infinity and eternality of the universe and that nature never makes a single thing of a kind.

So the ground floor is back at the point of realizing that prolepsis is a faculty parallel with seeing or hearing or pleasure or pain. It reacts in particular predisposed ways, but it does not itself provide content.

Quote from Rolf

How does prolepsis help to disprove that “all this - including our thought processes - have been supernaturally created”? From what I understand, prolepsis just describes instances of in-built knowledge, right? But not where those preconceptions come from? Couldn’t a supernatural believer still just respond, “well those preconceptions come from god”?

It "disproves" a supernatural basis for thought processes by providing a rational non-supernatural basis for understanding what we observe to be the case in the way people think and make decisions, without resorting to pre--existence or other supernatural arguments. This is very parallel to atomism, which provides a non-supernatural basis for the way the world works. In both cases you're now asking how atomism or prolepsis/canonics "disprove" the supernatural, and the answer to that has to come down to your conclusions about what kind of proof is possible and what is required. If you fall into the belief that only god can provide certainty, then you can never meet that standard -- but there is no reason to accept that supernatural standard in the first place. This is an issue far beyond the prolepsis alone and falls under general canonics, but prolepsis is an important part.

Quote from DaveT

Have I missed something? I tend to think that the prolepsis discussed by Epicurus was based on a limitation of his access to modern science 2,300 years ago. I think it is becoming clearer that a conception that you can know something before you apprehend it, or use your senses to learn it, is not how we know things.

Others may agree with you DaveT, but speaking only for myself I don't think Epicurus would have cared any more what science today says than we should care about what science in 4500 AD will say. We can only live our lives with the information that we have. Epicurus knew that using the word "prolepsis" does not convey all the details of thought, just as he knew that talking about "atoms" doesn't explain all the workings of the human body.

It seems clear that prolepsis was considered to be an advanced topic, and that's why it is not explained at length in Epicurus' letters or in Lucretius.

As to "a conception that you can know something before you apprehend it, or use your senses to learn it, is not how we know things" I don't think that this gets to the heart of the issue. I think the best way to get to that is to read some of the material on the Meno paradox, as that sets out the logical dilemma that Plato was trying to throw in the way of any philosophy based on the senses. To me the prolepsis issue is geared toward that debate, and I suspect that it leads to a lot of spinning wheels to read something "clinical" into it that will improve day to day pleasure/pain decisionmaking.

Catherine Wilson's material is generally pretty good, Noah, and when I have watched her videos I have found her to be engaging and obviously a very nice lady. I also praise her for her willingness to be frank that there are major differences between Epicurus and the Stoics. Many writers try to gloss those over and de-emphasize them, but she does not, and that scores major good points with me.

My major issues with her books is that I think she could combines too many political arguments with her discussion of Epicurus. I think that's a dangerous tendency - to think that one's personal politics are Epicurean and other political views are not. Certainly that can be true to some extent, especially as to religious-based views, but I do not think it is helpful at all for Epicurean philosophy to be portrayed as endorsing any part off the modern political spectrum.

I think you'll enjoy Catherine Wilson's book so by all means read it. For a step up into more detailed philosophy, I'd move to Emily Austin's book. When you are ready for a more sweeping "textbook" style approach, then go to the DeWitt book. There are lots of other good ones as well, but those are particularly helpful.