Posts by Cassius

Quote from DaveT

What philosopher actually proves anything? We've probably dealt with that issue often enough, but my devilish sense of humor drove me to ask it again.

I think Epicurus would say that he has 'proven' that the universe as a whole is eternal and infinite in size and there is nothing "outside" of it. Now obviously that's a different definition than saying "I've been there and seen it and you can rely on me" or "god told me to tell you" but as I understand that is what it means to be a dogmatist. You take certain things to be beyond dispute, with beyond dispute at least meaning that at some point it's not worth wasting further time to discuss. That would be at least analogous to our legal framework of finality.

Quote from DaveT

Would they not have common respect for each other and be able to good naturedly but seriously, poke each other in the ribs verbally on this point or that?

I don't think that's necessarily so. We have the list of disparaging names that Epicurus is cited to have used against other philosophers in Diogenes Laertius, and we have that intensity reflected in Lucretius and Diogenes of Oinoanda at least. Am I saying that they would get into a fistfight? Or refuse to talk to each other? No, but I also don't think that they would say "let's all just get along and spend the rest of our lives having tea with each other.

And in the end, given the intensity that all of them felt about the importance of their philosophy, I doubt any friendly meetings would last much longer than necessary to explore any ambiguities that one felt that they might have about some detail of the other. They would see the importance of their own work as much more important than building bridges for the sake of unity.

Quote from DaveT

don't think anyone needs to fear that comparative points on an Epicurean forum will confuse novice students. I suspect all forum members are already leaning into Epicurus and high level discussions.

That's trickier. Even at this point we're something of a "work in progress." I perceive I personally tend to want to confront other views more than I think that some others wish to do. And it's true that quarreling quickly gets tiresome, especially when it's readily available at Reddit. So that's why we have different sections and levels and try to meet as many needs as possible.

Thanks Martin will fix!

DaveT another example of my personal priority of where to spend time:

(1) I think we need very clear lists and charts and descriptions of the most basic of Epicurean canonical, physical, and ethical positions. That's what I've been working on for months with the material that is on the first page, on epicurustoday.com. That provides a newcomer with a very clear list of things to focus on, and I think that's of primary importance. if people come to grips with those and largely agree with them, then we have firm grounds for studying nature using a shared framework as Epicurus repeatedly advises.

(2) Next, i'm on the alert for pesky issues that continue to intrude on the objective. Those include (A) Stoicism (which I think in many cases translates into "seeing tranquility rather than pleasure as the goal." It also includes (B) "skepticism" - "Epicurus hasn't proved his case because in fact Epicurus CAN'T prove his case because it's really not possible to prove cases from nature in the first place. It appears to me that most modern philosophy but also Kant falls in this general category." Then there's (C) idealism / absolute moraiity - which is where "humanism" comes in, and again where the Kantian "categorical imperative" is involved.

Each of those A B and C in the last paragraph are major issues that most people are going to bring with them when they come to the study of Epicurus. They are also very difficult to dislodge even among some who generally begin to appreciate that the core issue isn't "How much ice cream should I eat?" but "How should i view the world at its deepest levels? (from which you can derive how much ice cream to eat much later on).

And as a specific example of that when I hear it said that "Epicurus' physics are obsolete" what I firmly believe to be going on is that they are not really saying "Epicurus didn't understand subatomic particles so his physics is obsolete." What they are really saying, or at least when normal people will hear, is "Epicurus' was wrong to conclude that the universe is eternal, and that there's nothing outside the universe, and all those questions are not answered, and will never be answered, so we'd better be humble about supernatural forces and life after death and make our Pascal's bargain to learn to live with the possibility that the reilgions are right."

And one of the operating presumptions of this forum is that we are dealing with "normal people" who want "normal lives lived happily" and we're not catering to those who live for the exhilaration that they apparently get from reveling in uncertainty about every question in life. That's a description of the kind of people I think we have here at the forum, and that we want to cultivate. All the while realizing that there are many many people who don't agree with that framework, and that we aren't going to be able to do build the community we'd like to have here if we cater to that second category.

Quote from DaveT

I'd enjoy reading relevant comparisons between E and Kant (and other more modern philosophers) that shows how they are similarly focused. Can it be done without avoiding the differences yet at the same time avoiding disputation?

I definitely think it can be done, and that it would be helpful to do exactly that.

Differences can be sharpened in an unbiased unemotional way. Once we have a sharp view of the differences, then we can pretty easily find the line where we cross into advocacy of anti-Epicurean positions. Those who want to advocate core positions that are clearly anti-Epicurean can receive our best wishes and proceed to do that elsewhere for as long and passionately as they want. And those who conclude that an Epicurean framework allows for the best living can do so here.

For example it seems to me that it should be relatively easy to articulate positions on such core Epicurean views as "error is not in the senses but in the mind. "

Likewise it ought to be possible to articulate what it means to "prove" something.

On that last point I'm see the issue arise regularly: "Epicurus can't prove that the universe is infinite in size or eternal in time."

In my view, Epicurus had very sound reasoning as to why the universe as a whole cannot be otherwise. Obviously there are many local phenomena with specific circumstances which scientists are exploring. In Epicurus' time the question was the size of the sun, how magnets appear to generate action at a distance, and other poorly understood issues such as are listed in Book 6 of Lucretius.

Epicurus was very familiar that there are real-world issues like those for which we currently don't have adequate physical explanations.

But that didn't stop Epicurus from concluding that at the "ultimate" level of the universe as a whole, the javelin argument and similar hypotheticals are sufficient to conclude that we can be certain that no matter how far we go in space there's either "something" there or it not. Epicurus makes no claim to itemize what the various "somethings" might be, but he's say that from our human perspective it makes sense to categorize those things that affect us as "something" and those things that don't affect us as "nothing to us."

That is a kind of working real-world perspective that will take us through life with a practical frame of analysis. It doesn't exclude the possibility that there are in fact advanced civilizations that can create and destroy solar systems and living beings like we can only do in movies. I think Frances Wright was correct to include that possibility in her book. But such beings are not "supernatural" from the "universe as a whole" perspective. The possibility that such beings exist does not therefore negate the "universe as a whole" being eternal or infinite in size.

But getting back to what it means to "prove" something: Suggesting that Epicurus' framework is not "proven" seems to me to be missing Epicurus' point entirely. It's rejecting his combined logic-human experience perspective and suggesting that we require a level of proof that is clearly impossible for a human to possess. It's ultimately "otherworldly" in nature, highly damaging to human happiness, and exists mainly to sneak in a form of absolute morality or Judeo-Christianity-lite just as Nietzsche was suggesting as to Kant. (There's no god to justify my viewpoint, but I still think everyone should reach the same moral decisions - I'll just call it "categorical imperative"! )

Not everyone is going to agree completely with how to analyze these basic issues, but I firmly think that a forum that is dedicated to promoting Epicurean philosophy is going to at largely end up in the same place on the general outline.

It appears to me that the ancient Epicureans thought it makes no sense whatsoever to allow such people to argue such things without pushback, as if they occupy some kind of Stoic / moralist high ground.

So I do think it's important to dispassionately clarify where the issues really are found. After that we can passionately take sides as to the implications of those issues - after we are clear on what they really are.

Ok there's a lot to address there but here's at least a start:

All of the facts you've cited about current levels of penetration into the wider culture are very true from my perspective as well.

But I don't see those facts as the starting point of the analysis.

You can't even begin to penetrate the culture at all with a position until you have a clearly articulated position.

In fact, I'd hazard to say that I am happy that cultural recognition of Epicurus is so low given for what passes as the conventional wisdom about Epicurus.

Nothing exists to fight for in the culture unless and until there is a body of work that effectively translates what the ancient understanding of Epicurus was into modern terms.

So that's the place we have to start.

And I do think that good progress is being made, and I'd put Austin's and DeWitt's books into that category. But "books" aren't the goal either, and are becoming less and less relevant.

What you've described as real people engaging on social media and a regular drumbeat of activity are certainly the goal. But that can't come until we have more people confidently advocating what needs to be advocated.

And that's where AI as a tool become useful. A lot of good work has been produced here and other places, but it needs to be organized and presented persuasively. For example with the podcast in particular I think there has been a lot of useful formulations which most people even here on the forum are not aware of. AI will be useful, as it has been with the transcripts, in getting that material easier to access.

Another example are the "charts" or "side by side" versions of Lucretius and DL 10 and the collections of quotations. Those are all prepared using AI coding and would simply not have been reasonably possible without it.

In terms of social media posting most any of them that get any traction need some kind of graphic. AI makes possible creative and persuasive charts and graphics that would also otherwise be functionally impossible to most of us.

That's the first line of activity I am talking about. We need lots "summary" material that brings argument together in the way Epicurus talked about in Herodotus to enable people to go back and forth between the outline and the details. AI can help a LOT with that.

But no amount of slickness of presentation is going to be of any help if we have no more than a handful of people who can talk about Epicurus without corrupting him with skepticism, with idealism, with "retreatism," with falling into talking about "tranquility" as the real goal of life, with inability to talk about pleasure as the goal of life without apologizing for active pleasures, and characterizing basic aspects of the Epicurean approach to prudence and practical wisdom as obsolete.

Until we've got a core group of activists who are solid on those issues its probably better that our social penetration remains exactly where it is now!

Most of what I've written in this post is directed toward using AI to make more effective presentations. But there's another level too. It isn't a possible or satisfactory goal to "produce an AI version of Epicurus,' because a model is not a living thing and cannot possibly take into account all actual real-world circumstances. But the process of creating an "algorithm" that an "AI version of Epicurus" would follow is almost exactly the same kind of training material that educating real human Epicureans requires.

So that's a second aspect of what we're talking about.

I'll close with saying that I don't think you're being pessimistic. You're one of the people who we really owe a lot to for the work you've put into Epicurus already. It's not being pessimistic to point out what a big job we face because that's the reality. It's food for motivation, not pessimism, just like Lucretius and Diogenes of Oinoanda and many others DID NOT *** let the size of the job stop them from what they accomplished. [*** - thanks for the correction Martin!]

But none of that would have been possible had the earliest Epicureans not articulated the standard. The first step in going forward is to recover that.

Quote from Martin

Within Kant's epistemology, certainty with respect to knowledge about phenomena is possible but the metaphysical claim that that knowledge is the truth about how things actually are is unfounded.

So "knowledge is the truth about how things actually are is unfounded"
is a "metaphysical claim" which is "unfounded."

And as science advances still "there is no superior knowledge from where we could justify that thought."

That certainly sounds to me like the equivalent of making the assertion that because we observe progress in science we cannot claim "knowledge" of anything physical. And since the physical is this world, and we can't claim knowledge of it.

That sounds like the functional equivalent of saying that there is in fact a "true world" which is inaccessible to the senses and toward which we can never do anything more than approach knowledge.

And I would say that it sounds like the equivalence of saying "nothing can be known" to any regular person who has to choose how to live today based on whether there is a supernatural god and reward/punishment after death.

If that kind of formulation appeals to a certain type of "scientist" who are happy to have a theory that makes them feel good, then more power to them. But so far Kant adds up to me exactly as Nietzsche describes him.

As you've said earlier Martin this isn't the time or place for an extensive exploration into how to advocate for Kant. People can go outside the forum for that, where it is readily accessible.

But if you Martin or anyone else who has established that they are well disposed toward Epicurus want to add additional info about exactly what about Epicurus Kant makes "obsolete" then as far as I am concerned the floor will continue to be open to pursue this further.

Thanks Martin. I'll take a look at that aspect as I get time. I suspect in the end the issue might be summarized as "Kant rejected dogmatism and Epicurus embraced dogmatism."

Obviously to drill down into that the word "dogmatism" would have to be defined carefully. I don't know Kant at this point well enough to be sure, but given what you've said it seems you're indicatingthat to Epicurus "dogmatism" means held that "knowledge of some things is possible" and Kant held that "no knowledge of any kind is possible." It's possible that it would be better to state that as "Epicurus held that "certainty about some things is possible" and Kant held that "no certainty of any kind is possible."

If you think those are incorrect then maybe we could at least work toward a general division between the two positions. If you are saying that a significant aspect of Epicurus is obsolete then we ought to be able to at least get clarity on what aspect you're referring to.

Quote from Martin

My own position is that Epicurus extreme affirmation on the real world made sense at his time as opposition to Plato's nonsense, but it is obsolete now, thanks to Kant and others.

Quote from Eikadistes

I deleted my LinkedIn account a few weeks ago.

I want to add into this thread as an aside that I have tremendous respect for the effort that Eikadistes has put into Epicurean philosophy over the years. Not only that, but he's younger than most of the rest of us here and he's having to live through more of the stresses than most of us.

Not referring to him specifically but in general -- for how many years now have people been patronized with "learn to code" as the answer to economic changes?

And now where are we? Coders being laid off in every direction, all at the same time that the competition in some parts of the intelligence-driven job market is greater than ever.

Not just those of us who are older, but to whom and to what can younger people look to to help navigate these issues?

I think Epicurus had uniquely valuable insight into what really matters and how to attack ultimate issues.

I can reduce a lot of the frustration I have with Epicurean writing over the last 100 or so years to the observation that it seems people want to encourage everyone to believe that Epicurus advised "checking out" from society.

I think Epicurean philosophy calls us to "check in" and grapple with problems with everything we've got. Not because we want unlimited wealth or power or fame or momentary physical stimulation, but because this world and this life is all we have, and we have to use it in the best possible way while we can. And that doesn't mean giving in to Platonic idealism or Kantian models based on categorical imperatives or any other kind of ivory-tower logic-based reasoning.

AI hasn't been the cause of these problems. It's the uses to which AI is being put that are ramping them up. If we allow Platonic idealism and its related culprits to dominate the us of AI (or any other technology) then we're just going to get driven deeper into obscurity. Look what the anti-Epicurean world has done over the last 2000 years with just the more primitive tools of psychological manipulation they had available to them. If they are allowed to dominate AI and use it for the advancement of Idealism then much worse is yet to come, and that can't be allowed to happen unchallenged.

Quote from Eikadistes

let's just say I'm really hoping that our species won't split, and everyone connected to AI will become Eloi and the rest of us will become Morlocks.

As some say but I am saying without any sarcasm to you, as the phrase goes, "hope is not a strategy."

I think you're absolutely right to be concerned about that. It seems to me very very likely to happen, so we have to fight against it with every tool at our disposal. Ironically it appear AI itself will be necessary to enlist against those who would use it to produce the result you and I both don't want to see.

Quote from Don

Using your articles specifically, what did the generative AI application give you that you couldn't have brought to the work by composing them without the AI tool?

What does a generative AI tool do to "reach people" that is not available without that tool

Great question. Ultimately nothing that I could not have done alone given enough time and effort. But it is an exponential force multiplier that allows things to be possible in reasonable time and effort which would not have been possible without it.

The graphics are another example - I could "never" have done those myself, yet the "message" of the graphic is entirely at my direction.

Another specific hypothetical:

Suppose a human in 1965 who is creative but not a musician decides that he can use AI to produce a song that is as beautiful and catchy as anything produced by the Beatles, and also specifically brings to the listeners' attention genuine Epicurean arguments as to no life after death and no supernatural gods. It would make Epicurus's name and genuine teaching as famous as any name used as the title of any famous love song.

Now someone is likely going to say "that's not possible" (our Experience machine PD10 argument again) but i am simply going to disagree firmly. If it's not already possible, it's going to be possible soon.

Would a Lucretius or a Diogenes of Oinoanda or a Philodemus say "No, I'm not going to do that, because AI makes me very uneasy. It doesn't matter if I could "change the world" overnight and bring consciousness of Epicurean ideas to millions of real humans at essentially no cost."

I'm sure there are some who would say "Yes that's exactly what they would say - they'd refuse to do it."

And my response to that is that I would diplomatically but firmly disagree.

As in my earlier comments as to the Industrial Revolution, i think the arguments we're concerned about now are already becoming obsolete in younger generations, and the specific concerns we have are going to die with us.

Younger people are already being acclimated to the idea that no image or video or document can be trusted at face value, because it may be AI generated.

That's not entirely a bad thing and it may not be a bad thing at all. We've always had illusions to deal with as Lucretius discusses in Book 4. And much of what we've been taught over the last 2000 years is fraudulent as well. It's probably long past time to take anything or anyone at face value. We should always test whether an assertion is in fact really true, and what implications will arise if it is in fact believed versus those if it is not.

Quote from Don

If an AI application is used to model weather data to predict severe weather and to save lives, . If someone uses generative AI to create computer code and something goes wrong, you can't ask the coder "Why did you write this line this way instead of that way?" Software engineers can be asked. G

Yes as I see it that is the test - the actual result. You would not want to turn loose generative AI without human supervision and without the ability for a human to override the Ai when it is wrong, as it often will be. I think that's pretty much the dividing line between what is acceptable and what is not. Because if indeed we use generative AI to actually and in fact reach people with genuine Epicurean presentations that would not otherwise be available to them, and we also make sure that there is human supervision that allows the human to engage, ask questions, and participate with real humans, then that's in my mind an example where the specificc end justifies the specific means.

Patrikios If I read you correctly I agree with your position.

There is a lot of ambiguity in both "natural" and "necessary" and I think it is very ill advised to be overly dogmatic (in the worst sense of the word) as to what activities or what desires go in each category.

That's why I try to emphasize that the categorization is a "tool of analysis" (which is the way I see Torquatus describing it, as a conceptual framework toward classification but not a bright line) , rather than trying to use the classification as a stand-alone blueprint.

Ultimately I don't think there are bright lines involved here other than the question of whether the desire is unlimited. If you pursue unlimited amounts of something you are by definition going to fail because as a human being you are limited by time and space. That's a bright line, and it can include sex if you choose to pursue unlimited amounts/types of sex.

II added this note near the part you quoted:

NOTE: In case it is not clear already, in the following discussion all specific desires are contextual and relative to the time and place and persons involved. The qualifier GENERALLY should be understood as applying to all specific desires, except insofar as any desire is pursued in UNLIMITED fashion. Depending on context the classification of a particular desire may shift from category to category, but the pursuit of any desire in UNLIMITED fashion is always going to be definitionally unattainable.

Please use this thread for discussion of the merits of the article and suggestions for substantive changes. Posts originally made in this thread regarding the use of AI in the blog post are being moved to the thread below, which begins with this Admin Note:

ADMIN NOTE BY CASSIUS -- I don't have the ability to create my own separate post here at the top of this thread so I am doing that in this ADMIN edit. I am moving all discussion of issues of the use of AI in two blog posts I generated in late March 2026 (of course it's applicable far beyond those) to this thread. I am posting in those original threads links to this thread. The original discussion threads for those articles should be used for discussing substantive comments, criticisms, changes, etc. Issues of the use of AI apply to both and should be made here in this thread entitled "Revisiting Issues of The Use of AI in Epicurean Philosophy"

Thread

Revisiting Issues of The Use of AI in Epicurean Philosophy

ADMIN NOTE BY CASSIUS -- I don't have the ability to create my own post so as to explain this thread so I am doing so in this ADMIN edit. I am moving all discussion of issues of the use of AI in two blog posts I generated in late March 2026 (of course it's applicable far beyond those) to this thread. I am posting in those original threads links to this thread. The original discussion threads for those articles should be used for discussing substantive comments, criticisms, changes, etc. …

Cassius

March 24, 2026 at 9:26 PM

This thread is being used to consolidate renewed discussion of AI in late March / early April 2026.

Quote from Don

If the goal is Epicurean evangelism and the argument is that those ends justify any means, that path leads down eventually (and admittedly hyperbolically) to Epicurean-prompted bots posting endlessly to FB, X, Instagram, etc., and replying algorithmically to human generated questions and comments, just to get the message out.

From my perspective, Epicurean philosophy is a human-centered philosophy based in human senses and human feelings and human reason in response to the natural, material world as humans experience it. Generative AI removes the human element from creative work, and the human element is what gives authenticity to what's expressed in those creations.

I think this does a pretty good job of identifying the issues I am currently considering.

And it immediately evokes in my mind the hypothetical of the "experience machine" and the issues involved in PD10.

The world is currently going through changes that probably are going to exceed that of the industrial revolution. It's commonplace to see movies and articles talking about AI leading to mass population reduction and worse.

Quote

Generative AI removes the human element from creative work, and the human element is what gives authenticity to what's expressed in those creations.

This is the question that is often posed and while I am still thinking it through I don't think I actually or can afford to agree. As to actuality, it doesn't "remove" the human element - it's a tool. And as for practicality, the forces arrayed against "us" - meaning against those who support living according to Epicurean philosophy - are too great to unilaterally disarm and give up this tool, which at the moment I see likely to become necessary forself-preservation.

Quote from Don

that path leads down eventually (and admittedly hyperbolically) to Epicurean-prompted bots posting endlessly to FB, X, Instagram, etc., and replying algorithmically to human generated questions and comments, just to get the message out.

And would that necessarily be a bad thing? Once again the considerations of PD10 apply - if there are methods by which we actually succeed in establishing and preserving an actual community of living Epicureans. would we say "Nah that's not worth the use of AI to do so because I find it makes me uneasy / is despicable"?

The question keeps asking itself over and over in different ways. As I see it, there's no way to get around asking "What is the ACTUAL result of the use of any tool or method - including AI?

At least at the moment my personal answer is that it doesn't make any difference who or what or how a presentation that is accurate, well-expressed, and persuasive is produced. If it meets those tests then it is useful no matter who or how produced. if it doesn't meet those test, then it makes no difference who produced it or how. The only ultimate test is "What happens if we pursue this course of action vs what happens if we don't?"

No doubt different people are going to make different predictions about that result, but I don't think it is justifiable to draw a red line because as we all agree in Epicurean philosophy there is no "fate," and I doubt anyone can justify concluding that every aspect of AI is one of "necessity."

Quote from Don

That summarizes my feelings. No AI was used in the composition of this post (unless you count spell-check and using a swipe keyboard on my phone).

Happy Birthday to Kappa! Learn more about Kappa and say happy birthday on Kappa's timeline: Kappa

At the moment I don't have much more to say about the specifics of labeling, but I do want to share a recent conversation elsewhere which has greatly influenced my thinking on this subject. For those who don't follow the link here's the thumbnail:

HaikuOS is an independent operating system deriving from the old "Be" computer company which folded 20+ years ago. A group of enthusiasts has kept it alive all these years since then, but progress in implementing new application software has been very slow. The following thread was started by a developer there who wanted to use AI to accelerate the pace of development. The thread exploded into harsh division between those who argue for the non-AI-purity of hand coding vs those who think AI is the way to accelerate development of the OS. While there are many differences in context the basic issue of "let's get the job done" vs "every line of code must be done by humans" has some basic analogies to our situation. Without AI the goals of the project might never be accomplished. With AI there are obvious hazards that need to be accounted for. This thread illustrates how the issues involved in AI can lead to absolutist positions on either side of the AI question which need to be avoided.

[TUTORIAL] How to install Claude Code on Haiku – because apparently waiting twenty years wasn't enough

▶ Moderated but left up for historical purposes (Slanderous strawman arguments) Here’s how to install Claude Code on Haiku. 1. Install Node.js and npm via…

discuss.haiku-os.org

Note -- In order to appreciate the context of Tau Phi's post 14, this earlier post is essential context.

Tau Phi I will think you have adequately stated your position as to any AI in this thread here. If you have some substantive criticism of the article please add it too.

I am going to certainly consider your position but I don't expect to require labeling of each and every post or article as involving AI no matter what level of involvement it has.

As I see it the job of presenting and promoting Epicurean philosophy is to express Epicurean ideas clearly and accurately. Holding the line against all AI under any circumstances is not consistent with that goal, and in fact an absolutist position against it would stand in the way of that goal.