Posts by Cassius

Good to have you Lamar.

Couple of points:

1 - This is why I don't care to refer to "hedonism" very often. Epicurean philosophy gets placed into that box with certain other groups, but Epicurus is far more subtle than most, and so "hedonism" gets used as a way to dismiss what Epicurus had to say.

2 - You're basically asking the "friendship" question which is discussed by Torquatus in Cicero's On Ends at the following link. I recommend you read through the full Torquatus section to get a feel for the general approach to all such ethical questions, but friendship in particular starts at 65:

EpicureanFriends Side-By-Side Torquatus

Torquatus himself doesn't take the most aggressive approach, but the most straightforward is the most logical: There is no need to cower in the face of claims that "altruism" or "putting others first" is a categorial imperative. Nature gives us only feelings of pleasure and pain. We take an interest and desire anything only because it brings us pleasure. Once we value a friend or lover highly enough, it brings us pleasure to see their interests fulfilled even if certain interests of ours suffer. And that goes so far that we will at times even die for a friend.

So i wouldn't trouble myself at ALL thinking that you need to live by "hedonism." The standard that applies here at Epicureanfriends and that Epicurus taught is not "hedonism" at all but the entire core of Epicurean philosophy. The fact that you are concerned about this shows that you haven't explored these issues enough -- which is absolutely fine.

Quote from LAMAR__44

but doing this inside of relationships seems to make them feel shallow and transactional, at least for me.

Not to psychologize in your personal situation, but most people pick up this idea from society and general culture, and that's the kind of cultural conditioning that Epicurus warns against when it doesn't make sense when compared to Nature. There is no cosmic or transcental duty of one human being to another human being - bonds of friendship and affection form naturally from community of interest, not because some ideal form exists that compels us in that direction. Examples of this is the discussion of "justice" in the last ten of the Principal Doctrines, and in the discussion of the development of civilization in Lucretius Book 5.

None of us get a deeper understanding of Epicurus without study, and the more we rely on wikipedia or superficial treatments of "hedonism" the more we have to unlearn.

And there's no more complete statement of all this in the ancient record than the full presentation by Torquatus in On Ends.

Glad to have you with us.

Lamar -- Welcome -- please post here as to the subject of the topic and we'll create a full thread in the appropriate place later as needed. Thanks.

Lamar tells us:

Hi, I’ve been interested in Epicureanism for a while and have been reading
the forums at Epicureanfriends for a while now, but I wanted to create a
post on something that I believe hasn’t been touched on which is why I’m
creating an account today.

Welcome LAMAR__44 !

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from wbernys

s his insistence that all pleasure and pain is found in bodily sensation as Torquatus says.

i think this is a misreading if from it you conclude that Epicurus is deprecating mental experience that is not painful as not being pleasure. Everything about us ultimately arises through the body as we do not exist without it. That means anything mental cannot be separated from the body or presumed to exist without the body. Cicero and the antiEpcureans were taking just the position that you are summarizing, but the thrust of Torquatus' defense of Epicurus is that this is not correct. All mental and bodiily experience that is not painful counts as pleasure because there are only two feelings.

Quote from wbernys

Curious for other opinions on this, is he an update on Epicurus crude hedonism for a more developed one or is he kind of mixing Epicureanism with other concerns or rather orthodox?

I see Diogenes of Oinoanda as completely orthodox and consistent with Lucretius' tone as to sympathy for "hearts in darkness." And of course Epicurus' whole career and school-building was outward-facing.

And I don't know what you would mean in referring to Epicurus' "crude hedonism" unless that's coming from the viewpoint of a Ciceronian or modern dismissal of pleasure there as "crude." And it's the Ciceronian and modern viewpoint that I would dismiss as "crude."

This episode is now up. As I reflect post-editing I regret that we didn't give more examples from Sedley's article about emergence (downward or otherwise) but that's a deep subject on its own and one we'll return to in the future. There's a lot more research and reading to be done on discussion in recent years on this topic, including llustrations that are probably much more dramatic than my "water vs H20" example.

Episode 327 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Intelligent Design vs Emergence"

The applicable cliche is hard cases make bad law, but the problem is in the one size fits all law rather than in the cases. If Kant was consistent (and I know nothing about his personal life) he would either follow his categorical imperative or ditch the entire effort.

That's why we have courts of equity and executive clemency and jury nullification, to avoid the harsh consequences of these who seek on size fits all at the expense of individual real people.

Hard cases are very useful for focusing the mind and making sure that we all understand the implications of our positions.

Cicero's dilemma on the Cateline Conspiracy and the phrase "The Constitution is not a suicide pact" are also useful extreme hypotheticals.

Quote from TauPhi

I'm pretty sure this attitude will not get you far in promoting Epicurean philosophy.

it's exactly the attitude that people like Lucretius or Diogenes of Oinoanda displayed in calling Epicurus a "savior" or "father" or a virtual "god among men."

Quote from TauPhi

Proofs, knowledge and reality are very much within a grasp and abilities of most people.

And I see that statement as totally inconsistent with your prior statements to the effect that we can never really know truth about the nature of things.

Quote from TauPhi

In science it's called five sigma and it's a statistical significance which scientists agreed on to call a phenomenon proved to be true.

That may well be so. I have no personal allegiance "science" as if the word "science" is the ultimate religion with "scientists" as the priesthood. My allegiance is to Nature and this world, and to the Epicurean perspective - not "statistical significance " and especially not to "what scientists agree on."

This is a huge point and very clearly stated so thanks for bring it up again. Neither Epicurean philosophy nor this forum is dedicated to "science" in the way I think you mean it and the way that term is most often used today as a catch-all for "expert consensus." That's the equivalent of the Platonic adherence to "wisdom" or "logic" as the goal of life rather than to a human-achievable happiness based on pleasure.

Quote from TauPhi

And narrative where you accuse many people over millenia to be infected with "mind virus" and philosophers other than Epicurus to be regressive doesn't promote Epicurean philosophy at all. It makes it sound insane.

I realize that that reaction will come from quarters which are dedicated to "science" and to "skepticism" above all. That's one of those lines of separation from what Epicurus stood for and what he didn't stand for.

As i am editing this podcast I want to insert this note, that at about the 22 minute mark Joshua quotes Plato as taking the position that there is only ONE created world - not "many worlds." This too is something Epicurus directly contradicts.

As an aside many of these same issues are discussed when Joshua quotes from Timaeus at length in Episode 327 of the podcast (to be released later today or tomorrow). This appears in depth around the 15 minute mark but much of the episode is devoted to it.

The importance of these issues is why we are currently going through "Academic Questions." Plato makes very clear in Timaeus that the impossibility of stating anything about this world as more than "probable" is central to his viewpoint.

As to the arguments in recent posts as to the possibility of knowledge and proof and how to define terms, I want to cite and praise as insightful something that Titus raise in another context

Quote from Titus

What I am suggesting is, in analogy to information technology, an Epicurean thought serving on the kernel level that defines how the operative systems operate.

I think this is an excellent analogy to be brought to bear on the problem.

After 2000 years of Judeo-Christianty and all sorts of philosophical regression, and over 500 years of Pythagoreanism and Platonism and Academic Skepticism and even Democriteanism before that, what has happened is essentially the same thing as a "mind virus at the kernel level" which has destroyed any progress that Epicurus made with his canonics.

The virus is the idea that "proof" or "proving something" requires omniscience, omniscience, and omnipresence -- an unhuman an inhuman level of "certainty" that is impossible by definition for a human to reach. This mind virus has destroyed the ability of many people to think that anything can be "proven" or anything can be "known" or that anything can be "real" if it fails to meet such an impossible standard.

This is why I think philosophy has regressed so far since the Epicurean period. Rather than accept Epicurus' position that there is a reasonable standard of proof grounded in the senses in which the mind IS and SHOULD BE ACKNOWLEDGED to be able to prove things in human terms, such a position is denounced as the ultimate sin. Some will say "sin against god" but the majority of modern philosophers and intelligentsia will consider it a "sin against humanism" in a "good-without-god" kind of way.

This argument entirely dismisses or ignores or flies in the face of what is explained at length in Lucretius Book 4. There it is made perfectly clear that those who say "nothing can be known" are not making a simple error, they are removing the possibility of reason and life itself if they fail to "trust the senses." Not only is that section ignored, but it's not even given a legitimate meaning, because it is also clear that the senses in Epicurean philosophy do not contain opinions of their own - the senses simply provide data from which the mind must produce true or false opinion.

This thread makes clear that the Kantian-like attitude is to say that ALL opinion is false and can never be considered "truth" or "the way reality really is." That's clearly not the Epicurean framework, but people are so infected with this mind virus that they don't even recognize the issue and the self-contradiction implied in their anti-knowledge claim.

That self-refutation is what Epicurus latched onto as the most clear way of explaining the problem, and it's probable that that remains the best argument for the Epicurean position.

As Don might say "Thank Zeus" that this section of Lucretius remains preserved, and we can cite it as a red line for what it means to follow Epicurean philosophy:

Quote from Lucretius 4-469

4-469

Lastly, if anyone thinks that he knows nothing, he cannot be sure that he knows this, when he confesses that he knows nothing at all. I shall avoid disputing with such a trifler, who perverts all things, and like a tumbler with his head prone to the earth, can go no otherwise than backwards.

And yet allow that he knows this, I would ask (since he had nothing before to lead him into such a knowledge) whence he had the notion what it was to know, or not to know; what it was that gave him an idea of Truth or Falsehood, and what taught him to distinguish between doubt and certainty?

4-478

But you will find that knowledge of truth is originally derived from the senses, nor can the senses be contradicted, for whatever is able by the evidence of an opposite truth to convince the senses of falsehood, must be something of greater certainty than they. But what can deserve greater credit than the senses require from us? Will reason, derived from erring sense, claim the privilege to contradict it? Reason – that depends wholly upon the senses,which unless you allow to be true, all reason must be false. Can the ears correct the eyes? Or the touch the ears? Or will taste confute the touch? Or shall the nose or eyes convince the rest? This, I think, cannot be, for every sense has a separate faculty of its own, each has its distinct powers; and therefore an object, soft or hard, hot or cold, must necessarily be distinguished as soft or hard, hot or cold, by one sense separately, that is, the touch. It is the sole province of another, the sight, to perceive the colors of things, and the several properties that belong to them. The taste has a distinct office. Odors particularly affect the smell, and sound the ears. And therefore it cannot be that one sense should correct another, nor can the same sense correct itself, since an equal credit ought to be given to each; and therefore whatever the senses at any time discover to us must be certain.

4-500

And though reason is not able to assign a cause why an object that is really four-square when near, should appear round when seen at a distance; yet, if we cannot explain this difficulty, it is better to give any solution, even a false one, than to deliver up all Certainty out of our power, to break in upon our first principle of belief, and tear up all foundations upon which our life and security depend. For not only all reason must be overthrown, but life itself must be immediately extinguished, unless you give credit to your senses. These direct you to fly from a precipice and other evils of this sort which are to be avoided, and to pursue what tends to your security. All therefore is nothing more than an empty parade of words that can be offered against the certainty of sense.

4-513

Lastly, as in a building, if the principle rule of the artificer be not true, if his line be not exact, or his level bear in to the least to either side, every thing must needs be wrong and crooked, the whole fabric must be ill-shaped, declining, hanging over, leaning and irregular, so that some parts will seem ready to fall and tumble down, because the whole was at first disordered by false principles. So the reason of things must of necessity be wrong and false which is founded upon a false representation of the senses.

That's a statement that the kind of skepticism we're arguing about is a "mind virus" and "at the kernel level" and at the end of the day it's not feasible to live the happiest live possible unless you eradicate it from your thinking. I didn't agree with Titus' analogy that it makes sense to try to get too close to supernatural religions in order to plant such a virus in them, but I think an analogy of attacking skepticism as a "mind virus at kernel level" is extremely useful.

Quote from Martin

My reference to being "Kantian" is limited to him as being named as the original source of the distinction between a model and truth.

if you are correct Kant is apparently saying that truth is never possible, on "models," some of which work better than others. I believe Epicurus would say that this is effectively the same thing as saying that "nothing can be known" just using different terminology.

Quote from Eikadistes

Epíkouros and Kant would argue. Kant wouldn't steal a loaf of bread for a starving child. Epíkouros would have died rather than betray a loved one. They fundamentally disagreed on the question of the divisibility of space, and I think you'd have a tough time convincing Epíkouros that a "thing-it-itself" is any thing at all.

Excellently points by Eikadistes. And this bleeds over into comments by DaveT in another thread. I do not believe Epicurus would view someone who would "fail to steal a loaf of bread for a starving child" as simply choosing another path in life. Epicurus would find that conduct outrageous and deserving of strong verbal condemnation if not worse. Ideas have consequences and this is the kind of result of Kantian ideology that deserves the forcefulness of a Nietzsche to condemn in adequate terms.

Quote from DaveT

I was referring to the progress of philosophy depending on the prior generations of great thinkers.

It's fair to say that I think "philosophy" in general has done nothing but regress since about 50 BC (which I'm equating with the high-water mark of penetration by Epicurean thinking).

Quote from DaveT

Sometimes this forum seems to take on the entire world as if in a black and white challenge to its philosophy.

Well stated!

Quote from DaveT

And yet, it is quite apparent that the goal of the forum is to host reasoned and frank discourse without excessive passion or extremism of any sort.

No, the goal of this forum is not to "host reasoned and frank discourse without excessive passion or extremism of any sort." The goal of this forum is to study and promote Epicurean philosophy. While it is true that what you just described is often the instrument of doing do, the instrumentality is never the goal and there is much "reasoned and frank discourse without excessive passion or extremism" that is totally inappropriate and outside the goals of this forum.

Quote from TauPhi

We certainly can claim knowledge. We can't claim that our knowledge is equivalent to the truth about how things are.

I clipped a number of statements to comment on but probably this one was all that is necessary. Whether we talk about "knowledge" or "truth" or "reality" or any other similar word, the issue is whether we can ever have confidence that our major conclusions about supernatural forces and life after death will ever need to be revised. I see Epicurus as being completely clear that there are issues like that at which we have no need of further observation, and the only compelling conclusion is "no" as to each. Holding those questions open as "maybe there will be new information tomorrow" creates needless doubt and anxiety, and more than that, has no logical basis, because you are speculating without evidence, and to do so means you are willing to give up your grip that Nature gave you on THIS world out of a speculative/imaginative possibility that "something else" may possibly - again without evidence - exist which will contradict the sum total of your and human prior experience.

Quote from TauPhi

ur knowledge will never be the truth about how things actually are. And this statement is not incompatible with Epicurean philosophy.

We disagree. I believe this statement is fundamentally at odds with Epicurean philosophy. In Epicurean philosophy it is "the truth' that there are no supernatural gods and no life after death.

We can all take personal positions on that in our personal lives, but there's only one position on those issues consistent with Epicurean philosophy, and to say otherwise is to simply ignore the totality of what is reliabily recorded. Where in any reliable citation can you find ANY opening for any other position?

Quote from TauPhi

There are only subjective, human faculties in Epicurus' canon: feelings, senses and anticipations.

And based on those faculties it is reasonable to reach confident conclusions which you can reasonably say are knowledge about truth and reality.

Quote from TauPhi

There's not even one canonical faculty that would allow us to measure how things are outside of our human experiences.

The faculties provide evidence on which we are confident that the nature operates through irreducible particles. The faculties provide the data but "true reason" produces the conclusions. That is why the sense are never wrong, but some opinions are wrong and others are right. And those right opinions constitute knowledge of truth and reality.

Quote from TauPhi

Your equivalences sound more like:There are stairs to knowledge we need to climb but we can't see the end of them therefore we must declare that the stairs don't exist.

There are indeed stairs to knowledge, and in some opinions we can have greater confidence than in others. It is skepticism to say that there is a staircase but never a final conclusion on any subject, and that the staircase goes on "forever."

The issue we're focusing on of course is that of dogmatism in Epicurean philosophy, not whether "everyone" has to agree on the subject. People are free to take whatever positions they like, but at some point it becomes obligatory on people who say that they are Epicureans to take a position on whether this is or is not part of Epicurean philosophy.

And this is where I think some of us have come to an understanding: they pick and choose what elements of core Epicurean philosophy they want to adapt, and they label themselves accordingly. That's why you (Tau Phi) have been frank in stating that you are not an Epicurean, and I appreciate your frankness and we operate on those parameters.

We simply disagree on these issues of skepticism. I'll close this post by saying that I'd be happy for someone to cite to me some very clear Epicurean texts that support the arguments Tau Phi is raising, but I don't expect Tau Phi himself to do that because he acknowledges that his position is not Epicurean.+

Quote from wbernys

In all this talk about trying to convert the masses don't forget that interpersonal conversion between friends co-workers or family is probably the main driving factor.

This is a good conversation. I'm pressed for time in writing but just to note quickly:

1 - I completely agree with concerns about not trying to convert "the masses." It always pays to know who you're talking to and not intrude on others who clearly don't want to hear your opinions.

2 - Diogenes' wall is good food for thought. He put up a PUBLIC WALL for all who happened upon it to read. But he presumably did not stand on the corner yelling at people about it either.

3 - And if I recall DL says Epicurus numbered his "friends" in whole cities, and Cicero said that Epicurean philosophy had taken Italy "by storm."

Like with everything else theres a context which has to be worked through in deciding what to say and to whom.

Quote from DaveT

What philosopher actually proves anything? We've probably dealt with that issue often enough, but my devilish sense of humor drove me to ask it again.

I think Epicurus would say that he has 'proven' that the universe as a whole is eternal and infinite in size and there is nothing "outside" of it. Now obviously that's a different definition than saying "I've been there and seen it and you can rely on me" or "god told me to tell you" but as I understand that is what it means to be a dogmatist. You take certain things to be beyond dispute, with beyond dispute at least meaning that at some point it's not worth wasting further time to discuss. That would be at least analogous to our legal framework of finality.

Quote from DaveT

Would they not have common respect for each other and be able to good naturedly but seriously, poke each other in the ribs verbally on this point or that?

I don't think that's necessarily so. We have the list of disparaging names that Epicurus is cited to have used against other philosophers in Diogenes Laertius, and we have that intensity reflected in Lucretius and Diogenes of Oinoanda at least. Am I saying that they would get into a fistfight? Or refuse to talk to each other? No, but I also don't think that they would say "let's all just get along and spend the rest of our lives having tea with each other.

And in the end, given the intensity that all of them felt about the importance of their philosophy, I doubt any friendly meetings would last much longer than necessary to explore any ambiguities that one felt that they might have about some detail of the other. They would see the importance of their own work as much more important than building bridges for the sake of unity.

Quote from DaveT

don't think anyone needs to fear that comparative points on an Epicurean forum will confuse novice students. I suspect all forum members are already leaning into Epicurus and high level discussions.

That's trickier. Even at this point we're something of a "work in progress." I perceive I personally tend to want to confront other views more than I think that some others wish to do. And it's true that quarreling quickly gets tiresome, especially when it's readily available at Reddit. So that's why we have different sections and levels and try to meet as many needs as possible.

Thanks Martin will fix!

DaveT another example of my personal priority of where to spend time:

(1) I think we need very clear lists and charts and descriptions of the most basic of Epicurean canonical, physical, and ethical positions. That's what I've been working on for months with the material that is on the first page, on epicurustoday.com. That provides a newcomer with a very clear list of things to focus on, and I think that's of primary importance. if people come to grips with those and largely agree with them, then we have firm grounds for studying nature using a shared framework as Epicurus repeatedly advises.

(2) Next, i'm on the alert for pesky issues that continue to intrude on the objective. Those include (A) Stoicism (which I think in many cases translates into "seeing tranquility rather than pleasure as the goal." It also includes (B) "skepticism" - "Epicurus hasn't proved his case because in fact Epicurus CAN'T prove his case because it's really not possible to prove cases from nature in the first place. It appears to me that most modern philosophy but also Kant falls in this general category." Then there's (C) idealism / absolute moraiity - which is where "humanism" comes in, and again where the Kantian "categorical imperative" is involved.

Each of those A B and C in the last paragraph are major issues that most people are going to bring with them when they come to the study of Epicurus. They are also very difficult to dislodge even among some who generally begin to appreciate that the core issue isn't "How much ice cream should I eat?" but "How should i view the world at its deepest levels? (from which you can derive how much ice cream to eat much later on).

And as a specific example of that when I hear it said that "Epicurus' physics are obsolete" what I firmly believe to be going on is that they are not really saying "Epicurus didn't understand subatomic particles so his physics is obsolete." What they are really saying, or at least when normal people will hear, is "Epicurus' was wrong to conclude that the universe is eternal, and that there's nothing outside the universe, and all those questions are not answered, and will never be answered, so we'd better be humble about supernatural forces and life after death and make our Pascal's bargain to learn to live with the possibility that the reilgions are right."

And one of the operating presumptions of this forum is that we are dealing with "normal people" who want "normal lives lived happily" and we're not catering to those who live for the exhilaration that they apparently get from reveling in uncertainty about every question in life. That's a description of the kind of people I think we have here at the forum, and that we want to cultivate. All the while realizing that there are many many people who don't agree with that framework, and that we aren't going to be able to do build the community we'd like to have here if we cater to that second category.