Posts by Cassius

It is very helpful to develop many different versions of these graphics as a way of making them better and better and we want to encourage that.

At the same time, we have to be careful of overwhelming the web structure with lots of large MB graphics.

Please try to generate everything as JPGS that are 250k or less. For those that get to be super-well-refined we can find a plave (or store here) mult-megabyte versions.

There are art websites, free storage locations, etc that can be used for this. Anyone who has experience with that or who wants to take the lead in finding locations where files can be stored and then we LINK to them - which is optimal - please let us know and we'll make sure those instructions are easy to find and follow.

Andy if it is something you can talk about I feel sure it would be interesting to hear more about your project.

Andy tells us --

Hi Cassius,

my background is in archaeology and cultural/natural heritage. I'm currently working on a project that focuses (at least partly) on Epicurus and I thought the forum might be interesting and useful.

Regards,

Andy

Welcome EP -

1. My only printed editions of Cicero are second-hand copies of the Loeb volumes I picked up years ago, so I don't know about the Cambridge version.
2. I think the Long & Sedley version is highly useful, but I found my first copy only several years after starting my research, so I haven't traditionally focused on it personally. I always like to say, however, that i've found David Sedley's works to be among the most helpful to me of all the commentators. Almost always when there is a dispute among commentators I find mysef agreeing with Sedley's take. As to Long I am not as familiar with all of his work, but his article "Chance and Natural Law in Epicureanism" is my favorite article on the swerve and what the swerve does and does not mean.

I think Titus' post is very much on point but I would not want someone to misinterpret this part:

Quote from Titus

This is why I consider "simplicity" so important. Without context, "simplicity" is an empty word, but generally it is understood as a way of doing tasks "as much as necessary, but as little as possible", effectively establishing a pleasure-pain calculus

The "as much as necessary but as little as possible" is presumably tied to "tasks" which probably means things that you don't want to do and which generate more pain that pleasure. Because in the field of pursuing pleasures doing things "as little as possible" would not make sense.

But given the possibilities of misinterpreting simplicity as an end in itself it would probably be good to spell that out.

Maybe you could elaborate on that specific phrasing Titus?

Welcome Andy

One more step is required to complete your registration, and three things are required reading before you post.

1. WELCOME THREAD: Please comment in this thread below to acknowledge your new account and to state that you agree to abid by the forum rules listed in the next item. We invite you to let us know what prompted your interest in Epicurus and what particular aspects of his philosophy interest you most.
2. FORUM RULES: We maintain a detailed explanation of our forum history and rules at the page Community Standards, Participation Levels, and Posting Policies. Your signing up for an account is presumed to mean that you have read this page and agree to abide by it in your activity here on the forum.
3. OUR POLICY THAT THE SUPREME EPICUREAN GOOD IS PLEASURE - AND NOTHING ELSE: There are many differences of opinion on how to interpret Epicurean teachings. This forum is dedicated to the proposition that Epicurus taught that the Supreme Good is Pleasure. This means that the supreme Epicurean good is not Virtue or Piety or Logic or any particular type of pleasure. This policy and the reasons for it are explained in Against Katastematic Supremacy - Pleasure Is A Unified Good, Not A House Divided Against Itself.
4. INITIAL READING: Torquatus' Presentation of Epicurean Ethics is the clearest, most complete statement of Epicurean ethics to survive from antiquity, and reading it early will save you -- and us -- a great deal of confusion.

We stress the Torquatus presentation because many people arrive here with a version of Epicurean philosophy assembled superficially from the Tetrapharmakon and the Letter to Menoeceus focusing on "minimalism" and "tranquility" rather than "pleasure." This difficulty stems from the fact that the Tetrapharmakon is very compressed and can be read in many different ways. Likewise, the Letter to Menoeceus was written at a time when the details of debate about pleasure as the supreme good were well known. Those arguments are largely forgotten today, so most people lack sufficient context to understand the implications of the "absence of pain" discussion. Reading the Torquatus narrative first avoids most of those problems because it is by far the most detailed and complete explanation of Epicurean ethics that survives from the ancient world.

Many sincere fans of Epicurus hold views about his philosophy that are incompatible with the purpose of this forum. We are not here to teach minimalism, virtue, or any other point of view except and unless they lead to pleasure. Our goal is not to reconcile Epicurus with modern ideas, but to understand him on his own terms before we decide whether to accommodate him to ours.

Please read through the Torquatus narrative and our articles and other materials on the forum before investing time in arguing against key aspects of Epicurean philosophy. Questions and discussion are welcome, but If you want to argue against Epicurus there are many other places on the internet to do so.

All of us arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies. That's why we have participation levels that give new members room to learn. But please be aware that we reserve the right to limit argument and remove participants who become disruptive to the purpose of the community.

For further study beyond Torquatus, see our Recommended Reading page. In brief: Norman DeWitt's Epicurus and His Philosophy is the single best book-length treatment available, and the one book worth reading beyond the ancient sources. Emily Austin's Living for Pleasure is a good modern on-ramp, best read alongside Torquatus and DeWitt rather than in their place.

No specific reading is required before you participate, and we welcome basic questions. But the more you've read -- and the more you tell us about your interests and comment yourself -- the more you'll get out of being here.

Our Getting Started page also has ideas for using the site.

Thank you again for your interest, and welcome to the forum!

Oh - Robert - I meant to say one more thing:

The overwhelming feeling I have at the moment in my reading of this book is what an incredible waste of time all this debating about katastematic and kinetic is. I am very impressed with the book and I think it's an important step forward but it is the opposite of "Living For Pleasure." A normal person who tries to read this book is going to say "what in the world are you talking about, and why?" As appreciative as I am of the book I doubt I could recommend it to a layman - it's mainly useful only to someone who's debating the precise issue that we are talking about.

What makes me mad is that this book wouldn't be needed at all but for the fact that generations now of writers have created a mess that people like Arenson will need to clean up. We're already at the point where you have serious and qualified academic authorities who take multiple incompatible views of what the distinction means. That leads me to conclude that anyone who asserts that they are the confident arbiter of truth on this issue is blowing smoke. There's enough contradictory inference to support just about any conclusion someone would like to reach -- until you go back to the original Platonic / Aristotelian starting point of the debate.

But one thing I think is clear is that Arenson is completely rejecting the idea that --whatever else katastematic implies -- it is a "non-sensory" experience. All pleasure is sensory or it would not be pleasure.

In today's episode since we are continuing to talk about about the Stoics unwillingness to defend ALL sensations as true, I want us to remember to include:

Cicero, Academica ("Academic Questions"), Book II ("Lucullus"), Chapter XXV (C.D. Yonge's 1853 translation)

Quote

"Therefore you have always one backer who will plead the cause at his own risk: for Epicurus brings the matter down to this point, that if once in a man's life one of his senses has decided wrongly, none of them is ever to be trusted."

and

Cicero, Academica II, Chapter XXVI:

Quote

"There are four principles which conduct you to the conclusion that there is nothing which can be known, or perceived, or comprehended; -- and it is about this that the whole dispute is. The first principle is, that some perceptions are false; the second, that such cannot be perceived; the third, that of perceptions between which there is no difference, it is not possible that some of them can be perceived and that others cannot; the fourth, that there is no true perception proceeding from the senses, to which there is not some other perception opposed which in no respect differs from it, and which cannot be perceived. Now of these four principles, the second and third are admitted by every one. **Epicurus does not admit the first**, but you, with whom we are now arguing, admit that one too, -- the whole contest is about the fourth."

1. Some perceptions are false.
2. A false perception cannot be "perceived" (i.e. cannot count as genuine knowledge) -- this follows once (1) is granted.
3. Where two perceptions are indistinguishable from each other, it cannot be that one is knowable and the other is not -- i.e. if a false perception is indistinguishable from a true one, you can't selectively "know" the true one and not the false one.
4. Every true sense-perception has some corresponding false perception exactly like it, indistinguishable from it -- so no sense-perception is ever safe from principle 3's contamination.

Cicero's own accounting of where each school stands:

• Principles 2 and 3 -- accepted by everyone in the debate (Epicureans, Stoics, Academics alike).
• Principle 1 -- rejected by Epicurus alone. If no perception is ever false, principles 2-4 never get to operate on anything, and the skeptical conclusion has no foothold.
• Principle 4 -- accepted by the Stoics (Lucullus, in this dialogue), which is why Cicero says "the whole contest is about the fourth": the Stoics already conceded (1), so their only remaining line of defense against skepticism is denying (4).

Quote from Robert

One thing that gives me pause: Arenson wants to include "active" pleasures in the katastematic category in part because she fears Epicureans would otherwise lead boring, passive lives. I don't quite get this. Even if all active pleasures (per Sedley) were to be defined as kinetic, that doesn't mean we're supposed to renounce them. An Epicurean's life can be as active as he or she wants it to be, as long as our choices are guided by prudence, courage, moderation, and justice. Contrast two situations

I think she is wrestling with the issues we have been discussing -- she's aware of the argument that katastematic pleasures are somehow superior, but she is not going to accept the definition of katastemtic that equates those pleasures with basically nothing except some kind of ambiguous appreciation, because that would lead to the conclusion that the Epicurean goal is really to DO nothing in life -- and she isn't going to accept that as what Epicurus tought any more than Gosling and Taylor or Nikolsky or Emily Austin did.

I'm not finished yet myself but it appears to me that she's come up with the idea that Katastematic pleasures cannot really be the sensation-free nothingness that some allege, and she's dividing up pleasures into (1) those that respond to some lack or pain or need, and she's calling those kinetic, and (2) those that she's calling "painless" because they do not arise from a pain or lack. That's where she places smelling roses or music or even having sex, I gather (!)

So I'm still processing too, but as far as i can tell she's locked on in the real issue, sees it as a problem, and isn't going to accept it. She's not going to accept the idea that the best pleasure and therefore the supreme good is "katastematic" if that implies something that cannot be sensed. So she's rejecting the common interpretation of katastematic for that reason.

One really significant aspect of her analysis is that she's focusing on constructing something without reference to Cicero because of a combination of his unreliability or the simple confusion he causes.

But I note Robert that you said that you've read chapters 5-8, and I suspect you'll get a different picture when you read her analysis of Plato and Aristotle in the earlier chapters.

After far too long we now have available a "dark mode" version of the "Inspire" theme - the default site style.

If you'd like to try it go to the bottom of any page and you'll see a "Change Style" link.

That will take you to a page that looks like this:

It is best to select either the "Inspire Dark" or "Inspire Light" options. Other options may be listed on your screen and you're welcome to try them out, but they may not work as well.

If you choose the Dark theme and find any popups or screens that look weird or fail to work, please let me know. We'll keep the site default set to Inspire Light, but I'm using the Inspire Dark version and working to stamp out remaining bugs.

Welcome to Episode 346 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we are continuing our series reviewing Cicero's "Academic Questions" from an Epicurean perspective, which gives us an overview of the issues that split Plato's Academy and helps us understand Epicurus' position on the same issues. This week will continue in Section 13 of Book Two.

Our text will come from
Cicero - Academic Questions - Yonge We'll likely stick with Yonge primarily, but we'll also refer to the Rackham translation here: Cicero On Nature Of Gods Academica Loeb Rackham : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

As we proceed through the end of Academic Questions these are the topics we expect to cover:

24. Lucullus's Extended Rebuttal of the Academic Doctrine, and His Concluding Appeal to Cicero (2:XIII)
25. Cicero Begins His Reply (2:XX)
26. Cicero Lays Out the Syllogism About Assent and Opinion (2:XXI)
27. Cicero Turns to Antiochus's Own Inconsistency (2:XXII)
28. Cicero Defends His Citation of the Ancient Philosophers (2:XXIII)
29. Cicero Adds Chrysippus and the Cyrenaics, Then Returns to Arcesilas and Zeno (2:XXIV)
30. Cicero Returns to Attacking the Senses (2:XXV)
31. Cicero Presses the Sun's Size and the Limits of Trained Perception (2:XXVI)
32. Cicero Turns the "Art" Argument Back on Lucullus (2:XXVII)
33. Cicero Multiplies Examples From Madness (2:XXVIII)
34. Cicero Attacks Reason and Dialectics: The Sorites Paradox (2:XXIX)
35. Cicero Presses the Liar Paradox (2:XXX)
36. Cicero Presents Carneades's Own Positive Doctrine of Probability (2:XXXI)
37. Cicero Distinguishes the Academic Position From Epicurus's (2:XXXII)
38. Cicero Defends Probability Against the Charge That It Cannot Support Memory or Action (2:XXXIII)
39. Cicero Answers the "Self-Refuting" and "Two Incompatible Propositions" Objections (2:XXXIV)
40. Cicero Broadens the Argument Beyond the Stoics (2:XXXV)
41. Cicero Reflects on His Own Position Among the Competing Schools (2:XXXVI)
42. Cicero's Survey of Disagreement Among the Natural Philosophers (2:XXXVII)
43. Cicero Presses the Problem of Providence and the Limits of Physics (2:XXXVIII)
44. Cicero's Survey Continues: The Soul, the Antipodes, and the Motion of the Earth (2:XXXIX)
45. Cicero Asks Which Natural Philosopher He Would Even Choose to Follow (2:XL)
46. Cicero Turns to Ethics: Even the Gods Are Disputed (2:XLI)
47. Cicero's Roll Call of Rival Schools on the Chief Good, Part One (2:XLII)
48. Cicero's Roll Call of Rival Schools on the Chief Good, Part Two (2:XLIII)
49. Cicero Weighs Zeno Against Antiochus on Virtue and the Happy Life (2:XLIV)
50. Cicero Catalogs the Stoic Paradoxes About the Wise Man (2:XLV)
51. Cicero's Climactic Debate Between Pleasure and Honor (2:XLVI)
52. Cicero Turns to the Canon of Truth, and Zeno's Hand (2:XLVII)
53. The Dialogue's Close (2:XLVIII)

Complete transcript is here:

Episode 346 - Epicurean Defense of The Senses Against Plato's Cave Analogy

Lucretius Today Podcast Episode 346 -Epicurean Defense of The Senses Against Plato's Cave Analogy

epicurustoday.com

Quote from DaveT

Of course we never want to appear to be relying on a strawman argument to prove a point.

That's correct, but if there is anything i am sure about it is that the attitudes expressed in the world's worst video collection are indeed the majority view, both of laymen and of "experts."

For one of an unlimited number of examples that could be given:

What is the core definition of Epicureanism as established by Epicurus?

Philosophy teaching that modest pleasures lead to tranquility and freedom from fear

Epicureanism, founded by Epicurus, redefines pleasure not as wild hedonism but as the absence of pain and disturbance, achieved through modest living and intellectual pursuits. At its heart, the philosophy seeks ataraxia, a state of serene tranquility, by eliminating fears of death, gods, and the afterlife through rational understanding of the universe. Epicurus taught that simple pleasures like friendship and contemplation are sufficient for happiness, contrasting with more ascetic or duty-bound philosophies of the time. This approach empowers individuals to cultivate a peaceful life by focusing on what truly matters, making it a practical guide for enduring daily challenges with equanimity.

Also:

To which broader tradition does Epicurus belong in terms of ethical theory?

Hedonism

Learn More

Epicurus belongs to the hedonistic tradition in ethical theory, where pleasure is considered the ultimate good, but he refined it to advocate for prudent, long-term pleasures over fleeting ones. This places him in contrast to virtue ethicists like Aristotle, who emphasized eudaimonia through excellence, yet shares the goal of human flourishing. Hedonism in Epicurus's form integrates materialist physics to justify ethical choices, arguing that understanding nature frees us from superstitious fears. Recognizing this tradition helps learners appreciate how Epicureanism offers a sensory-based yet rational path to ethical living, influencing modern discussions on well-being.

>>>>>> Identifying the goal with LONG-TERM pleasure is specifically what Epicurus tells us NOT to do in the letter to Menoeceus: And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant.

This thread is for discussion of the article linked below.

The issue of completeness and perfection was of great concern to the ancient Greeks, and we aren't going to understand what Epicurus had to say about pleasure as the supreme good unless we understand how Epicurus met the Platonic objection that pleasure is never complete. Here's an article with key citations from Plato, Seneca, and Cicero to illustrate what their objection was, and how Epicurus met it. In sum, the issue comes down to whether you think only "complete" things are good, or whether you acknowledge the goodness both of things that are complete and the things that make up complete things. Just as in physics both the atoms and the things made of atoms are real, in ethics both pleasure as a concept and pleasure as individual experiences are good.

Blog Article

The Completeness Argument, Cicero's Knowledge Of It, And The Epicurean Response

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This entry has been superseded. Please read the current version here.

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The Completeness Argument

One of the oldest objections to placing the highest good in anything other than virtue runs like this: the good must be complete — whole, finished, lacking nothing — and cannot be a process, a becoming, or anything that admits of growth or degree. A thing that is still developing toward some end is not yet that end; it is only on the way to it. Plato gives this…

Cassius

August 7, 2026 at 10:42 AM

In regard to this part I think you are part-way to answering your own question:

In the last two years especially, there has been more focus on the forum and in the podcast to gain a deeper context of Epicurean philosophy through study of other textual sources such as Cicero, etc. This newer material might be of interest for the more advanced student. However, for myself, I feel that at times it can begin to cloud up or muddy up the big picture with all the additional layers of contrast between Cicero, Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics, etc. Also, it seems clearer to me now that there are certain interpretive differences that keep occurring. These are due to some subtle contradictions between the Letter to Menoeceus and the Principal Doctrines/Vatican Sayings. This can bring in a feeling of a lack of clarity. The only way to deal with this is to “try it out” or test it.

------

I do not believe that there is any cloudiness or subtle contradictions or lack of clarity inherent in the text of the Letter to Menoeceus or the Principal Doctrines/Vatican sayings. That some people believe they are seeing such things is explainable by exactly what you mention. They do not have in their minds the context of the other textual sources and especially the debates about pleasure that were well known to the ancient Greek philosophers but not to us today. If you don't know the argument that pleasure cannot be the highest good because it is a "process" or "not complete" or is "becoming rather than being." then you're likely to misinterpret references to that issue, thinking that Epicurus has some totally different meaning in mind.

And unfortunately "trying it out" is impossible if you don't know what "it" is. If someone were to infer that "absence of pain" means meditation, for example, and they thought that by meditation they could "try out" Epicurean philosophy, they may find meditation pleasurable but they be not a step further in understanding Epicurus.

The average person living today who picks up the letter to Menoeceus or the Principal Doctrines cannot understand some of its more important aspects unless they take the time to learn why Epicurus was addressing "the limit of pleasure" or "absence of pain" in the first place.

This part of what you wrote is definitely true: Also, it seems clearer to me now that there are certain interpretive differences that keep occurring

There absolutely are many interpretative differences, and almost every commentator has a different take on the issues to which you are refer. From the very beginning you need to know that, as DeWitt says in the first paragraph of the first chapter of his book, Epicurus is at the same time one of the most loved and hated philosophers in history. Everyone needs to realize going in that they are going to have to make up their own minds about what Epicurus was really teaching, and that takes time and familiarity with the subject to achieve.

David given what you wrote about just starting your study of Epicurus, you might find this recent post by Kalosyni -- and the reply to her which I just posted -- to be of particular interest as you get started reading.

Blog Article

Reflections on Five Years on the EpicureanFriends Forum

Reflections on Five Years on the EpicureanFriends Forum

Today is my five year anniversary on the forum, and here are some thoughts and reflections.

My interest in Epicurean philosophy began five years ago during the summer of 2021, just as Covid was beginning to recede. I had come across a philosophy book by a UO professor friend, which briefly mentioned “The Garden”. Curiosity led me to look online to find out more about Epicurean philosophy. I found the EpicureanFriends forum, and was…

Kalosyni

August 6, 2026 at 11:33 AM

Welcome David - And yes you followed the instructions correctly. I particularly appreciate how you emailed us without being prompted, just on the basis of the registration instructions. We have a lot of spam registrations and you are proof that it is possible to read and follow the instructions, so thank you very much!

Enjoy your stay here and be sure to let us know if there are particular questions with which we can be of assistance.

If you are starting out by reading the letter to Menoeceus you will definitely have questions, so don't hesitate to ask.

EpicuriousDavid tells us:

Hi,

I recently signed up with username EpicuriousDavid

I was brought to the forum specifically by searching for 'Epicurus online class', your website showed up and looked very interesting. I was looking for a structured way to learn about Epicurus and his followers. I'm participating in an online 'Aristotle and his successors' course that will very briefly touch on Epicurus and I wanted more in depth resources.

My familiarity with Epicurus is pretty minimal, little more than the knowledge that the Epicureanism of Epicurus is pretty distinct from the Epicureanism of modern usage of the term. Once I complete this email I will read the Letter to Menoeceus for the first time in the Hackett Epicurus Reader.

Thanks,

David

P.s. I hope I followed the instructions correctly?

Welcome EpicuriousDavid

There is one last step to complete your registration: All new registrants must email Cassius so that this Welcome Thread can contain basic information about your background and interest in Epicurus. In that email, please tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. All posting here is subject to our Community Standards, Participation Levels, and Posting Policies -- please read that page; it explains our ground rules and will save everyone time and friction.

ALSO - the Forum has an editorial policy as to the advocacy of anything other than Pleasure as what Epicurus taught to be the supreme good. All prospective members must read this post before proceeding with an account at Epicureanfriends.coom:

Against Katastematic Supremacy - Pleasure Is A Unified Good, Not A House Divided Against Itself - INCLUDES FORUM EDITORIAL POLICY

If you have not done so already, please be sure you have read Torquatus' Presentation of Epicurean Ethics (also available in a more compact side-by-side format at EpicurusToday.com). That is the clearest, most complete statement of Epicurean ethics to survive from antiquity, and reading it early will save you -- and us -- a great deal of confusion. Most people arrive with a version of "Epicureanism" assembled from the Tetrapharmakon, the Letter to Menoeceus, or scattered quotations of questionable reliability -- and of the three, the Tetrapharmakon is the least reliable foundation of all. It is many times more compressed even than the Letter, and terse enough that it has been read in sharply different, sometimes incompatible ways by different interpreters; at best it serves as a reminder of Epicurus's four main topics for someone who already knows their content, not as a source of that content. The Letter to Menoeceus is a real summary, but it too is compressed and was written for students who already understood the foundations of Epicurean ethics. Torquatus is the best surviving example of how Epicurus's own well-educated students understood and presented that foundation themselves. It is the fastest and most reliable way to find out whether what you already believe about Epicurus matches what he and his school actually taught.

The moderators here are well aware that many fans of Epicurus hold sincerely-held views about what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with this forum's purpose. This forum exists specifically for people committed to classical Epicurean positions, not for reconciling those positions with modern "eclectic" reinterpretations that borrow Epicurus's name while rejecting his actual conclusions. Reading Torquatus first is the quickest way to see where that line falls, before investing time in posts that argue against the very foundations this forum exists to defend.

All of us here arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies. We don't demand of others what we weren't able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is different enough from most other philosophies that understanding how deep those differences run simply takes time. That's why we have participation levels that give new members room to learn, but it's also why we have standards that can mean arguments being limited, or participants removed, when the purpose of the community requires it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, isn't committed to unlimited free speech within its own meetings, and isn't organized around anything except the pursuit of truth and a happy life through pleasure as Epicurus explained it.

Please tell us a little about your background reading Epicurean texts, how you found this forum, and what particularly interests you -- that context helps us help you. Our Getting Started page also has ideas for using the site.

Beyond Torquatus, two books will do the most to deepen your understanding quickly. Norman DeWitt's Epicurus and His Philosophy is the single best book-length treatment available. DeWitt treats Epicurus as a coherent system rather than filtering him through later Stoic, Platonic, or modern secular assumptions. If you read one book beyond the ancient sources, make it this one.

Emily Austin's Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life is a clear, engaging modern introduction that many of our members have found a useful on-ramp. Read it, but read it alongside Torquatus and DeWitt rather than in their place, since like most modern treatments it makes no attempt to give the full picture that DeWitt provides.

From there, Epicurus's own surviving letters -- to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus -- and Lucretius's On The Nature of Things are also on the essential reading list. Our Recommended Reading page has a fuller list for when you're ready to go further. None of this is required before you participate, but the more of it you've read -- starting with Torquatus -- the more you'll get out of being here.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Patrikios

So, I don’t see a wide difference in the basic thrust you are making. I see our differences as a result of different lived experiences

Yes, I would agree that different lived experiences are going to have a huge impact on what one views as the goal of living or the highest good. That's why I don't think we see Epicurus talking too much about the details of enjoyment of particular pleasures. As a philospher he's trying to set our a logical map for how to approach the entire topic of ethics that will apply generally to everyone, just as his approach to physics allows him to approach many different physical phenomena.

Episode 345 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "We Can't Find True and Complete Happiness Unless We Have True Knowledge Of What True and Complete Happiness Is"

Complete transcript: