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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    (Quote from Little Rocker)

    That's the weird thing to me on the grammar. The pleasure phrase "in enjoyment, in pleasure" is between the definite article τας and κειμενας. So, paraphrasing your line, it seems to me like it's "those that lie in…
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  • Nate Replied to the thread Plotinus and Epicurean Epistemology by Lloyd P. Gerson.

    (Quote from Eoghan Gardiner)

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  • Yeah, I admit I still think it's 'the pleasures that lie in consumption,' but now I'm intrigued to look at other uses.
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  • What other schools of philosophy are close to your heart? Which schools you find worth studying in detail?
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  • I am sure that *I* am more confused so I am glad you have not let it go. Looking for the word in other settings would seem to be the best approach.
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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    I can't seem to let this go. I searched this morning for other uses of κείμενας in Diogenes Laertius plus I found 2 uses of the specific phrase τας κειμενας in Demosthenes and Diogenes Laertius:

    τὰς κειμένας
    1. (those) deposited (Demosthenes, Against…
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  • I am completely unread in Plotinus so this is interesting to me - thanks.

    But one thing I can say is that I hope it won't be another year before you ramble here again!
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  • I have been heavily involved in catholic circles, it's an on going struggle for me. Neo Platonism is the singular most impactful philosophy on all the big theistic religions whether they want to admit it or not. Islam, Christians and Judaism.

    One of the…
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  • Editing of this episode is not complete but is going pretty well. I do see that I need to apologize however that I was sick for this episode and my congestion comes through - so please remember when you start listening to it that both Don and Joshua…
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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    (Quote from Little Rocker)

    Ah!! Maybe the other translations "sensual" was a circumlocution for sex! That *is* food for thought! Well done, Little Rocker !
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  • Not to lead us astray here, but is it possible this could be a reference to sex? I mean, if we did follow the idea that we're talking about the kinds of things a person might enjoy while lying in bed.
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  • Stephen White
    "So when we say that pleasure is the end, we do not mean the pleasures of the dissolute or those of indulgence, as some mistakenly maintain, whether out of disagreement or malicious distortion."

    Noting that I'm completely ignorant of the…
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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    FYI
    Original text
    Ὅταν οὖν λέγωμεν ἡδονὴν τέλος ὑπάρχειν, οὐ τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς καὶ τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας λέγομεν,

    Saint-Andre
    131: So when we say that pleasure is the goal, we do not mean the pleasures of decadent people or the enjoyment of sleep,…
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  • Thanks Tau Phi, good to see that there is anoher variation out there in the "standard" versions.
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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    I'm leaning towards an interpretation of Epicurus making a contrast between the frenzied pleasures of profligates and lazy indolent (maybe "self-indulgent") pleasures... Maybe?
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  • TauPhi Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    (Quote from Cassius)

    There's a new translation of 'Lives of the Eminent Philosophers' by Pamela Mensch which was published in 2018 by Oxford University Press. I find her translation of the fragment in question much more on point then all the 'sensuality'…
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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    To me, upon further reflection, this seems to echo the contrast in VS11:
    τῶν πλείστων ἀνθρώπων τὸ μὲν ἡσυχάζον ναρκᾷ, τὸ δὲ κινούμενον λυττᾷ.
    For the majority of people, to be at rest is to be bored stiff; but to be active is to be raving like a rabid dog.…
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  • Epicurus does seem to use the standard philosophical ἄπειρος whenever he wants to talk about the unlimited (see KD 20, for example), so while I think it's definitely true that Epicurus wants to correct the misunderstanding that Epicureans pursue…
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  • Cassius Replied to the thread Who to believe?.

    When I get asked the question next time about "which book to read first" I am going to expand it further by including "A Few Days In Athens" in the list.

    Unfortunately for AFDIA, chapter one is probably the least interesting of the whole book. However it…
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  • ThinkingCat Replied to the thread Who to believe?.

    TauPhi - I love all the responses to the 30 word question and there is no right answer, but I identify with yours the most. Thanks for sharing.

    Cassius - that’s a good idea - I will do just that (read chapter one of both). Thanks
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  • (Quote from Elli)

    Elli I wonder here if you are saying that "limits" apply more to "desires" than to "feelings"? That would be an interesting direction to go, with desires being intellectual and requiring intellectual limitation (?)
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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    (Quote from Elli)

    From my reading, The two phrases joined by και are describing two different misunderstandings that Epicurus is trying to refute.
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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    (Quote from Elli)

    The construction of the two phrases is very similar:
    1. τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς
    καὶ "and"
    2. τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας
    which Epicurus seems fond of doing in pairs.

    τὰς ἡδονὰς "the pleasures"
    τῶν ἀσώτων "of the prodigal"

    τὰς κειμένας…
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  • Elli Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    κειμένων απολαύσεις = naughty enjoyments or lethargy enjoyments or (I found you a new greek word for "sleepy" "ενύπνιες" [enypnies] enjoyments. :sleeping:
    No, dear friends the enjoyments are enjoyments, and the only they have are LIMITS.

    A profligate would lough…
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  • Elli Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    Don You wrote: "I still don't see how you're going from <those that lie in enjoyments> to getting [ those enjoyments that are out of limits]".

    And I do not see how you're going from the feelings (enjoyments) and intepret them - metaphorically - to…
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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    (Quote from Cassius)

    I'll be happy to email him even though the Epicurus texts were posted on 2011. Hopefully he'll remember ^^
    PS: Emailed.
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  • Cassius Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    Just for the record too, I guess we could consider asking Peter St Andre directly about his thoughts. I have never had any communication with him in the past so I am not aware whether he is reachable or not.
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  • Don Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    Epicurus is writing about two mistaken ideas about his philosophy here: he does not mean the pleasures of the profligates *nor* τας εν κειμένας απολαύσεις. He is refuting two mistaken understandings of his philosophy. He could very…
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  • Elli Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    We can connect the whole issue on "the enjoyments of the profligates" with the VS 11 (see photo) the word "ναρκά" that used by Epicurus means "lethargy". However, a profligate is not in a situation that he is not doing anything, he is just prone to…
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  • Elli Replied to the thread Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre.

    <τας εν κειμένας απολαύσεις> = <those that lie in enjoyments> [ those enjoyments that are out of limits] and this is what Epicurus means. :)

    1) "Κείμαι" is one greek word and means "I am, be located, I find myself, I lie around".
    2 ) "Kοιμάμαι" is…
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