Posts by wbernys

Quote from Eikadistes

The Garden was not mentioned once at any point in my formal education.

Trust me @Eikadistes that may be for the better.

I had a class on Ancient Greece and we talked about the philosophies of the time briefly. The professor was rather great aside from this but man he was really bad with Epicureanism. As you can imagine he was practically gushing over Stoicism (and to a lesser extent Plato) and defended them against accusations of being unemotional for an entire hour and 15 minutes class.

But when he got to Epicureanism he only spent like 20 minutes on it said and i quote (no exaggeration). "Epicureanism teaches that being on fire should be seen as no big deal because it's all just atoms in the end and that all pain is nothing because it's all just atoms and all things dissolve in the end. There's no point so just eat, drink, and be merry What a lovely philosophy". He also said Epicurus was an Atheist. Didn't mention anything about the desires, friendship, or dealing with the fears of death.

Welcome ReiWolfWoman !

Quote from Cassius

So regardless of the rest of the implications, one of the basic questions is apparently: Did Epicurus number friendship as being among the virtues? (Or considered under the category name "virtue.")

I also heavily lean towards saying yes as well. In large part because Philodemus himself seems to list Making Friends itself as a virtue.

(… it is impossible for one to live pleasurably) without living prudently and honourably and justly,¹⁰ and also without living courageously and temperately and magnanimously, and without making friends and without being philanthropic, and in general without having all the other virtues.

This is somewhat countered by Torquatus thinking they are separate but it's important to remember that despite it being a favorable view of Epicureanism, it is ultimately Cicero's presentation of Epicurean ethics and not ultimately a work by an Epicurean himself like with Philodemus.

"For, as in the case of the virtues which I have already mentioned, so too they deny that friendship can ever be separated from pleasure."

I myself suspect Epicurus would put making friends under the category of wisdom or honor under PD5, since Friendship is a thing a wise man would eagerly do in order to increase his own security via friends. Although i wonder if this also implies the study of natural science would also be a virtue.

Wanted to share a great article other users may like by Orestis Karatzoglou, he makes a particularly strong point how will writing is so easily justified by the main principles of Epicurean Friendship and allows to feel more secure, in other words showing to friends that we care enough about them that we will take efforts to care for them after we pass enhances the core trust that is required by friendship, the author explains the Epicureans saying "It is more pleasant to give than to receive". Society as well will also generally give us good will and esteem as well if we act in a way to ensure well being to future generations. In my view, this also explains caring for unborn and foreigners and can generally be put under Epicurean honor and philanthropy. Since this enhances the trust of friendship and our security to life's pleasure in society, so essential for a pleasant life.

Felt other might really like, a rather intelligent argument. The best I've come across. And easily refutes Warren and any questions (as i myself shamefully asked) about how Epicurean Diogenes of Oenoanda was.

Can Epicurus Write a Will

Cicero criticizes Epicurus for writing a will and thus acting inconsistently with one of the basic tenets of his theory, namely that death is not an evil (De…

www.academia.edu

Quote from Cassius

And I don't know what you would mean in referring to Epicurus' "crude hedonism"

I just put that as an option in case others view his hedonism as more crude. I don't really agree but still some people will say it so wanted that as an option.

The only matter I may consider Epicurus a little crude I think is his insistence that all pleasure and pain is found in bodily sensation as Torquatus says. I think things like a "guilty concious", love of helping strangers like with this inscription, and wanting to win praise after death which Diogones of Oenoanda actually mentions is difficult to view as taking origin in bodily sensation, happy to be corrected on this though.

I recall @Eikadistes mentioning how Diogones of Oenoanda strong statements of empathy sound almost Judeo-Christian.

"I have therefore composed this inscription, because I consider it a part of wisdom for a good man to give benevolent assistance, to the utmost of his ability, to those men who are capable of receiving it."

"In addition to my fellow-citizens who are in this predicament, I desire to help future generations, for they too, though unborn, belong to us, as do any foreigners who may happen to come here."

Curious for other opinions on this, is he an update on Epicurus crude hedonism for a more developed one or is he kind of mixing Epicureanism with other concerns or rather orthodox?

Great collection of qoutes @Eikadistes !

I feel like the main focus right now should be on actually connecting personal relationships. I'm really trying to convert my father into really liking Epicurean philosophy as a great remedy which fills you with joy and loaned him the Emily Austin book to read.

Always remember that Epicurus himself just started by meeting a few people like Metrodorus and interacting with his family and brothers and converting them to his cause.

In all this talk about trying to convert the masses don't forget that interpersonal conversion between friends co-workers or family is probably the main driving factor.

And above all else attest to the wonders that Epicurean philosophy does to bring joy to the soul, Christians entice people with heaven and we need to entice people by showing how our philosophy leads to happiness. My father mainly got interested after I had tested how much Epicurean philosophy filled me with gratitude for what I had.

Quote from Don

For whatever the definition of "winning" is, the Stoics are winning in the wider modern world. Epicureans are a small fish in a VERY large pond, with most people not having any idea we exist

I am perhaps less pessimistic than you on this Don, Emily Austin pointed out that philosophers at a convention felt no one could even defend Epicureanism (it's why she write the book and it went on to be the most popular in the series bu far)

We definitely have a long way to go but considering how censured Epicureanism is, officially for a while and still to sone extent, Especially by the Christian populace which is religiously not allowed to accept epicurean ideas unlike the stoics and Plato. Still i think Austin and this community growing is a sign in the right direction. But these things take time.

I actually think we're mainly hurt by modern Stoics really being Epicureans who don't wanna admit it, they define virtue as something which is good because it leads to a good life rather than good because I dunno divine fire God in you said so. This is why I love Austin's book cause she really takes Stoic to tasks for hypocrisy and slaughtered bird entrails.

Hello j.tycherne! Happy to see someone who loves the letter to Menoceus as much as i do, and you're right to love the parts rejecting belief in fate, a belief which does nothing but inflict pessimism and misery on the hearts of mankind. I do my best to read it and the Vatican Sayings as much as possible, constantly filling me with joy. Of all the shorter works of Epicureanism these are my favorite.

And please don't apologize for any ignorance, we all start ignorant but what matters is aspiring toward wisdom, and you're already on the right track, as Seneca quotes Epicurus "The knowledge of sin is the beginning of salvation!"

Happy to have you!

Welcome ludenbergcastle

Welcome MCTIMKAT!

Quote from Kalosyni

Thanks for sharing this here, and this is an interesting project that perhaps all Epicureans should take on

I was mainly inspired by Emily Austin's advice to actually write Epicureanism in order to appreciate it. Philodemus apparently said one should wrote criticisms of oneself and wrote down Epicurean doctrine to fully appreciate the tenets of Epicureanism.

I do a journal entry around every Eikas and I can attest it does wonders for mental and bodily health. Recommend others do it.

Quote from Patrikios

Could you provide your definitions for these terms, or is there an Epicurean text that groups these 4 virtues as essential?

Even though Epicurus himself didn't list these virtues both Torquatus and Philodemus both mention all these virtues (Philodemus mentioning even more) as essential. Torquatus chiefly mentions the four cardinal virtues as essential and gives detailed reasons to why from an Epicurean lens and Philodemus list these as essential but doesn't really give detailed reasons beyond avoiding pain. DeWitt and Philodemus list of virtues is what inspired my own recent list.

Philodemus lists all of these essential in "On Choices and Avoidances" (From Twentiers website) saying: it is impossible for one to live pleasurably) without living prudently and honourably and justly, and also without living courageously and temperately and magnanimously, and without making friends and without being philanthropic, and in general without having all the other virtues. For the greatest errors in choices and avoidances occur when some men perform each action while holding the opposite views, and thereby while being constrained by evils.

For Wisdom (Prudence) is the source of enlightenment and the guide to tranquility Torquatus says: For it is wisdom alone which expels sorrow from our minds, and prevents our shuddering with fear: she is the instructress who enables us to live in tranquility, by extinguishing in us all vehemence of desire.

Epicurus describes Prudence as the source of every other virtues saying: Practical wisdom is the foundation of all these things and is the greatest good. Thus practical wisdom is more valuable than philosophy and is the source of every other excellence, teaching us that it is not possible to live joyously without also living wisely and beautifully and rightly, nor to live wisely and beautifully and rightly without living joyously For the excellences grow up together with the pleasant life, and the pleasant life is inseparable from them.

For Temperance, is it considered the thing which protects us from recklessness and ensures long term pleasure from indulging in bad desires. Torquatus says: For temperance is that which warns us to follow reason in desiring or avoiding anything. Nor is it sufficient to decide what ought to be done, and what ought not; but we must adhere to what has been decided. But many men, because they are enfeebled and subdued the moment pleasure comes in sight, and so are unable to keep and adhere to the determination they have formed, give themselves up to be bound hand and foot by their lusts, and do not foresee what will happen to them; and in that way, on account of some pleasure which is trivial and unnecessary, and which might be procured in some other manner, and which they could dispense with without annoyance, incur terrible diseases, and injuries, and disgrace, and are often even involved in the penalties of the legal tribunals of their country.

For Courage: Torquatus says it is the ability to endure pain for the sake of greater pleasures and be brave in the fact of death, holding to true reason saying: These considerations prove that timidity and cowardice are not blamed, nor courage and endurance praised, on their own account. The former are rejected because they bring pain, and the latter are coveted because they bring pleasure.

For Justice: Torquatus describes as a pact of agreeableness and ability to live securely and with goodwill among your neighbors saying: Men of sound natures, therefore, are summoned by the voice of true reason to justice, equity, and honesty. For those without eloquence or resources, dishonesty is not a good policy, since it is difficult for such men to succeed in their designs, or to retain their gains when once achieved. On the other hand, even for the rich and clever, generous conduct is more in keeping, because liberality wins them affection and good will, the surest means to a life of peace. Even more, there really is no motive for transgression, since the desires that spring from nature are easily gratified without doing any man wrong, while those desires that are imaginary can be resisted

It is kind of a reddit term so on second thought I'm gonna remove it.

Effort post just means something like long post with effort put in..

We are often slandered by Stoics and the religious as devaluing the virtues, as though treating them as “mere means” strips them of beauty. Truly, the virtues are means. But this does not devalue them in the least. On the contrary, by understanding the Epicurean conception of virtue as inseparable from living pleasantly, we learn to love virtue more deeply than anyone, because of the beautiful life it gives us. Unlike the vanity of the religious who promotes the virtues out of fear, or the Stoics who sing an empty name of virtue unconnected to the beuriful life they give, we Epicureans sing the song of virtue triumphantly as I wish to show.

So allow me to prove the slander wrong by speaking poetically, piously, and with utmost gratitude toward the virtues. To prove that the elegant praise of virtues do not belong only to the Stoics or the religious. It belongs to us as well. It is my hope that this clarifies our position and inspires delight in the teachings of Epicurus, even among those not yet come to the philosophy.

With that said, let us turn to the virtues and how they are necessary for living pleasantly.

Wisdom: The crown of the virtues and the source of every other virtue. Prudence teaches us how to choose and avoid the fine art of living, arming us with knowledge of every other virtue and guiding us toward a life full of pleasure. It shows us that the gods present no fear, death no worries, that the good is easy to obtain, and what is terrible is easy to endure. Without prudence, pleasure cannot be secured.

Honor: The gentle grace the guides us to life's pleasures. Honor is the wisdom of conducting oneself in a way that avoids needless offense and easily earns respect. We know that we cannot please everyone, only a fool would think this, but we by respecting reasonable customs and dignity of others, we can easily secure the goodwill and affection of our neighbors, a secure means of pleasure. In doing so, we may even soften hostility from fools and people filled with hatred, turning former rivals into allies through simple consideration and respect.

Justice: The ground beneath our feet, it gives us security from other men, allowing us to operate life free of anxiety, for injustice pollutes the mind, if not by the actual penalties of the law, than always by the fear of discovery, the association with vicious people we don't trust, the sacrifice of things that truly matter, the just hatred of our fellow men, and the guilty conscious stemming from acts of injustice.

Courage: The sword against the fears of pain and death. Courage allows us to endure temporary pain for greater pleasure. It strengthens us to act rightly under threat and even, if necessary, to die for a friend, since death itself is no evil, while a life preserved at the cost of betrayal is poisoned by distrust and inner turmoil. Courage destroys the fear of everlasting torment — for none exists. It dissolves the terror of death, which is nothing to us. It casts down the image of angry gods and opens the way to the greatest pleasures by removing fear at its root.

Temperance: The greatest armor of everlasting pleasure in life, it ensures we are safeguarded from our own follies by means of true reason, telling us to not choose pleasures which lead to pains many times worse than the pleasure they bring. Advising us against those vain and groundless desires for limitless wealth, fame, or power, and those natural desires that are hard to get or likely to cause pain.

Self-Sufficiency: Freedom itself, showing how easily we can resist the harm of relying on the unstable force of fortune, and reminding us how easy it is to procure that which is acquired by nature. Showing us how easy it us to free ourselves from the vain and groundless desires which stretch on to infinity and making even the poor man feel wealthy in every way that matters.

Making Friends: Of all that wisdom provides for living one’s entire life in happiness, the greatest by far is friendship. Friendship gives affection, security in danger, shared joy, and trust in adversity. It is among the greatest goods life offers. We must speak well of our friends, present or absent. Show gratitude in word and deed. Not reduce friendship to a transaction, nor pretend we expect nothing in return for mutual goodwill and hope strengthens the bond and thus life itself. For wisdom shows us that a poisoned friendship poisons life itself. But nothing enhance life more than a faithful friendship.

Piety: Far from the slander that Epicurus was a god-hating atheist, he taught a purified reverence. A proper conception of the gods, whether as ideals formed in the mind or as blessed beings existing beyond us, does not inspire fear. It inspires admiration of blessedness. The gods, rightly understood, are models of tranquility and immortality. They do not threaten. They do not punish. They show us what blessed existence looks like and how it is to get even with a mortal life. Truly I declare, with bread and water, friendship and wisdom, we may rival even the gods in happiness.

Frank Speech: How can we hope to improve ourselves and our friends unless we're willing to criticize and be criticized in open and free speech? We need the sympathy of our friends to sometimes save us from our faults and we need to show sympathy to our friends to better improve them. We must show patience, a proper understanding of what truly matters and what does not, and a understanding of our own faults as well as those of our friends in open and respectful dialouge to truly achieve the peaks of friendship and security.

Magnanimity: Tell me, how can we hate one who makes mistakes, when we know that we ourselves make mistakes? Magnanimity teaches forgiveness where forgiveness is deserved. It prevents punishments disproportionate to the crime. It transforms enemies into friends, earns goodwill and affection, and frees us from empty anger — that corrosion of the soul which disturbs and destroys what we most value. Resentment disturbs. Forgiveness restores peace.

Philanthropy: Unless we commit to helping others, we cannot reap the rewards of their goodwill. Thoughtful concern expands our circle of friends, enhancing both security and affection. A life of greed breeds righteous contempt. A life of generosity earns righteous respect. Enhancing our life immensely with simple acts of charity, courtesy, and love of mankind.

Faith: The radical skeptic, who rejects trust in life itself, is left paralyzed and confused. We must say, without some firm trust, life collapses into endless doubt, a fate worse than even a person who fears the Gods, since at least they have hope of deliverance. Rather we must have confidence to navigate life with clarity, confidence that we can have knowledge, that we can control our own destiny and some actions are up to us, that our senses reveal reality as it appears; that the gods do not punish, that death brings no suffering; that the good is easy to get and the evil to endure, that our friends are trustworthy, and that wisdom steadies us in misfortune. Without faith, there is paralysis. With it, there is peace.

Hope for the Future: Without hope, the present becomes bitter. Even if no deliverance from misfortune ever comes before death, the very act of hoping preserves sweetness in the present. Hope is defiance against despair. Even hope for goods after one’s death can be a blessing, as seen in Epicurus’ will, where he provided for the preservation of his community of friends, giving him joy on his last days. To prove the power of hope, tell me, who would you rather be at your final moment? One who still anticipates good and is delighted even in the worst misfortunes with anticipation of the future, or one who believes pleasure has forever passed them by? Hope strengthens the present. And if deliverance does come, hope is vindicated all the more.

Delight in the Past: Memory of past goods gives us our greatest guardianship against misfortunes. Another great act of defiance whenever life or men do us wrong. One should not look at the past with fear but rather take delight in the many pleasures we have had in life, every feeling of laughter, excitement, hope, joy, friendship, and affection we have felt. Epicurus himself proved this as he was dying painfully from kidney stones, he wrote that these pains, though extreme, were offset his past delight in his conversations with his friends. Delight in the past shows us not to feel dismay at the prospect of the missing future goods, but rather delight in all the goods of life that we did have, and even when death finally comes, go to the grave with a triumphant song that we have lived well.

Enjoyment of the Present: Yet none of this matters if we cannot enjoy the present. For just as life is diminished not only by hopelessness about the future or regret about the past, is it also poisoned by the failure to savor what is here. Wisdom teaches the good news of life, no one is too young, too old, too broken, or too imperfect to live a good life. Showing us that happiness is never out of season. Delight in the past. Hope for the future. But above all, enjoy the present.

Hope people enjoy this piece! For me the pleasure i got just from writing is enough for me, but if others enjoy it, all the better. Please never stop feeling delight in the simple art of living offered by Epicurean philosophy. For someone who has these virtues and the pleasures they bring is like a god walking among men."

Here's a link

Bill Wringe, Epicurean Wills, Empty Hopes, and the Problem of Post Mortem Concern - PhilArchive

philarchive.org

As is typical I find a good article after making a post.

If anyone else is interested in this question I found a good article by Bill Wringe called "Epicurean Wills, Empty Hopes, and the Problem of Post Mortem Concern" which responds directly to Warren and defends Epicureanism. I think it rightly points that difference that only harmful empty beliefs are to be removed but hopeful ones not so much.

"I shall claim that although an Epicurean should regard fears about post mortem events as ‘empty’, it is reasonable for him or her to have a different attitude to hopes about post mortem events. It is rational to try to get rid of empty fears, since such fears are disturbing. By contrast, it is not necessarily rational to try to rid ourselves of hopes relating to post mortem events.”

Quote from Cassius

But I've found that there are writers I almost always find to be insightful, such as David Sedley, and then here are others who aren't.

Agreed, I feel like a common thread to the less insightful commentators is ignoring Epicurus aim of being a moral reformer and therapist as DeWitt explains. Emily Austin also i feel understands this point of Epicurus mission. I think philosophers like Warren get too caught up in the mental image of Epicurus as a secluded grouch who's only concerned is with internal logic ignoring his main stated goal of ensuring people live pleasantly.

On the past for example he both encourages extreme gratitude for past goods and shuns being tormented by past evils, which sounds inconsistent, but only if you ignore his concern of pleasure as the chief good, not absolute internal logic like a dialectic. I feel like death is the same, his concern is fear, not absolute consistent logic.

A strong objection to Epicurus found in Cicero and discovered in Warren (2001): Epicurus' Dying Wishes is that writing a will, and providing for people after die, such as Diogene of Oenoanda stone writings cannot be justified with Epicurus claim that "death is nothing to us".

In particular Warren objects to the notion that we can derive pleasure from thinking that our loved ones will be okay after we die since this would arguably also admit that we can anticipate pain about things after we die which Epicurus seems to call groundless saying in letter to Menoeceus saying "For something that causes no trouble when present causes only a groundless pain when merely expected."

My own response would probably be that it is in fact groundless, agreeing with the criticism, but saying that if writing a will delivers pleasure and alleviates the natural pain of worry about loved ones after death, offering no pain to living and requiring little effort than why not? Just as we know sex, entertainment, and other natural and unessecary desires don't alleviate any more pain after sastifying all the natural and nessecary desires but if we still want them and are easy to get and cause no pain than why not? The reason we get rid of post-mortem fears is because they pain us while alive, but if post-mortem hopes please us than it's fine to have it and it passes the hedonistic calculus despite being metaphysically groundless like the natural and unnecessary desires.

Curious to see any thoughts on this.