Posts by Adrastus

Thank you Cassius... I suppose at face value this is indeed a failure, but I see it as a rare species of victory. Long ago struck covenants made in the darkness of poor reason, blindness and rejection of the self and other states of poor reasoning are doomed to either pain or dissolution, or both. To let go of them, to let them flow as they may is a liberation; plucking the softness and surrendering the bitter. I see much of my life as having made many, many smaller failures of philosophy, self-forgetting and self-denying in the name of some supposed greater victory of virtue and now I have finally made a course correction even in a much later hour due to finding true philosophy and right practice. Now, I am finding all desires and all sensations are pursuing creative and discerning fullfillment without the weight of maintaining a virtuous form even if we tried to make it as light as feather. I am writing, reciting, teaching and reading poetry - engaging with beauty for the first time since primary school. Clarity and love abound in the soul for we humans. Practical philosophy of aesthetics and pursuit of beautiful action are let loose, and loving and admiring people in novel, consensual and discerning ways are cropping up... rare forms of friendship and intimacy are in bloom and even desires repressed are being driven towards delicacy and new and exotic virtuous forms.

Verily, all Virtue rests and is built on the foundation of Hēdonē.

Yet another turn in the road of life and I find Epicurus and the Sages have already been here and offer a salve.

"I spit upon the beautiful and those who vainly admire it, when it does not produce any pleasure"

As I navigate a very amicable separation and co-parenting arrangement with my ex-partner this oracle has presented itself from my memory as the correct approach. Even a beautiful form like a generally pleasant and peaceful marriage and family lifemust not get in the way of the Pleasant Life if it no longer offers it. In this moment I read it is a way to manage the loss of a pleasant form that became untenable and unpleasant over time. I need not mourn long but even reason towards shunning what was to dodge falling into an unpleasant state again. Beautiful forms, however beautiful and virtuous, must face the measuring stick of the Canon.

Note: Given how damned awkward this subject can be I will simply say I am actually pretty unburdened by dourness and flying high emotionally from this among other emotions and the ex-partner and I are fully committed to Friendship and partnering in raising the children. So no need for any sort of expression of condolences if you, gentle soul, are so inclined. I just wanted to share a new perspective I had on what might be a baffling oracle from Epicurus or original Epicureans.

I generally don't discuss hedonism with adults, but my children are wonderful little hedonistic philosophers, especially with the sort of body-focused ethics that they are taught in their school.

My daughter (7 years old) came up with an interesting insight I had not yet considered on the usual subject of sweets. I was describing that the belly gets a bad rapport because people associate it with overeating or eating too many unhealthy things; BUT our stomach can guide us in all sorts of other things besides being hungry, such as moral conundrums, intuitions, danger and perhaps more; besides just whether or not we experience hunger. So therefore we should listen to our bellies about a lot of things. To which my daughter replied that it's actually our tastebuds we need to watch out for. This impressive (to me at least) technique or process of seperating out into various parts of the body the health and ill-health of eating lead us on an exploration of how the mouth can salivate and how that is a sign, often, that we are about to eat something that is both delicious and good for us as we don't seem to salivate when we are going to eat a treat (at least I don't). And that sometimes our minds are fickle things and that they too can be in cohoots with our taste buds in wanting to eat unhealthy treats all the time; but we've established our belly usually stays true to what we more often should choose and avoid.

All of this is to illustrate that a discussion of hedonism that is not discussing the range and diversity of sensations coming from various parts of the body isn't really a worthwhile approach to hedonistic thinking to me. One that gets stuck in neurochemical reductionism is tough to suss out as we do not experience this chemical bifurcation of object and subject in reasoning hedonistically from sensations, rather we experience everything embodied. Therefore a child trained in listening to their bodies has been, for me at least, a most worthy philosophical partner when it comes to the subject of hedonism as they have not been incultured to ignore their bodies.

And I'll end with this enormous statement by our Sage:

“The beginning and root of all good is the pleasure of the stomach; even wisdom and culture must be referred to this”

I am pretty 'bah, humbug' about Halloween as it is celebrated around here and find it deeply unpleasant. I think it trains for painful anticipations and painful attitudes towards death. There is no exchange of wisdom about death or the ancestors. There is no learning about the nature of death, but showing off unrealistic and grotesque forms. We don't even walk from house to house anymore and instead grab candy out of a trunk as if we must streamline everything and the candy is all that matters in what has become a gross, empty holiday. Also the weird classist discourse of going only to the rich and gentrified neighborhoods to get the "good candy" rather than trying to build anything real in our own communities. Probably get arrested if we tried public-facing "tricks". Halloween is everywhere as people leave their jarring skeleton and ghost displays up all year which is I suppose is slightly better than a Neighborhood Association and perfectly maintained lawns. People have little social sense, or people's standards are rock bottom for propriety or we have just come to expect public displays of inward expression just everywhere. Culturally it's just devolving into an extension of the increasingly distubing and pornographic horror and survival media that is getting created these days that has basically dropped the pretense of being about entertainment, and truly we become the stories we keep telling.

Pagans eat it up, but willingly and religiously taking on the role of achetypal, unredeemable evil forms is not particularly prudent; but hey it's not my thing.

Welcome!

I was wondering if there was any connection between Diogenes of Oinoanda believing we ought to depict the Gods as smiling, with the Archaic Smile.

I vaguely remember reading some scholarship that perhaps Epicurean Philosophy was a kind of pre-Socratic resurgence though I admit that I am not sure where I picked up that idea, and I remember reading in Bernard Frischer's book The Sculpted Word where Fischer paints a picture of Epicurean Philosophy not concerned with returning the world to some bygone Golden Age, but living in the present as if one were in the past Golden Age. I admit to not knowing much about the greater expanses of Greek history, but was curious if a more learned scholar here could speak to this sort of idea and if the idea of smiling statuary for Diogenes has anything to do with some kind of aesthetic sign from Greece in the Archaic age.

Thanks for any insights or commentary.

Anti-Natalism is largely irrelevant to me as I have children. As a Dad who tries and has tried to share the tasks of raising children and with a partner who thinks outside of the cultural box on the solutions to problems of contemporary motherhood, I honestly fail to see many downsides to children as having children has not hindered any area of my life. It has only greatly enhanced it by making the task of philosophy even more urgent and palpable, as well as, allowing me to experience a whole variety of pleasures of the mind and pleasant emotions that I would have otherwise never known.

I suppose there are all sorts of maladies a child my be physically or mentally afflicted with, or the child may not live long or not be set upon by great violence due to environmental or social factors like conflict and disease to not reach an age of understanding for there to have been any form of consolation. One might make a resoundingly anti-natalist argument given the chances of this, though you never quite know what Nature informs the body of unless one were in that situation. But if our pleasant disposition is not overly reliant on notions of anyone and everyone reaching some sort of perfected state, the achievement of all of ones potential and the heights of human attainment, or necessarily having to persist for any particularly long period of time in order for any one life to be worth living; or to come at it from a different direction - to otherwise conquer the fear of the death of others, then you can seek to offer a child the most joyful of times now and not delay in the instruction in right philosophy, while still reasonably preparing a future for the child like one would their own life given their own uncertain fate. Principal Doctrine 19 helps alleviate that sort of fear and provides consolatory salvation, and we should expect nothing less in a sober pursuit of philosophy than to be sobered now and again by correct reasoning.

Thank you so much, Kalosyni and Cassius!

I believe it shall be a very good day.

Thank you very much for this discussion on an extremely important issue in Epicurean Philosophy, and another well elucidated debate within this episode.

Maybe this belongs more in a highly practical, or religious practice area of the forum; but I use this list a friend of mine but together, to realize the "why not hundreds of emotional states?" and drill back down to whats standing in the way of the ataraxic, unmixed, unalloyed Pleasure of which I feel like katastematic pleasure, as a concept, is avoiding in the issue of "neutrality" in emotion.

I bring in some degree of taxonomy using the breath of language, like in this chart, to name and resolve the personal, desire-based reasons and social reasons for such seemingly complex feelings and resolutions to those feelings. Is feeling 'restless' bodily and/or categorically different than feeling "contemptous"? If we can categorize them as pains, then perhaps the taxonomy can help us understand what to do about the mental displeasure to make moves to alleviate it.

I ultimately come down on that side that Doctrinally, it makes more sense to just consider the Pleasure of the katastematic state, and the kenetic pleasures that help us tend to our reasonable human needs, set against the various psychic and more apparant physical Pains; makes a great deal of sense from a constructive, rather than other deconstructive, dialectical or highly analytical and divorced from the body, philosophical perspectives. The pleasurability brought about by clearing the mind and setting the Epicurean student on the reasonable approach to life using the Doctrine and other sources of Epicurean philosophy, ought to be, philosophically and teleologically, a distinct state of affairs from the myriad of ideas one could bring to the table about Pleasure and Pain and pathos in general.

A.I. has some deep "intelligence" problems when it literally cited my own stranger, exploratory comment concerning Epicurean prolepsis on this forum back to me... I wouldn't trust what I have to say on such subjects, but I would trust whatever is going on with this Google search A.I. even less.

I'm generally trying to "revolt" against having to use the internet for organizing events and projects. The lack of eventbrite sign-ups, and QR codes and other ways for people to gain rapid access to information or for things to be neatly arranged. If I weren't so terrible with handwriting and drawing, I would make my fliers by hand; but I should work on doing things with pen and pencil more from now on where I can. Life is going to just be messier for me outside of my work life and I have the luxury right now with my current projects to not need mass appeal or for very many people to be able to connect with what I want to get up to.

I also wonder, per Martin 's excellent comment, how and in what way a physicist or anyone achieving something grand intellectually, experiences pleasure. I have had obviously much lesser experiences of pride and fame and more distinct understanding of what I did as not particularly laudable; but I personally dismissed most of that mild 'lauding' of "achievement" unless it came from specific people I actually yearned for other deeper emotional needs from. An attaboy coming from a stranger or an acquaintance or even Friend means less to me than that coming from the family member I always wanted to feel connected to or wanted approval from.

Can we truly recommend pleasures of "self-actualizing" or "achievement" if we do not have some model such as Maslow's Hierachy of Needs, where lower levels of needs are already deeply felt and secured? I generally tend to associate the sentiments towards even mild fame and notoriety with a distinctly lesser quality than more "basely" human needs and desires; like a well prepared meal, perhaps even given the time to be foraged, grown or hunted, with the best of Friendly company. And I think that bears out well in Epicurean thought and other ancient "hedonic" thought like in Yang Chu who speaks ill even of grand funerary rites.

Excellent thread.

I just wanted to comment on another aspect of what I think is meant by the Nature of "contemplation" "meditation" and so forth.

Lucretius' Ode to Epicurus in Book 1, gives me a stark reminder of how the ancients thought about the Nature of mind and allowing ones mind to wander or imagine in ones 'mind's eye', at least in dramatic form.

Quote

"When human life to view lay foully prostrate upon earth crushed down under the weight of religion, who showed her head from the quarters of heaven with hideous aspect lowering upon mortals, a man of Greece ventured first to lift up his mortal eyes to her face and first to withstand her to her face.

Him neither story of gods nor thunderbolts nor heaven with threatening roar could quell: they only chafed the more the eager courage of his soul, filling him with desire to be the first to burst the fast bars of nature’s portals.

Therefore the living force of his soul gained the day: on he passed far beyond the flaming walls of the world and traversed throughout in mind and spirit the immeasurable universe; whence he returns a conqueror to tell us what can, what cannot come into being; in short on what principle each thing has its powers defined, its deep-set boundary mark.

Therefore religion is put underfoot and trampled upon in turn; us his victory brings level with heaven." - Lucretius, De Rereum Natura, Book 1 62-78

So I think about Epicurus' physics and his view of infinite space and time, and infinite atoms and void, as something in which we can 'contemplate/meditate' on when fears about the Gods, primal terror at enormous thoughts or fears about humans overwhelm us. The physics may or may not be 'true' when we consider physics as we know them today, but the whole view of the universe to Epicurus is calming - at least I've found as an object of contemplation - and helps induce the loss of overwhelming fears associated with letting ones imagination run off billions of light years away or into fictive ideas about Gods or other unseeable things ready to strike at us.

I suppose in this way the physics are still immensely useful as, for the contemporary moment, we do not have a scientific view or a scientific cultural discourse that also does not incessantly hound us with thoughts of "other dimensions" or "simulations" that could leave us disconcerted and uneasy. Science isn't supposed to take into account the health of the soul when off discovering or theorizing in the same way Ancient Philosophical systems needed to more or less wrap everything up nice and tidy as to be a system of psychological health or attainment.

I would also submit that Emily Austin's is indeed the best intro book. I recommend and give away copies to friends and amiable family as often as I pique interest in it. But you, good stranger, have the advantage as you have found the community, and I have found the Epicurean community forums and content to be of utmost importance not just in understanding the philosophy, but in thinking with the canon, or "doing" the philosophy. As well as, invaluable minutae of ancient contexts combing through the extant material. The write ups, discussions, and a knowledgable community to engage with your own items of inquiry, and heck, even some of the meme content around here are really good at getting a more organic picture from many more types of discourse and presentation to engage with to apprehend Epicurean Philosophy well enough to glean the fruits during your stay in the Epicurean Garden.

I have similarly more or less dabbled in pagan milieu and practices, rejected the kind of ceaseless 'deconstruction' of some atheist culture into nihilism, absurdism and so forth, and by happy accident discovered the richness and efficacy of Epicurean philosophy and the friendliness of Epicurean community.

Welcome, welcome, welcome!

In the Moral Letters to Lucilius, which is a Stoic writing, they quote our Metrodorus of Lampsacus directly:

"There is certain pleasure akin to saddness."

I'll try to give some commentary

Given the rest of the context of the letter, he seems to be talking about the loss of a loved one to death; and the author appears very indignant with Metrodorus' claim about finding pleasure in saddness, especially of the death of a loved one.

I'm not sure we know Metrodorus' full context in uttering this, but I do not doubt that there can be a mixing of pleasure and saddness in other pains as well as in the death of a loved one, when one's view of death is not colored by a sense of injustice at the nature of death itself rather than the purview of other humans. Vatican Saying 31, for me at least, conjures up this image of life and death that is inherently precarious and that we can do what we can within reason, but we cannot stop death should it descend on us.

"It is possible to provide security against other afflictions, but as far as death is concerned, we men all live in a city without walls" - VC 31

The Stoic writer of this Letter to Lucilius conjures up the image of one's own child on the funeral pyre, which to me is a form of polemic and pressing Metrodorus's claim to a breaking point. He also mentions the notion that Epicureans (perhaps?) may forget their loved ones and go about there lives never thinking of the dead, which doesn't appear to be accurate from the quotes elsewhere in this thread. I don't think Metrodorus' observation breaks though. I have felt a mixing of pain and pleasure in deaths of loved ones when I allowed myself to feel anything I was going to feel about their death without listening to appeals from virtue from inner judgements or caring about outer judgements. I also firmly believe that in embodying the Epicurean mindset (or the closest we may yet get to it), the shared experience of living pleasant experiences; and the cultivating of deeply pleasant relationships with others; and the further contemplation of them in our memories; that in these and other ways pleasure itself is the teleological goal of life. This teleological guide and goal of Pleasure is indeed salvific in that it sooths the pains of life, not by avoiding the realities of death; but in the earnestness with which we live and die.

I sometimes like to use some strange phrasings for fun, and to a lesser extent, to demonstrate in some way I didn't use any A.I. to write.

Yes, I see Epicurus' last day as a preparation for death. An acceptance but relishing in the memories of close friendships, relaying his affection for those present and thinking fondly of the future lives of some of the children of the garden he would be securing with his will. I too could see Vatican saying 47 (I love that one) being an insight into the ancient Epicureans' attitude towards dying.

Another quote that capitvated me in my early reading of Epicurus and still does; is in the letter to Menoceus:

"The art of living well, and dying well are one."

Brings me so much joy hearing this episode. I feel like the ataraxic mind guards against the perils and pains of life, but I think Epicurus redeems the somewhat listless ataraxic state by arguing that emotions are there to guide us towards a sagely life where pleasure and the pleasant life is the teleological goal of life. Emotions are likely not overwhelming to the ataraxic mind, but with the humanizing Epicurean philosophy create that acceptance of nature yet still feeling deep connection to the self and others. If even a wise and intelligent person experiences despair, then that simply means that their arrangement of social and perhaps material reality is not pleasant or comporting to ideal hedonic or Epicurean meleta or advice. It makes so much sense to me at least that the highest expression of a wise life is in community with like minds and alike in their piety, and that even a wise soul can be stuck in social situation; or worse, that will cause them to be unassuagedly disturbed.

The "meaning crisis" for me, has always been a bit of an affront to basic human activity that is so obvious once one embraces natural human relationships. The Epicurean Canon: my sensations, my prolepsis, my emotions; indicates to me all the meaning I could ever want or need to navigate life "meaningfully"; proffering all manner of solution to social and material disturbances. Living pleasantly with friends, returning to an ataraxic mind and katastematic and kenetic pleasure renders life deeply enjoyable and well worth living onward. When I feel like cultivating and tending to the garden of the inner life of the soul and outwardly with friends and family isn't enough, then I choose to pursue something in the public sphere that I reason is good for the "polis", or renders reciprocal justice to kind souls who have helped me and people I care about, or benefit events for organizations that legitmately do good work and calming restless souls who simply have not pursued the Doctrine and Philosophy of Epicurus. I try to make my public workings comport to two or more of those criteria. I'm not sure what else anyone could get up to beyond directly taking the reigns of power in politics or business.

Welcome, DistantLaughter!

Love the user name, btw and I hope you find some degree of comraderie here. There are lots of really nice, thoughtful and intelligent folks here.

Being a 39 year old as well that has put away some beers in his time, I can't blame a guy living through a couple of World Wars for having some drink I suppose. I've certainly stressed over far less in my life.

I always considered that Laertius quote to be deeply instructive and very relevant to my apparently unreasonable disdain for story-telling, lyrics and poetry and so forth. I can't understate the power images and words had over my state of mind before I built up many barriers against it, largely through what it is I've been doing internally with Epicurean Philosophy. Also I think it was Philodemus, I think in On Poetry who wrote that the words and meaning of poetry or song being the real purveyor of beauty or morality within a work of art, and that sentiment I couldn't agree more with. The main issue is some unusual malady in my Soul where there is psychological confusion between the subject of the artist and my Self that distrubs me intensely. So I like extremely specific art or artists, and in my many ways people in general, that I have thoroughly vetted the message of their art and allow into my life to "program" me in hedonic regimen or whom I will trust with abidding Friendship, as I deem them benevolent.