Posts by Raphael Raul

Good evening, Cassius. I hope you had a good dinner.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post.
I am clarifying this statement you wrote in your post.

"But the real heart of the question is the role of Pleasure vs reason as the guide. I gather you're concerned that it is a problem to hold reason to be a "tool" for happiness, rather than a guide toward happiness."

I just wanted to clarify that
...I hold that the goal of life is Pleasure, but the guide of life is "Reason."
I hold that reason is the tool that guides the Pleasure that we are experiencing, not the other way around.

For example, pleasures come, while eating or drinking, let's say, and while one eats and drinks, one may desire to eat and drink past a reasonable limit. Thus, a reasonable person employs "reason" to decide, "No, I will stop eating and drinking now, because if I continue, I will get drunk and have indigestion later.
So yes, we feel Pleasure, and those pleasures can be good or bad if we do not use reason to decide how far or how much Pleasure we should have.

However, the main argument concerns the almost total subject view that all members held at last Sunday's discussion. The idea that all is subjective and that there is no objectivity possible in making societal valuations.

I am looking forward to tomorrow's Sunday Epicurean discussion.
It is one of the highlights of my Sunday!!!
As well as playing chess with Tau Phi after the discussion.

Good night...

Again, it was a fascinating and even passionate discussion last Sunday on the topic of "Comparing The Pleasure of A Great Physicist Making A Discovery To the Pleasure of a Lion Eating an Antelope or Lamb." Some people have stated in the threads and the discussion that this topic has already been argued and resolved. This debate is far from being resolved, especially the argument that I am presenting here, which will never be definitively determined and will always be debated in different times and epochs, as it has been throughout history, since the ancient Greeks in the Agora of Athens. My final thoughts on this topic will likely be highly controversial for some and even spark a firestorm of debate, but debate is a good thing.

For me, the goal of life is Pleasure, but the guide of life is "Reason." Prudence, as Epicurus stated, is even more important than philosophy." Why is that? It is because prudence is the use of Reason to sort out what is best for one. One can live well without having read any philosophy if they have Prudence. If they are Reasonable people, they can sort out among the many choices what is beneficial for their life. I have personally met illiterate country folk with "common sense" as they call it, who have used Prudence (reason) to navigate skillfully through life, and have known highly educated individuals who have made continuous bad choices. It seems that higher education and academic philosophy did not help them; maybe Prudence would have.

My point here is that with reason we make personal choices, but as a society, "we use reason collectively to decide what is more valuable than other things." Therefore, we make collective "valuations" that may deem one activity "higher" in nature than another, or using another term, "worthier of our time and energy", and seek as a society to promote those worthier activities that we collectively decide are more beneficial to it, such as the study of history, science, philosophy, and the arts over playing pinball, throwing darts in pubs, or watching sitcoms all night. Yes, some individuals have no interest or receive Pleasure from reading history, studying science and philosophy, or composing music and creating paintings. Their pleasures are of the ones mentioned above, and I respect their interests and their pleasures. I also enjoy, in my youth, at times, playing pinball, darts in bars, and watching a sitcom or two. I am dating myself here, but I still enjoy viewing, once in a while, the 1950s sitcom "The HoneyMooners", for relaxation and laughter. ...Laughter is good; it oxygenates the brain.

As understood, in Epicurean philosophy, there are no objectively higher activities judged collectively as superior, independent of individual experience. Epicurus held that all value—including the value of activities—is grounded in the individual's own feelings of pleasure and pain, not in an external or collective hierarchy. So, this is my criticism of what we know of Epicurean philosophy, as scholars estimate that less than 1% of Epicurus' total written works have survived. And it is possible that on the other 99% of the writings that we do not have, he may have refined this view.

However, I am not going to fall into the pit of subjectivism and relativism that leads to sophistry by saying that playing pinball, darts in bars, and watching sitcoms all night, though pleasurable, are all equally valuable as reading history, studying science and philosophy, or appreciating art, such as painting, music, and poetry, and all the other intellectual and artistic activities. This subjective vs objective argument is an old debate dating back around 2,300 years to ancient Greece between Socrates and the Sophists. Plato's dialogue that best captures the problem of subjectivism versus objective truths is the "Republic", especially in Books V–VII, where Socrates contrasts the world of changing opinions and appearances (doxa/subjectivism) with the world of immutable, objective knowledge (episteme) accessed through reason.

Ironically, Epicurus develops a whole philosophical system using proto-scientific ideas that are objectively outside of the larger society's views or understanding. Yet, Epicureans hold that objective valuations cannot be made is a contradiction. Epicurus developed theories of atoms and void, first proposed by Democritus, which were not observable with instruments in his time. These are attempts at objective assertions, scientific assertions, of the world. However, Epicureans maintain that all is subjective, as I was made aware of during our discussion, and objective valuations cannot be made. What Epicureans hold is in contradiction to what Epicurus actually did, which was to attempt to arrive at ideas that he developed through objective reasoning.

Finally, as Socrates warned, subjectivism can lead to social confusion and chaos. In the West, we are experiencing the consequences of overemphasizing subjectivism and relativism, due to many factors, which have led to confusion and doubt about what a man and a woman are, and that one can become the other by just "identifying" with it (subjectivism), and ignoring what science knows about DNA. Our Western heritage and its values have been slowly evaporating. Values that originated in ancient Greece, such as the use of reason and the development of a non-supernatural view of the world and universe, led to philosophy and science. Suppose we, as a society, do not return to evaluating and recognizing the worth of Western Civilization's Values, especially that of reason and science; in that case, we will face its ultimate disappearance as other, more passionate, radical, belief-based societies demographically and politically overtake it, as is presently happening in Europe today, with dire consequences for it.

Finally, for me, to restate...the goal of life is Pleasure, but the guide of life is "Reason." Prudence, as Epicurus stated, is even more important than philosophy." For it gives us the ability to guide us to good pleasures. However, the present Epicurean understanding in my mind is limited due to the paucity of Epicurus' own writings, which are considered only 1% of what he wrote. And there seems to be a contradiction between what he attempted to do "objectively" and thus what Epicureans believe, as only "Subjectivity" is possible. Therefore, in my humble opinion, Epicureanism, as understood by Epicureans in our discussion last Sunday, is lacking in evaluating the truly worthy values and activities, such as Albert Einstein's development of the Theory of Relativity, Beethoven's symphonies, and Leonardo Da Vinci's paintings, from what appear to me to be mere distractions, such as darts in bars, pinball, and binging on sitcoms all day.

Cassius, yes, it was a fascinating, passionate discussion last Sunday on Comparing The Pleasure of A Great Physicist Making A Discovery To the Pleasure of a Lion Eating an Antelope. ...Today I have been preparing for my two art workshops, which are filled to the brim with students. Starting Friday, after completing some errands & organizing my studio, I hope to have some time to write down some thoughts on the discussion and post them here. I will see you Sunday at 12:30 pm for the Epicurean Friends Zoom meeting.

Comparing The Pleasure of A Great Physicist Making A Discovery To The Pleasure of A Lion Eating An Antelope.

I would like to start by addressing Tau Phi's assertion that "The pleasure of one cannot be evaluated as "greater" than the pleasure of another." I agree with this claim from a subjective perspective, because the lion is sustaining itself and having the pleasure of his bloody, fleshy meal, and is unaware of the profound joy that Albert Einstein experiences when discovering new scientific truths. Similarly, we, as humans, are unable to fathom the extraordinary pleasures that the gods, as Epicurus states, experience in their blissful existence.

From a third-party perspective—say, that of philosophers like Epicurus, Aristotle, or Plato and from our own experience—we could assert that Einstein's intellectual pleasure in making his groundbreaking discoveries represents a higher form of enjoyment compared to the more instinctual pleasure that a lion derives from devouring the antelope.

Personally, as someone who enjoys hearty meals like a thick porterhouse steak with potatoes and gravy, now and then, I can appreciate the immense satisfaction the lion finds in its bloody, fleashy feast. While all pleasures are inherently good, I believe that the higher pleasures of the mind—such as tranquility, intellectual fulfillment, and artistic creativity—hold greater value to me than bodily or material pleasures, which by the way, should not be dismissed as they are fundamental to our physical survival and mental, creative activities.

After enjoying my steak, I often take a walk on a lovely summer evening, allowing my meal to settle. However, just twenty minutes into my walk, my thoughts often drift to a painting I am working on; I find myself engaged in mentally exploring its technical challenges, such as perspective, tonal structure, artistic anatomy, etc., and its artistic application. This shift signifies a transition from a fleeting, material pleasure to a more enduring mental satisfaction. Again, I do not disavow the importance of our physical and material appetites, as many religious and philosophical systems have perpetrated historically on mankind. On the contrary, I enjoy them wholeheartedly when they arrive.

In my experience though, the enjoyment of physical pleasures tends to be short-lived, prompting me to seek out higher mental pleasures instead, such as reading history, philosophy, making music and art. At this very moment, as I write this post, I am immersed in the kind of intellectual engagement that Epicurus advocated nearly 2,300 years ago, a perspective echoed by other great thinkers throughout history.

Principal Doctrine, 20

"The body receives as unlimited time the pleasure's limit; but the mind, grasping the reasons and causes of this pleasure and removing all fears and desires and superstitions, receives as unlimited time, both the pleasure's limit and the tranquility which comes from rational thought."

I quote here Kochiekoch: "My take on the debate on the thread here is that pleasure is pleasure and the two are of equal value in the moment, but the scientist with his great discovery has the greatest pleasure over time. He gets to enjoy the accolade's as his discovery is confirmed and also gets pleasure from contemplating his discovery. He can use it as well as a springboard for future discoveries and pleasures from that. All consistent with the Epicurean perspective of mental pleasures being superior because they can be enjoyed in the present, past and future."

I want to reaffirm my agreement with Tau Phi's statement: "The pleasure of one cannot be considered 'greater' than the pleasure of another." However, this statement is valid only from the subjective viewpoints of the Lion and Albert Einstein. From a third-party perspective, it is controversial, if not entirely an untenable assertion, particularly among those who appreciate the pleasures of intellectual, artistic thought, and creation, and who have reflected on their value. In that case, Albert Einstein's pleasure in his scientific discovery represents a longer-lasting mental pleasure, one that can produce further mental pleasures, as it did for Einstein throughout his life, till his death.

...Oh, and by the way...I am having sizzling, juicy pork chops with salad for dinner tonight!

In last Sunday's discussion, I posed a question in response to Tau Phi's statement, which is paraphrased here on the site as "That the pleasure of the one might be evaluated as 'greater' than the pleasure of the other. Tau Phi may want to respond, whether this wording of his statement is correct or not. ...Moving on, the question I posed to Tau Phi, and which now I repose and have the opportunity here to give it more lively detail, is the following: ..."Imagine a lion has just killed an antelope and he has settled down to have and enjoy his delicious, bloody, and fleshy meal. And imagine Albert Einstein, the great physicist, having just discovered in the lonely dark of his bedroom, using applied differential geometry, that he had just mathematically described the curvature of space-time. And knowing that this discovery was a revolution in physics, upending two centuries of Newtonian Mechanics."...So, which is the greater pleasure, or more precisely, the 'higher pleasure, that of the lion or that of Albert Einstein?
Or if this kind of valuation is even possible concerning personal pleasures? ...Does Epicureanism not have a view on this?

Yes, Cassius, I will comment by Saturday evening or Sunday morning, as I am in the midst of teaching my Wednesday and Thursday Art workshop, which involves a total of 24 students and their artworks to attend to, plus slide lectures....
The discussions that I have scanned so far are fascinating.
I will start reading them in depth after today's classes and then comment.

I have been reading and recommend "On Epicurus" by Norman Lillegard which clearly breaks down all the fundamentals of Epicurean philosophy. And have been reading "The Pocket Epicurean" which is a short and well written guide to Epicurean ideas.

Thanks to everyone who attended the online meeting last night.
For me, it was wonderful to be in the presence of lovers of philosophy and particularly students of what I describe as the logical, practical, and pleasurable philosophy that a man named Epicurus remarkably developed more than 23 centuries ago, for us to guide our lives, to be pleasant and filled with the guiltless pleasures of the mind, and the body. ..Special thanks to Kalosyni for organizing the meeting and posing an interesting question for us to ponder.
....I would love to attend this Wednesday's study session, but I have an art class to instruct on Wednesday evenings.

Hello, members of Epicurean Freinds. My name is Raphael-Raúl, and I have been a member of Epicurean Friends for about a month now. I have been studying philosophy in general since I was about 19, sixty-something years ago. I have been reading Epicurean philosophy on my own, on and off, for about twenty years. After studying many philosophies over decades, I found that Epicurean philosophy was the one that most strongly resonated with my way of life as an artist, and how I have approached my life. Searching for freedom, especially freedom from the mob that is society in general, Independent self-sufficiency, the seeking of intellectual and artistic pleasure, and those of the body and heart, when not enslaving and disturbing, has been my approach to living. Epicurean philosophy, especially in the last two years through much reading, has again reaffirmed my instincts towards how I want and have lived my life. I seek a deeper understanding of this most logical, practical, and pleasurable way to live by discussing it with other Epicureans.

Hello, Kalosyni, and members of Epicurean Freinds. My name is Raphael-Raúl, and I have been a member of Epicurean Friends for about a month now. I have been studying philosophy in general since I was about 19 years of age, sixty-something years ago. I have been reading Epicurean philosophy on my own, on and off, for about twenty years. After studying many philosophies over decades, I found that Epicurean philosophy was the one that most strongly resonated with my way of life as an artist, and how I have approached my life. Searching for freedom, especially freedom from the mob that is society in general, Independent self-sufficiency, the seeking of intellectual and artistic pleasure, and those of the body and heart, when not enslaving and disturbing, has been my approach to living. Epicurean philosophy, especially in the last two years through much reading, has again reaffirmed my own instincts towards how I want and have lived my life. I seek a deeper understanding of this most logical, practical, and pleasurable way to live by discussing it with other Epicureans.
...I want to attend the first Monday meeting today, January 1st, 2024.
Please let me know how to attend. I assume I will receive a link by email for the Zoom meeting today at 8 pm.

Discussion on Ataraxia: freedom from anxiety.
...What is it?...How can we attain it in a world mad with chaos and conflict?

In a society filled with a barrage of messages through all sorts of media communicating all the world's strife,

conflicts and wars, how can we let go of this relentless confusion and find peace of mind and tranquility?

Thank you Pacatus, I am looking forward to sharing ideas about this brilliant practical life philosophy that I discovered resonated with how I already was living as an artist and human being on this earth.

Cassius, thanks for helping me with the technical glitch with password and logging in.
Hopefully, it will work the next time I log in. You never know with computers.

I also posted the philosophical art poster I created, with an Epicurean thought, I mentioned before.

Thank you, Don!

Thank you, Martin, and looking forward to it.

Thank you Kalosyni, I am looking forward to learning more,
and sharing what I have learned about applying Epicurean philosophy in my life.

Hello, I just joined the forum and look forward to sharing ideas about Epicurean philosophy,

which I have been studying on and off for years. I have much more to learn and absorb about this beautiful guide to living.
I am an artist and create, at times, philosophical art posters.

I'll post one on the site relevant to our times with an Epicurean thought.

Hello Epicurean friends, I just joined the Forum, and I am looking forward to sharing ideas

of this beautiful Epicurean philosophy that helps to guide our lives.

Raphael-Raúl