Not a problem, thanks for letting us know, I'll let Cassius know in case he hasn't seen this message yet.

reneliza Thank you for letting us know, and hope your schedule turns out favorable, as we look forward to meeting you

Hi Everyone,

Here are some important logistics for tonight's Zoom:

We will be admitting people into the Zoom meeting based on the following:

1) forum names we recognize from previous Zoom meetings

2) those who have registered from Eventbrite (people from Facebook or non-forum members)

3) or forum members who have "registered" by messaging Cassius beforehand with your intended Zoom name.

If you are a forum member you do not need to use Eventbrite, but please message Cassius beforehand with your Zoom name.

The Zoom link for the meeting is posted in our calendar:

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/calendar/event/1693/

Tonight we will begin with Principle Doctrine 1, if you are interested in reading various translations, check out Nate's compilation:

File

KURIAI DOXAI, a Compilation of Translations by Nathan H. Bartman (2021)

This compilation contains 150 years worth of English translations of the "Key Doctrines" of Epicurus.

Eikadistes

May 3, 2024 at 11:14 PM

Looking forward to seeing you tonight!

isychos, Thank you for letting us know

Hi Everyone,

Our new hour long Zoom event "Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom" is starting this Wednesday 8:30pm! Please let us know by responding in this thread or in a private message to either me or Cassius if you would like to attend.

We are calling it "Open Invitation" -- as we are also opening it up to folks on Facebook (using Eventbrite for registration for Facebook members).

This is what we will be doing:

Format:

(1) Welcome: We'll go "around the table" and let each participant identify themselves as they wish, hopefully including a reference to their background and level of interest in Epicurus.

(2) Thought For The Week: Each week we will take one of the Principal Doctrines (and when we finish those, proceed to the Vatican List of Sayings) and we will have someone read the saying followed by commentary by a couple of our regulars to set the stage for further discussion. We'll then open the floor to comments by other participants (using the "raise hand" method and/or the text chat to raise an issue). We'll continue that discussion for as long as it goes but plan to cut that off around the 40 minute mark.

(3) Special Event: At the forty-minute mark we will shift to the special focus of the week, and this week will be:

Living As An Epicurean in the Modern World - food/cooking, nature/gardening, movies/music, or other hobbies as these relate to creating pleasurable living.

(4) Closing Wrap-Up - The Program coordinators will thank those who have participated and make concluding comments about what has been discussed, and what we can expect for next week (each week will have a different focus, and how people can communicate and coordinate their study of Epicurean philosophy in the meantime.

So we carry on, and this quote from the "Epicurean Mission and Membership" which Cassius provide above:

Quote

...the Epicureans were not a community of evangelists or missionaries. The realization that the Epicureans had a strong aversion to the open propagation of philosophy also needs to be informing and pulling upon our understanding. This concern is probably best demonstrated by Epicurus’ frequent refrains on the crowd’s inability to respond correctly to philosophical truths, and his belief on the futility of trying to structure a message to appeal to a mass audience.

So we need to consider that what we have to offer for learning opportunities should be geared for people who seek us out. Yet it is a kind of "catch 22" because we need to tell people about it, since Epicureanism is not know the way it was back in ancient times.

So now in modern times we really do need to "be missionaries", otherwise nobody will even know what Epicureanism is.

I now see that Cassius wrote a long reply to the Wilson article, on FB, and here it is:

Quote

Catherine Wilson continues to be one of the better writers on Epicurus today. Who could disagree with the title of her article? Aside from her willingness to accept the church fathers and Plato as "greats" I agree there is a lot of good material in this. However I'd like to talk about these two paragraphs:

"Epicurus made it clear from the start that he did not advocate the direct pursuit of personal pleasure in the forms of gluttony, indiscriminate sex or overconsumption of intoxicating substances. This was foolish, as it ultimately produces pain. Real pleasure arises from judicious – though not overly fussy – “choice and avoidance”, and avoidance is as important as choice.

Epicurean ethics reduces to a few simple principles: avoid harming others and live so that others have no motive to harm you. Form agreements with them for mutual aid and protection. The greatest good for a human being, Epicurus thought, is friendship – pleasure in the presence of another individual, and the security of knowing that help will be given if ever it is needed."

My response:

(1) Epicurus did endorse the pursuit of food, sex, and other pleasures, but not (as she correctly observes) to the point of gluttony which ultimately produces more pain than pleasure. But to talk about "real pleasure" is something else: I would submit that Epicurus clearly says that "all pleasures are desirable" and there is really no such thing as a "false pleasure" --- if you want to talk about pleasures to be avoided, the point is that some pleasures produce more pain than pleasure in the end, when summed all together.

(2) I have even more concern about saying that "Epicurean Ethics reduces to a few simple principles" wherein those she lists a series of things in which pleasure is almost an afterthought. As she often does, Catherine Wilson is playing to current social norms and attempting to justify in modern terms. The goal of Epicurus is unwavering: pleasure for yourself and those who are your friends. Yes, a good way to do that is to live justly and honorably, but that is not the goal - the goal is the pleasure. Even less well stated is the statement that "the greatest good for a human being is 'friendship." Epicurus is very emphatic in defining the greatest good in philosophic terms as pleasure -- and Wilson is mixing the means and the ends in saying that he held the greatest good to be friendship. Epicurus clearly stated that of all the things that the wise man will seek in order to procure a life of pleasure, the greatest is friendship. That makes friendship, like virtue itself, a tool toward pleasure, and not the end in itself. Wilson is no doubt well aware of this, but not content to point out that Epicurus said that one would die for a friend, or be as hurt at the torture of a friend as when tortured himself, she mixes the end and the means so as to appeal to a wider audience.

Time for the reminder from Diogenes of Oinoanda, who perhaps one day will have shouted loud enough for even Ms. Wilson to hear:

Fr. 32

If, gentlemen, the point at issue between these people and us involved inquiry into «what is the means of happiness?» and they wanted to say «the virtues» (which would actually be true), it would be unnecessary to take any other step than to agree with them about this, without more ado. But since, as I say, the issue is not «what is the means of happiness?» but «what is happiness and what is the ultimate goal of our nature?», I say both now and always, shouting out loudly to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the end of the best mode of life, while the virtues, which are inopportunely messed about by these people (being transferred from the place of the means to that of the end), are in no way an end, but the means to the end. Let us therefore now state that this is true, making it our starting-point.

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Here is a fairly recent quick easy read, by Catherine Wilson. Which I noticed was posted on the FB group. It does a good job of highlighting key aspects, and very much recommend this if you haven't already read it. The points contained would be very good to share with those who are new to Epicureanism, and also to keep in mind as to why we "Keep Calm, and Carry On" with Epicureanism.

Quote from Don

My impression was that Stoicism as a research focus is probably more "popular" within academic research whereas Epicurean studies are more niche.

Possibly due to the lack of Epicurean source material, would guess.

Quote from Don

He also seems to have gone down an Epictetus/Stoic track after the initial interest in Epicureanism.

This is important to note, and to ask the question as to why this might have happened -- and could happen for anyone -- sort of a theoretical exploration as to why might someone study Epicureanism, but then later choose focus on Stoicism or modern stoicism.

Here are some reasons that come to me:

1) The given individual's lifestyle is not set up to be supportive or conducive to enjoyment in life, due to a busy or stressful schedule and/or a lack of friends to do enjoyable activities with.

2) The given individual's life situation is very unpleasant, making it difficult to relax and enjoy life -- a solitary lifestyle, difficult illness, mental illness, or poverty.

3) The given individual ideologically identifies more closely with "struggle" or self-advancement -- long hard hours of work to achieve recognition or fame -- in an attempt to improve one's financial well-being and/or to distract from # 1 and # 2 above.

Any other reasons not listed?

I myself feel that reason # 1 above applies to me -- though I will try to stick with Epicureanism for a little while longer.

This article covers a lot of background, here an interesting excerpt:

Quote

Yet it is not just the Epicurean aspiration for privacy that has led some to posit their exclusivist nature, but also the school’s communal nature. When the idea of the Epicurean desire for a quiet garden retreat is attached to their communal living it seems, to some, that the Garden must have been a self*sustaining, reclusive society. Although again we must caution ourselves by noting that we are left with surprisingly few primary sources from which to examine whether such an interplay or dynamic existed. Nor can we tell how such a format would define their understanding of those found outside of the Garden. Most comments referencing their communal life are allusions; such as Epicurus’ statement that: ‘the agreeable life [is] in each other’s society,’6 or when he references the insiders of the group as belonging to ‘the household.’7
Ancient commentators and historians of the Epicurean movement are equally laconic in their recording of the school’s communal nature. Diogenes Laertius, for example, remarked that: ‘friends indeed came to [Epicurus] from all parts and lived with him in his garden,’8

and in a subsequent statement he relayed for his readers the information that the members of the Garden enjoyed ‘the common life.’9 One of the only notable insights that we have received is that their goods were held individually, and were not communally shared*10 something that would have separated them from other communal philosophical groups such as the Pythagoreans, or, at least the portrayal of, Philo’s Therapeutae.11

I find the expressive painting and drawing of Art Nouveau to be very pleasureable and so wanted to start a thread on it in which anyone can post their favorites.

From Wikipedia, an excerpt from the overview:

"It was often inspired by natural forms such as the sinuous curves of plants and flowers."

Quote

Art Nouveau (/ˌɑːrt nuːˈvoʊ, ˌɑːr/; French: [aʁ nuvo]) is an international style of art, architecture, and applied art, especially the decorative arts, known in different languages by different names: Jugendstil in German, Stile Liberty in Italian, Modernisme català in Catalan, etc. In English it is also known as the Modern Style. The style was most popular between 1890 and 1910 during the Belle Époque period that ended with the start of World War I in 1914.^[1] It was a reaction against the academic art, eclecticism and historicism of 19th century architecture and decoration. It was often inspired by natural forms such as the sinuous curves of plants and flowers.^[2] Other characteristics of Art Nouveau were a sense of dynamism and movement, often given by asymmetry or whiplash lines, and the use of modern materials, particularly iron, glass, ceramics and later concrete, to create unusual forms and larger open spaces.^[3]

Also, I happened on this video which is quite magical and wanted to share, from the Savannah Botanical Gardens website:

Watch the "Art Nouveau" video:

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam [excerpt]

Edward Fitzgerald

1

Wake! For the Sun, who scattered into flight

The Stars before him from the Field of Night,

Drives Night along with them from Heav'n and strikes

The Sultán's Turret with a Shaft of Light.

2

Before the phantom of False morning died,

Methought a Voice within the Tavern cried,

"When all the Temple is prepared within,

Why nods the drowsy Worshiper outside?"

3

And, as the Cock crew, those who stood before

The Tavern shouted--"Open, then, the Door!

You know how little while we have to stay,

And, once departed, may return no more."

12

A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,

A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread--and Thou

Beside me singing in the Wilderness

Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!

13

Some for the Glories of This World; and some

Sigh for the Prophet's Paradise to come;

Ah, take the Cash, and let the Credit go,

Nor heed the rumble of a distant Drum!

14

Look to the blowing Rose about us--"Lo,

Laughing," she says, "into the world I blow,

At once the silken tassel of my Purse

Tear, and its Treasure on the Garden throw."

15

And those who husbanded the Golden Grain,

And those who flung it to the winds like Rain,

Alike to no such aureate Earth are turned

As, buried once, Men want dug up again.

19

I sometimes think that never blows so red

The Rose as where some buried Caesar bled;

That every Hyacinth the Garden wears

Dropped in her Lap from some once lovely Head.

20

And this reviving Herb whose tender Green

Fledges the River-Lip on which we lean--

Ah, lean upon it lightly! for who knows

From what once lovely Lip it springs unseen!

21

Ah, my Belovéd, fill the Cup that clears

Today of past Regrets and future Fears:

Tomorrow!--Why, Tomorrow I may be

Myself with Yesterday's Sev'n thousand Years.

22

For some we loved, the loveliest and the best

That from his Vintage rolling Time hath pressed,

Have drunk their Cup a Round or two before,

And one by one crept silently to rest.

23

And we, that now make merry in the Room

They left, and Summer dresses in new bloom,

Ourselves must we beneath the Couch of Earth

Descend--ourselves to make a Couch--for whom?

24

Ah, make the most of what we yet may spend,

Before we too into the Dust descend;

Dust into Dust, and under Dust to lie,

Sans Wine, sans Song, sans Singer, and--sans End!

71

The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,

Moves on; nor all your Piety nor Wit

Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,

Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

72

And that inverted Bowl they call the Sky,

Whereunder crawling cooped we live and die,

Lift not your hands to It for help--for It

As impotently moves as you or I.

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam [excerpt] by Edward Fitzgerald - Poems | poets.org

My new avatar is Omar Khayyam, painting by Adelaide Hanscom (c. 1910).

The following is from Wikipedia:

"FitzGerald emphasized the religious skepticism he found in Omar Khayyam.^[10] In his preface to the Rubáiyát, he describes Omar's philosophy as Epicurean and claims that Omar was "hated and dreaded by the Sufis,..."

Quote

The extreme popularity of FitzGerald's work led to a prolonged debate on the correct interpretation of the philosophy behind the poems. FitzGerald emphasized the religious skepticism he found in Omar Khayyam.^[10] In his preface to the Rubáiyát, he describes Omar's philosophy as Epicurean and claims that Omar was "hated and dreaded by the Sufis, whose practice he ridiculed and whose faith amounts to little more than his own when stripped of the Mysticism and formal recognition of Islamism under which Omar would not hide".^[11] Richard Nelson Frye also emphasizes that Khayyam was despised by a number of prominent contemporary Sufis. These include figures such as Shams Tabrizi, Najm al-Din Daya, Al-Ghazali, and Attar, who "viewed Khayyam not as a fellow-mystic, but a free-thinking scientist".^{[7]: 663–664} The skeptic interpretation is supported by the medieval historian Al-Qifti (ca. 1172–1248), who in his The History of Learned Men reports that Omar's poems were only outwardly in the Sufi style but were written with an anti-religious agenda. He also mentions that Khayyam was indicted for impiety and went on a pilgrimage to avoid punishment.^[12]

It takes a balance. I might have already posted this before, but this is very good in that it shows that happiness is both short term and long term -- "the riddle of experience vs. memory".

Quote

“We live and experience many moments, but most of them are not preserved,” Kahneman said. “They are lost forever. Our memory collects certain parts of what happened to us and processes them into a story. We make most of our decisions based on the story told by our memory.

Read the article

Watch a Ted talk:

This article from the above website looks good: dealing with stress.

omg -- I just found this very interesting website:

“Dear Venus”: Praying to an Ancient Goddess at the Getty Villa

21st-century prayers to an ancient goddess.

blogs.getty.edu

Quote

For, indeed, it were better to follow the myths about the gods than to become a slave to the destiny of the natural philosophers: for the former suggests a hope of placating the gods by worship, whereas the latter involves a necessity which knows no placation.

This seems to point toward the retaining of hope that prayer (or sacrifices to the gods) would be effective, rather than believing in a destiny which cannot be changed.

So perhaps I should pray to Aphrodite? -- lol

Quote from Cassius

PD27. Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.

Yes! And then also this Vatican saying:

34. The use of friends is not that they are useful, but that we can trust in their usefulness.

So then I take this as meaning to have friends in which we can rely on. And of course friends whom I enjoy being around and spending time with. And it takes time and effort to nurture these kinds of friendships.

Moving away from the REBT (of this thread) -- this morning I remembered being a kid and in 2nd or 3rd grade, a woman came into our classroom to have us do sing-alongs of various songs to her guitar accompaniment.

This was one song:

lyrics: "Hush Little Baby"

or listen:

Researching this I see that it was a folk song lullaby orginating from Virginia/North Carolina. And the idea is that there is always something else in which to find enjoyment, though this is rather materialistic in that it is relying on material objects.

As adults there is no Papa to take care of us anymore, nor is there a "Papa in the sky" to whom we pray. So it is up to us to do what we need to do. And sometimes first the pain before we can get to the pleasure, as Cassius wrote in another thread:

**"Because Epicurus might well listen to a person's story and their particular set of problems and prescribe something that leads first to "Pain" before only later leading to "Pleasure."**

And it comes to me, I wonder what might we say from a wise Epicurean point of view -- sort of a grown-up lullaby. What kind of words would we sing to ourselves when things seem difficult? This is something I will ponder, and perhaps write a song

Quote from Cassius

In my view, Epicurean views need to be thought of first as a "philosophy" of life - a world view. Yes Epicurean philosophy is practical, and yes it will lead in many practical directions, but Epicurean philosophy is not first and foremost a "therapy" as modern Stoicism has become.

I think a kind of "therapy" can come out of a worldview -- which for Epicureanism is enjoyment of life and friendships which support the enjoyment of life.

And this is something that I want to blog and post about in the future - as I feel there are many therapuetic aspects within Epicureanism.

Especially this link is good, lots of good points of "therapeutic" value:

Post

RE: A Post At Facebook Relevant to Activism And Living As An Epicurean

[…]

I think sometimes we might get caught up in the notion of philosophy involving only mental exercise: study and discussion, thoughts on how to apply a hedonic calculus (or a "virtue calculus" for the Stoics), mind-focused meditation practices (and practices to "condition the mind," as Nate says), etc. The physical comes up more in terms of food and drink, sometimes sex, maybe taking a walk in nature.

But physical exercise can be free (unconditioned) in practice -- and as a practice. Socrates…

Pacatus

May 2, 2022 at 1:48 PM