Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Root304

We are taking it more from a sense of play and community, and trying to be inclusive of what expression our Friends want to bring to the occassion. Our "magic" consisted of writing an intention on a bay leaf and tossing it in the fire.

Okay thank you for clarifying, because when I saw your post # 36 above end with the word "religion" then I got a bit of a tense feeling. So now I understand a little better and sounds like it is a creation of psychological symbolism used as a tool for self-exploration and self-knowledge.

And also I will again remember to consider how everyone has their unique and individual way of moving toward an enjoyable and pleasurable life.

Quote from Root304

...lots of fun reciting some words, building a fire, doing some simple witchery and leaving offerings and libations out. ....So I'm going to build a festival calendar around Eikas, intermixed with Solstices and Equinoxes, and draw from folklore traditions and what other things might interest my community of Friends to build a sort of hearth religion.

This sounds interesting, a very eclectic take that you created for your own enjoyment.

And yet when you say "witchery" does this include some Wiccan hopes that one can influence the material world in a supernatural way? In my own studies of Wicca, I have come to see it as "the other side of the coin" with regard to Christianity. Both believe that there is a supernatural essence which can be influenced - one through prayer to God, the other through ritual and worship dedicated to pagan Goddesses (and perhaps somewhat similar to Ancient Greek religion).

Yet Epicurus teaches that the gods live in bliss and have no concern for man. The world is material, and nothing can come from nothing.

Imagine in Epicurus' time, that he was surrounded on all sides by people who believed in the myths and the power of the gods. I can see why he would continue to participate in the rituals for several reasons: 1) because there was pleasure in the festivals, and 2) he would have gotten a lot flak from everyone around him (non-Epicureans) if he hadn't participated in the rituals.

In some sense the only parallel here is that if you are Epicurean and you find yourself surrounded by Christians family members, then perhaps you might join in with them by bowing your head during prayer before meals.

Now personally, I would hesitate to create any new rituals to Greek or other pagan gods/goddesses, as fun as it could be -- there is not any necessity and it creates "supernatural" ideations.

Thank you Don for your translation of the PD last night, I don't know if we have your translation on the forum somewhere?

What sticks in my mind is the importance of the phrase "if they taught the limits of desires [and of pains]..." (they being the pleasures of the profligate).

That bit about pains in brackets is not in every translation above, which I find interesting.

Also this morning I was reflecting on how the idea of the limits of desires is very different from the idea within Zen Buddhism that desires are inexhaustible. It is almost as if this Epicurean principle is an quick and reasonable short-cut to liberation -- no long hours of meditation are required. But yet what is required is some contemplation, and I still intend to study and "sit" with this (in a contemplative sense) till I get to fully understand what the "limits of desire" are (and may post more on that soon).

I discovered this article yesterday, and now I see it already has a thread on the forum thanks to Don.

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/01/how-balance-hard-work-and-pleasure-happiness/617847/

Quote from Don

It's not a matter of balance. "Virtues" are instrumental.

That the virtues are instrumental is important to think about for anyone reading the article.

Also, we can see some of the popularized, over-simplified, and incorrect ideas about Epicureanism -- it claims Epicureans are seeking a happy life based on freedom from mental disturbance and absence of physical pain -- yet when we see the big picture through study of the entire Epicurean teachings, then we see that this not the full story -- we are also intentionally moving toward pleasure and enjoyment.

The article implies that Epicureans aren't seeking meaning in life -- but I would say that for myself I am finding meaning in studying Epicureanism and helping others study Epicureanism, as well as reclaiming pleasure as the goal of life and helping others do so as well -- so once again it is that the virtues are instrumental toward pleasure and happiness.

I found this on summer solstice festivals:

Quote

Ancient Greeks

According to certain iterations of the Greek calendar—they varied widely by region and era—the summer solstice was the first day of the year. Several festivals were held around this time, including Kronia, which celebrated the agriculture god Cronus. The strict social code was temporarily turned on its head during Kronia, with slaves participating in the merriment as equals or even being served by their masters. The summer solstice also marked the one-month countdown to the opening of the Olympic games.

Ancient Romans

In the days leading up to the summer solstice, ancient Romans celebrated the Vestalia festival, which paid tribute to Vesta, the goddess of the hearth. Rituals included the sacrifice of an unborn calf remove from its mother’s womb. This was the only time of the year when married women were allowed to enter the sacred temple of the vestal virgins and make offerings to Vesta there.

Source

Quote from Cassius

Yes I think Don's answer applies in most cases in the last comment. But I am not sure it is a good idea for us to take the "everyone pursues pleasure whether they admit it or not" too far. Some people do seem to choose pain for the sake of pain, under the influence of warped thinking. EG - "I am a worm and I deserved to be squashed by God.".

Not sure about the "worm deserving to be squashed" -- that sounds like someone who feels "guilty for their sins", which in my book is whole other issue coming out of Christianity.

There is the saying: "No pain, no gain":

From Wikipedia:

"No pain, no gain (or "No gain without pain") is a proverb, used since the 1980s as an exercise motto that promises greater value rewards for the price of hard and even painful work. Under this conception competitive professionals, such as athletes and artists, are required to endure pain (physical suffering) and stress (mental/emotional suffering) to achieve professional excellence. Medical experts agree that the proverb is wrong for exercise."

And then from a mental side: "no growth without pain" and the belief that achieving success requires pain. This could occassionally be true. But what kind of success is this for anyway? "cutthroat marketing" or generating the highest profits, not for pleasure but for big money.

And this is all about an either/or -- either pleasure or pain -- which is incorrect because it leaves out the option of engaging in pleasureable exercise -- or pleasureable work which isn't focused on hugh profit.

Quote from Matteng

Beside the pure sense-pleasures, I value for example that:

-I am not addicted to something/someone

-value friends/familiy, progress in society,

-have compassiong for humans and animals

-love to learn new things and philosophy (like Epicurus), learning about nature, value/ like to improve abilities.

Are that "pleasures of the soul" ?

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Quote from Cassius

If something brings you a feeling OF ANY KIND then the feeling is ultimately pleasurable or painful. All human mental and physical activities fall in one of these two categories, no matter how much the abstractionists want to protest that their virtues are higher than pleasure.

Good questions Matteng. And both Don and Cassius, I am enjoying reading your replies, and I'd like to throw in this into the mix:

From the Letter to Menoeceus:

"Third, keep in mind that some desires are natural whereas others are groundless [note]; that among the natural desires some are natural and necessary whereas others are merely natural; and that among the necessary desires some are necessary for happiness, some for physical health [note], and some for life itself."

To illustrate what is unnecessary: This morning I was offered a chocolate covered cream filled donut (because my sister bought an entire box yesterday). Yet I have been slowly gaining weight (and I do not want to go out an buy new bigger pants). So I am choosing to reduce my sugar intake. I acknowledged my desire when I said "yes, those do look good" and then, acknowledged the recognition that the donut was unnecessary when I said: "but no thank you" as I had already in mind to choose to eat unsweetened oatmeal with some strawberries. I made this choice for the sake of physical health. Good health is both a pleasure and a value.

What is unnecessary is that which is either not needed for long-term enjoyment/happiness and/or that which brings pain as a long-term result.

It up to each person to make wise choices about what for themselves is "necessary vs unnecessary" and we might each make different choices depending on our circumstances. There are some PDs which do point out important pleasures, such as PD27 --"Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship."

And I would say friendship is both a pleasure and a value. It brings both physical and mental joy. And Letter to Menoeceus ends with: "So practice these and similar things day and night, by yourself and with a like-minded friend..."

Quote from Kalosyni

The following translation is sure to spark debate:

I should rather say "fun debate" or interesting discussion

The following translation is sure to spark debate:

"If the things that produce the delights of those who are decadent washed away the mind's fears about astronomical phenomena and death and suffering, and furthermore if they taught us the limits of our pains and desires, then we would have no complaints against them, since they would be filled with every joy and would contain not a single pain or distress (and that's what is bad)."[note] (translation by Peter Saint-Andre)

You can click here to see other translations and forum pages.

Please join us on June 22, 2022 for further discussion on PD 10.

Brand new attendees: please register through Eventbrite.

If you already attended once before you can simply re-use the link given in your registration.

Here is my own wording on PD9:

"Because the pleasures are of differing lengths in time, and occur spread out through time and in differing parts of the body, this is why they feel different from each other."

Yet I still think that there is an implication that the underlying sensation of pleasure is the same for all types of pleasure inducing stimulus - the only thing that varies is the intensity, the duration, and the part of the body that feels the pleasure.

My own wording on PD9:

"Because the pleasures are of differing lengths in time, and occur spread out through time and in differing parts of the body, this is why they feel different from each other."

The way I understand it is a "good" or to be more specific a "natural good" is condition or a virtue which leads to pleasure and pleasant life.

So just like you can have goods that you buy from a store (which are physical and extrinsic) then you have intrinsic goods which are conditions or virtues.

Quote from Don

...for the record - I have no problem with "tranquility."

In fact, I'm coming around to the idea that ataraxia and aponia actually refer to something like homeostasis or basically just the sensation that the body and mind are working well and in-tune. One can more easily or readily experience pleasure - of all kinds - when neither the body nor the mind are troubled.

Thank you Don, what you say is very helpful, and I realize that I need to study up more on this.

I find that it makes more sense for me to think of "peace of mind" instead of "tranquility". So essentially anytime the word tranquility comes up then substitute that. Also to think about how pleasure can be at its greatest when there is "absence of stress and anxiety".

What is further interesting about this article (which I haven't quite finished reading yet) is that it seems to point toward goods that we can cultivate -- personal Epicurean goods as those that are possessed through the efforts of those who cultivate them (they are internal and which we come to possess due to our own efforts rather than through fortune).

And it gives VS 45 as a reference:

"The study of what is natural produces not braggarts nor windbags nor those who show off the culture that most people fight about, but those who are fearless and self-reliant and who value their own good qualities rather than the good things that have come to them from external circumstances."note]

The above article needs to be critically read since it does touch on tranquility, and kinetic/katastematic pleasure. Read this article with care. I would say that we here on the forum view tranquility as an abstract ideal which is not the ultimate goal of living. I find that reading this opens up the whole tranquility question, all over again. And so then this question pops up: Is a life of tranquility happy or pleasureable? It really all depends on how you define tranquility, and how you make choices. Do you stay home and do nothing?

From the article:

That which causes or leads to the elimination of bodily and mental pain is an instrumental good. A constitutive good is an intrinsic good. Not clear about what benefit the categorization of instrumental vs. constitutive goods hold.

VS 32 -- reverence is an instrumental good (showing reverence for a wise man is itself a great good for him who reveres).

PD 27 / VS 28 -- wisdom is an instrumental good (of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship).

Self-suficiency is a constitutive good (Ep. Men. 130)

Phronesis is a good (Ep. Men. 132)

Friendship is a good (PD 27 / VS 28)

There is also a section on personal goods.

The topic of natural goods briefly came up in last Wednesday's Zoom discussion. So thinking about what are natural goods within Epicureanism, as well as references such as the Principle Doctrines, etc.

It seems that friendship, freedom, and self-sufficiency are all natural goods, and there could be others?

Also, I just found this article (written in 2021) by Alex R. Gilham.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27007901

This article starts out with saying that pleasure is the only intrinsic good, but that there are various other non-intrinsic goods, and the aim of the paper is to classify the Epicurean goods. Will post more after I read it. And if anyone else wants to post thoughts after reading the article, or about the natural goods question, please do so.

The image in this week's meeting announcement is Bacchus by Italian painter Caravaggio, painted in 1598.

I thought it was fitting for Principle Doctrine 8:

"No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves." (Monadnock)

Thanks Don for sharing the article, simple as it is.

I think his negative opening comment on Epicurus was because he might think that the fear of death will help motivate someone to enjoy the present moment.

I think everyone is at their own level of dealing with time and the idea of death, depending on how much they have contemplated their own mortality. Unlike the author of the article, I personally think that no matter how old one is, that some amount of planning is a good thing. But of course if one is retired, then one will plan different types of activities compared to if one is still employed. Also, it does take some planning in order to organize social events, so hopefully we all keep that up until the day we die. I think some amount of planning also can help make life more enjoyable, but also not being too attached to any one specific outcome (being able to go with the flow as things unfold).

This was a fun quote, as I myself do tend to live in the future:

Quote

 

The result is what’s been called the “when-I-finally” mindset: the sense that real fulfilment, or even real life itself, hasn’t quite arrived yet, so that present experience is merely something to get through, en route to something better. The person stuck in such a mindset, wrote John Maynard Keynes, “does not love his cat, but his cat’s kittens; nor, in truth, the kittens, but only the kittens’ kittens, and so on forward for ever to the end of cat-dom”.

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beasain, I just looked up about propolis, and found an online article which says that

Greek and Roman physicians used it as mouth disinfectant and as an antiseptic and healing product in wound treatment, prescribed for topical therapy of cutaneous and mucosal wounds.

Joshua, hope to see you next week.