Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Don

It seems to me the three are more editions of the same text rather than thinking of them as three different "versions."

Thank you Don for clarifying that

A recent thread diving deeper into Principle Doctrines 26 and 30, had me thinking again to investigate if it is possible to categorize desires, so here is my attempt (suggest changes or additions please):

The "Epicurus in Lycia" source says three different versions of KD's !!!

Welcome to the forum Ben!

Quote from Don

By Zeus! "Bitter gift" shows up everywhere!!

Quote from Don

Although "gift" sets up the idea that there's a giver so that's a bit problematic.

I have to say it is not necessarily "everywhere".

I think it may be an attempted smear campaign, because it is on a few Christian websites. But it is very upsetting that it is on the wikipedia website (and this wikipedia is poorly/incorrectly written).

Maybe Joshua has some insights, as I see a reference to "bitter gift" from an Ancient Greek tragedy Hippolytus by Euripides ("bitter gift" of Poseidon):

The Greek Plays

books.google.com

This morning a song came to mind. When I was a teen I went to private singing lessons and my teacher had me practice Broadway hits. One song that stuck with me is from Oaklahoma (and since back in time I had no idea of the story line from this play it has a kind of simplicity for me).

Part of the lyrics:

Oh, what a beautiful mornin'
Oh, what a beautiful day
I've got a beautiful feelin'
Everything's goin' my way

And further thoughts -- that there are so many variations of feelings, and sometimes thinking about them makes it even better!

But I would say that the consideration of happiness is very important, and any kind of furtherance of Epicureanism will depend upon how we present our ideas of happiness, what happiness is, and how to increase happiness.

Quote from Cassius

How do you set up an outline of Epicurean happiness without ever mentioning "pleasure"?

But after laughing out loud it really make me mad, or better stated, resolved to do as much as possible to improve the situation.

Right! And so how would we list The Factors of Happiness?

-- the study of philosophy (and right understanding of death/God/choices & avoidances, etc.)

-- good friends

-- the daily fullness of pleasure

-- ?

-- ?

Welcome to the forum Sid

Instead of tranquility or mindfulness, how about clear-mindedness and ease...lots of other possibilities?

Mindfulness sometimes could end up being too focused inward or on inner sensations.

Quote from Pacatus

“For ataraxia, ultimately and simply, is a physical undisturbedness.” [That is, not simply a mental state.]

Well now, this got me thinking about when the startle reflex is activated -- heart-rate, blood pumping, adrenaline all amped up and that is the "fight or flight response".

Quote from Don

"Metrodorus, in his book On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects, says: 'What else is the good of the soul but the sound state of the flesh, and the sure hope of its continuance?'"

And also, this brings up the firm belief that an Epicurean would not choose to be employed in any kind of high-risk/high-adrenaline enterprises -- or anything which disturbs the physical body or threatens its continuance.

Just this last Saturday there was an afternoon/evening event in a nearby little town, in honor of Oktoberfest (but chose not to partake for various reasons, one of which was no designated driver). Also, the US, breweries often celebrate with a new release of some kind. Anyway, lately I've got beer on my mind (haven't had any in many months). I really can only drink about a half pint at a time, otherwise it hits me too hard. Perhaps I will choose to imbibe just a little on my birthday. Something with a chocolate/coffee finish

Quote

Oktoberfest is a German tradition known around the world for its beer, delicious food, and celebration of German culture. It’s a chance to put aside differences, raise a glass, and shout, “Prost!” (That’s “Cheers!” in German.)

Given the name, one would think that it would also be a chance to celebrate the great month of October. And it is. What’s shocking, though, is that this festival’s namesake month barely gets to take part in the festivities.

That’s right—the majority of Oktoberfest takes place in September, which makes Oktoberfest seem like one of the biggest misnomers we use all the time. The entire festival runs 16-18 days, depending on the year, and most of them are in September. For example, the 2019 dates were September 21–October 6. Sadly, the 2020 festival was canceled due to the coronavirus pandemic. However, when Oktoberfest began in 1810, it did take place entirely in October, from the 12th to the 17th.

The first Oktoberfest was a celebration of the marriage between Bavarian Crown Prince Ludwig and Princess Therese von Sachsen-Hildburghausen. It lasted five days, during which the citizens of Munich were invited to eat and drink to their hearts’ content while listening to live music and watching parades. The party ended with a horse race at the edge of town. Learn more about the origins of Oktoberfest—and why it’s not all about beer.

https://www.rd.com/article/oktoberfest-starts-september/

Quote from Godfrey

Are you saying that desires add in pleasures? Or that desires equate to pleasures? Or desires are additional to pleasures and pains?

There are some desires for adding in experience of sweetness and enjoyablenes, and there are some desires which are to stop the experience of pain. Eating chocolate cake is a desire which brings in extra stimulation beyond just the removal of hunger -- and if it was just for removal of hunger then we could eat bread instead of cake. If we eat too much cake we may start to feel overly full, and so we then stop eating cake to stop the discomfort. But there are other desires for additive pleasures besides just eating cake.

And some people may be more oriented (motivated) to stop pain rather than seek pleasure. For example a person who calls up a friend to talk because they feel lonely (and want to remove the pain of loneliness) vs a person who calls up a friend because they enjoy telling jokes and laughing together (desire for adding in fun).

Quote from Godfrey

Since the purpose of the inscription was evangelism, saying that we've excised and minimized pains is much more appealing to the average passersby than saying we've excised and minimized desires. Working with desires is a way that pain can be minimized, but that detail can come later.

lol -- this made me laugh, and yet there could be truth to it. But of course this brings up the whole "tranquility problem" -- which for me seems unresolvable. To be tranquil or not to be tranquil - perhaps we have to move beyond the "either/or" -- because sometimes we will take on pains if future pleasures will be greater.

Quote from Don

I'm definitely leaning toward seeing "τῶν τε λυπῶν τὰς μὲν κ̣εν̣ὰ̣ς ἐξεκόψαμεν" as referring to completely excising pains that are fruitlessly or unnecessarily experienced.

Those pains that one needlessly experiences, probably stemming from trying to satisfy groundless desires.

This does bring up the additive vs the subtractive. The word "desires" has a sound of adding in something. Where as "removing pains" is getting rid of something. I think all of this is open to further contemplation. We are going to be engaging in choices and avoidances that sometimes are one and sometimes are the other. And we may have differences in which direction we tend to go in (removing pain/adding in pleasure). We will be on the right track, as long as our choices are not bringing great pain (bad results).

This recipe looks interesting, but I would guess this is a modern version of honey cake (no nuts). I like how she says it is good with coffee or tea, and you just make it an call some friends over, lol.

Greek Honey Cake

Simple and extra moist Greek honey cake! Honey Cake Watch the Video My extra moist Greek honey cake is light, sweet, and has a lot of honey flavor. Orange zest…

www.dimitrasdishes.com

Cassius, I want give you credit for your mentioning the following idea:

The phrasing at the end of fragment 1, "pleasure / pain" is not being differentiated from "desire for pleasure / pain" so he must be talking loosely. If you feel pain there is always a reason for that pain, and the desire to remove that pain -- so that is how we get either groundless or natural

So this wording on the wall is a quick way to wrap up the whole idea quickly.

So the Wall of Diogenes of Oinoanda may be the only place where we see the idea of "pains which are groundless", and "pains which are natural"?

Quote from Don

when I use tranquility or ataraxia.

I don't mean some mystical state or some "special" state or some woo-woo state.

I do mean simply a clear-headed, calm mind unruffled by anxiety or fear.

A person can have that state if they are relaxing, if they are engaged in action, even if they're on the battlefield. It means someone isn't freaking out. It means they approach decisions clearly, decisively, with no equivocation or regret.

Does that state arise naturally? Yes.

Does it take practice to achieve and maintain that state? Absolutely.

Is it better to have that state as a foundation from which to confront the "slings and arrows" of daily life than other states? Yes indeed, in my opinion.

In the end, I don't think one can truly be happy, be filled with well-being, or experience satisfaction unless you're working towards having that calm baseline to work from.

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So then this "working towards having a calm baseline" would require therapeutics?

And if so, then we need to list all of them -- sourced from PD's, Vatican Sayings, Letter to Menoeceus, Diogenes Laertius wise man sayings, and Cicero's Torquatus -- so we see what specifically leads to this calm baseline.