Posts by Kalosyni

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  • Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, and Clothing

    This thread is for Epicureans in ancient Greece and Rome, focusing on historical events, culture, clothing, and lifestyle (Edit note: 02/21/25 - moved earlier posts into this new thread).

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    I found this book "The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus" (when Googling "Epicureans and effeminancy") which looks like it could shed some light on the culture of Epicureans. Though tracking down a library copy might be a bit difficult, unless anyone lives near a good university library.

    The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus
    The school of Greek philosopher Epicurus, which became known as the Garden, famously put great stock in happiness and pleasure. As a philosophical community,…
    www.press.umich.edu
    Quote

    Description

    The school of Greek philosopher Epicurus, which became known as the Garden, famously put great stock in happiness and pleasure. As a philosophical community, and a way of seeing the world, Epicureanism had a centuries-long life in Athens and Rome, as well as across the Mediterranean.

    The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus studies how the Garden's outlook on pleasure captured Greek and Roman imaginations—particularly among non-Epicureans—for generations after its legendary founding. Unsympathetic sources from disparate eras generally focus not on historic personages but on the symbolic Epicurean. And yet the traditions of this imagined Garden, with its disreputable women and unmanly men, give us intermittent glimpses of historical Epicureans and their conceptions of the Epicurean life.

    Pamela Gordon suggests how a close hearing and contextualization of anti-Epicurean discourse leads us to a better understanding of the cultural history of Epicureanism. Her primary focus is on sources hostile to the Garden, but her Epicurean-friendly perspective is apparent throughout. Her engagement with ancient anti-Epicurean texts makes more palpable their impact on modern responses to the Garden.

    Intended both for students and for scholars of Epicureanism and its response, the volume is organized primarily according to the themes common among Epicurus' detractors. It considers the place of women in Epicurean circles, as well as the role of Epicurean philosophy in Homer and other writers.

    Pamela Gordon is Chair of the Department of Classics at the University of Kansas and the author of Epicurus in Lycia: The Second-Century World of Diogenes of Oenoanda.

  • "Medicine" of Epicurus: Removing Fear and Finding Freedom

    Thank you Don, that was an interesting wikipedia:

    Quote

    Entertainment Weekly said the Kobayashi Maru test is one of the top ten elements of Star Trek with which non-fans are likely to be familiar;[5] writing for Tor, Keith DeCandido said "everyone knows that the Kobayashi Maru refers to a no-win scenario".[6]

    ...The term has been applied to real-world scenarios with no perceived positive outcome or that requires out-of-the-box thinking, such as climate change,[10] constitutional law,[11] education,[12] and the casting of the Ancient One character in Doctor Strange.[13][14] Commentators have used Kirk's unorthodox answer to the Kobayashi Maru test as an example of the need to redefine the premises upon which an organization operates—changing the rules rather than playing within them.[15][16] Computer security educators have used the Kobayashi Maru to teach students to think like an adversary, and that by stepping outside the rules of the game one can redefine the game.[17] Ideas and products focusing on immersive learning have also been compared to the realistic, immersive nature of the Kobayashi Maru test.

    Wondering, do we have a "Kobayashi Maru" situation when it comes to Epicureanism? So perhaps we need to "redefine the rules" -- For Epicurus' ideas to survive, and also our interpretations to survive, we will need to go beyond the scant remaining writings, we will need to thoughly express specific Epicurean interpretations and assertions on modern issues -- and the best way may be to write and publish a book outlining these interpretations.

  • "Medicine" of Epicurus: Removing Fear and Finding Freedom

    Quote from Cassius

    Also to the tiger example, and Epicurean might say: "What the heck are you doing hanging out around cliffs where tigers are everywhere?"

    :D True!

    Quote from Cassius

    don't care for hypotheticals

    Yes, and this hypothetical story could be interpreted many ways. I see it as dealing with things we can't avoid such as "death and taxes". And dealing with the feeling of fear which might arise at death, and we are not immortal -- and this question: Can you be clear minded enough as you become conscious that your death is imminent? Can you be so awake to the unfolding of every moment that you taste and enjoy whatever delicious things come your way?

    Quote from Cassius

    Or are we in charge of our lives and moving as aggressively as possible to experience pleasure and avoid pain?

    The word "aggressively" conjures up hard work of some kind -- doing hard work to experience pleasure is personally not my cup of tea. The hardest work I think I will ever try to take on for the sake of pleasure will hopefully be sometime in the next three years -- to go on a trip to Greece. I don't travel well (can't sleep on long intercontinental flights) nor adjust to time changes very easily, nor sleep very well in hotels, but I think I am willing to try to make the net result be more pleasureable than the pain that will occur (it may end up being a tie). If there needs to be pain of any kind, it is not for the sake of "looking good" or to appear smart or virtuous, but only as a function of a necessary tool that moves toward pleasure.

    Perhaps I have a more delicate constitution than some folks -- too much stress or noise can cause me stomach pains or digestive problems -- I think there is room for all of us under the Epicurean umbrella -- we who are more delicate can root for and applaude the courageous, strong, and daring pleasure-seekers, without needing to apologize or feel guilty or worry about defending our choices and delicate constitutions. :saint:

  • "Medicine" of Epicurus: Removing Fear and Finding Freedom

    After this last post by Don, just remembered this Zen story:

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    A man was walking across a field when he saw a tiger. Fearing for his life, the man fled, but the tiger gave chase. The man reached the edge of a cliff, and just as he thought the tiger would get him, he spotted a vine growing over the edge of the cliff. Grabbing on to it, he swung himself over the edge to safety.

    The tiger came to the edge and snarled at him from above. While precariously perched like this, the man saw another tiger growling at him from below. Trembling, he held on to the thin vine that was keeping him from being dinner for the tigers. What could be worse than this, he wondered.

    Just then, two mice scampered out and began gnawing at the vine. As they chewed and the man pondered over his fate, he saw a juicy, red strawberry on a ledge next to him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. Ah, how sweet it tasted!

    This Zen story always struck me as very different than most Zen stories, as it points toward a the sensual pleasure of taste. It is also a kind of contemplation on mortality. For further reading on this koan click here.


    I would say this is a very Epicurean way to deal with death.

  • "Medicine" of Epicurus: Removing Fear and Finding Freedom

    Quote from Cassius

    I sometimes think that we (in general, in today's world) aren't nearly anxious ENOUGH! We've blinded ourselves with religious-like incantions to endure the anxiety that ought to be there even more than it is now if we fully realized that the train is indeed coming down the track we're standing on.

    That "train" being death? --- Or the end of civilization?

    Either religion/"new age" self-help, or unnecessary consumerism -- Yet now I realize that unpleasant feelings sometimes help motivate action. But optimistic anxiety (knowing what needs to be done and doing it) may give better results than pessimistic anxiety (giving up/hopelessness). But at what point do you decide to keep "partying" even if the "Titanic" may be sinking?

    Quote from Nate

    It takes the support of a trusted friend to know you well enough to offer nuanced advice.

    That can sometimes be difficult, as even friends don't fully understand the situation. Or you would need to have wise friends.

  • "Medicine" of Epicurus: Removing Fear and Finding Freedom

    I wonder if some kinds of modern therapy or modern psychology can end up being a kind "false medicine"? I ask this question because if the fear of death is not adequately dealt with, then anxiety persists. I discovered recently that my own sister is taking anti-depressants (and yet she is a devout Christian so her religion seems like it isn't helping).

    There are many fears in modern life that we must work through, and then the question is: Does Epicurean philosophy help remove the various fears that can arise?

    I think that the fear of the future turning out badly is a primary fear among many. We can't enjoy life if we have fears about the future. And now it seems that climate change is a widespread stimulus for fear. The rate of inflation is also a stimulus for fear (especially among retired folks). Fear of future food shortages -- my own family recently sending text message on the family text thread about an egg shortage.

    And then also we must think about what is rational, and what is actually true (and not just a news hype). And support each other in maintaining courage to face the unknowns of the future -- so wise friendship is very important.

  • "Medicine" of Epicurus: Removing Fear and Finding Freedom

    I found this good post by Elli which highlights the "medicine" of Epicurus, as dealing with removing the fear of God (gods) and the fear of death. And that these two factors are the cause of the other fears which commonly plague the minds of many. If anyone has more to add or further questions, we could start dialog regarding this "Medicine of Epicurus". And I am wondering how hedonic calculus fits in, which normally I see as dealing with making choices in regard to pleasure. Maybe this is simple, or maybe there is more than what meets the eye?

    You can find the original post here.

  • Food and Medicine in the Time of the Epicureans in Ancient Greece and Rome

    This thread is for food (and food as medicine) in the time of Epicureans in ancient Greece and Rome.

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    Regarding honey in ancient times:

    Quote

    In Athens, beekeeping was so organized that the great legislator Solon (640-558 BC) was forced to define by law the distances that should exist between apiaries so as not to create misunderstandings about the ownership of flocks.


    They did not have sugar, but they had honey, as part of their diet and medicine.


    Honey in the life of the ancient Greeks - Asterios Bio
    The art of beekeeping is not something new in Greece. On the contrary, it has been proven that honey played a leading role in the daily life of the ancient…
    asteriosbio.com
    Honey in history: Ancient Greece
    Greece has always been a land with beautiful and various flora. Honey bees have always been at home here. Today their excellent honey is sold all over the…
    healthywithhoney.com

  • Plato's Philebus and the Limit of Pleasure

    Quote from Cassius

    3- "that Pleasure can be complete when it fills out experience, and thus we don't always need more" (PD3)

    There are certain pleasures in which one must take care -- PD3 ought to be combined with PD8 -- especially when eating dessert -- because the bad result doesn't come till later on, after you have eaten too much. At a family gathering today, the adults knew how to apply reason with regard to limiting the quantity of dessert, but my great-nephews and great niece wanted to have third helpings of dessert -- their mom had to tell them they had already had enough.

    Quote

    ...sugar also triggers the mesocorticolimbic system, known as the “reward pathway,” in the brain. When we consume sugar, the prefrontal cortex, amygdala, ventral-tegmental area, and nucleus accumbens are stimulated, releasing dopamine. After sugar triggers this system, we’re left craving more, because these parts of the brain are responsible for behavior reinforcement, pleasure-seeking, and addiction, according to a study published in Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews in 2019.

    For more on sugar, read this.

  • Epicurean Similarities With Early Christianity

    Quote from Nate

    “Epicurus is occasionally described as as a saviour (sōtér) or messenger (kéryx), terms which are also used by Epicureans themselves and are reminiscient of Old Testament expressions. Perhaps such a choice of words was intended as a kind of ‘competitive offer’ to the blossoming Christianity.” (The Cambridge Companion to Epicureanism 53)

    The current understanding of the word "saviour" comes to us by the Christian faith in Jesus being eternal/immortal and all powerful. I would doubt Epicureans felt that way about Epicurus. The word "messenger" implies that the message is coming from God (or the gods), but then maybe there was a different understanding of this word back then. Could it be that back in time there were groups of Christian Epicureans, or groups that converted from Christianity to Epicureanism?

    Further thought on prayer (and regarding post # 1 of this thread) -- I have a hard time with the idea that Epicureans prayed to the gods "on purpose". And my understanding of the importance of birthdays in Epicureanism is that this could either take the place of sacrifice to the gods, or as a way to establish a ritual which would focus the minds of Epicureans on mortality and friendship -- hey, we are mortal and only live this one life, so let's honor human lives with birthday celebrations, and also friendship being a reason to celebrate birthdays. Can we really know one way or another?

  • Epicurean Similarities With Early Christianity

    Quote from Nate

    “[P]etitionary prayer to the gods is obviously, for an Epicurean, of no avail; and, indeed, as Epicurus says in his Vatican sayings 65, it is pointless to pray for happiness which a man can provide for himself. If the gods paid attention to human prayers the human race would long since have become extinct since men are continually praying for calamities to fall upon their enemies [...] Yet Epicurus recommend prayer, on the grounds that it is a natural act and that one should also participate in the religious life of one’s country,

    Thanks for sharing this about prayer. Now in modern times Christian people are praying for things that they want (and not against enemies). Since I am currently living with and near family, I am often in a "strange situation" in which I have to "pretend" to pray out of kindness and respect to my family. I do feel that there is something about the situation that is parallel to what Epicureans must have encountered. There is something comforting in being clear about my own thoughts on God and death. So I can "pretend pray" without feeling uncomfortable.

  • Is there a notion of cultivating "sensitivity" in Epicureanism?

    Some thoughts regarding the question: "Is there a notion of cultivating "sensitivity" in Epicureanism".

    I would say that for myself, I am cultivating the ability to be aware and to reason regarding the nature of pleasure and pain in my body and mind. This would be based on several of the Principle Doctrines.

    PD8 -"No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves."

    PD29 -"Among desires, some are natural and necesary, some are natural and unnecessary, and some are unnatural and unnecessary (arising instead from groundless opinion).

    Quote from Root304

    I've mainly been intrigued with the ideas in Internal Family Systems therapy, where the mind is seen as having a multiplicity of personalities that we engage with in a social way in the therapeutic space (the inner critics, the inner children, ect). The angry inner voices are "entities" we should engage with.

    I am not familar with this therapy, nor the others you mention.

    You might like to look into the writings of Philodemus "On Anger". I haven't studied it, but Don has, and could point to threads or material to read.

    Some further thoughts -- Modern therapy is very different than Epicureanism, and according to this Wikipedia article on psychotherapy, is thought to have begun in 1879. And now there are many new therapies, which may not be "evidence based". I hold a materialist and scientific understanding of the world, and so personally I would avoid any therapy which is not scientifically tested. Here is a website explaining evidence based therapy.

    Quote from Root304

    I got a lot of pleasure and a settled mind in doing the work,

    That sounds great! So if you find it is helpful and leads to more enjoyment (and less pain) that sounds like it is good for you. We each find pleasure in many different ways. Others here on the forum have other avenues in which they seek pleasure. Life really presents a "smorgasbord" of pleasure, we just need to open up to it. :)

  • Plato's Philebus and the Limit of Pleasure

    Thank you Cassius, I like this list!

    I would personally rephrase # 2

    Quote

    2 - "that anything we cannot sense is irrelevant to us and thus the state of being dead can cause us no harm or good" (PD2)

    Consciousness depends on the body, without consciousness we cannot sense or even think, and thus the state of being dead can cause us no harm or good.

  • Plato's Philebus and the Limit of Pleasure

    Quote from Cassius

    Nature’s wants are slight; the demands of opinion are boundless.

    This quote is from post # 5 above -- This would be PD15. And it is expanding on the idea of "limits" on pleasure from a slightly different angle than PD3. In a sense it is a blend of both Plato's and Epicurus' arguments.

    I think modern civilization is inseparable from the "demands of opinion" -- the idea that clothing, cars, homes, etc must all look new or well kept. And we recognize classes of people by their appearance and the appearance of their possessions, or by the state of the neighborhoods in which they live. These kinds of pleasures have no limit. You will have to invest time and effort toward these pleasures -- and much more difficult to fulfill for those who do not have enough money to spend -- and in some situations people work long and hard hours to fulfill these pleasures, so that any pleasure gained by this means is negated by the time and stress. And then this points also toward what types of pleasures to pursue, and that "natural" pleasures can be fullfilled and are achievable (thus have a limit) -- and give a longer lasting feeling of fullfillment.

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