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Some further thought:
1. I may have added in a few ideas which are not backed by Epicurean sources, and I need to be clear about what the sources actually say (and what they don't say).
2. I need to be clear if what I wrote is correct.
3. Now in our present time, is this helpful or needed? Will anyone find this useful? What parts of the philosophy are the most helpful or needed?
Is the outline: (1) How I Think I Should Live? or (2) The Important Aspects of Epicurus, or (3) What I Would Say To A Friend About Epicurus If I Only Had Five Minutes .... or something like that.
For me it is what I think are good points -- and what I would say to a friend. But I still need to flesh out a lot more.
And maybe it would be good if when someone posts an outline that they also say what their goal is.
Here is a new personal Epicurean outline. I wrote everything just off the top of my head, and some areas still need more study. Also some things are my own ideas (such as the last point at the very end of the outline).
My New Outline of Epicureanism -- November 3, 2022
I. The Life of Epicurus and Flourishing of Epicureanism
A. His place in history (facts)
B. He challenged others and was challenged (and was both revered and reviled)
C. Epicureanism flourished and spread far and wide
D. Written sources of Epicurean philosophy
II. The Philosophy
A. Cosmology and Natural Physics (World View)
1. A materialist and non-supernatural understanding of the universe.
a. understanding the natural world as arising out of atoms and void and having knowable causes (very similar to our modern scientific understanding of the natural world)
b. there were some of Epicurus' ideas that we know are incorrect now that we have modern science.
2. There are no creator god(s) and god(s) are not involved in the lives of humans. Epicurus' own view of the gods is unclear (if they exist in actuality or in only as objects of dreams).
B. Epistemology/Canonics
C. Ethics
1. Pleasure is the natural innate goal of human (and animal) life
a. We naturally seek out pleasure and naturally seek to avoid pain
b. We can observe this instinct in animals and in babies and young children
c. As we mature learn that at times it is better to forego some pleasures so that we can have even greater pleasures in the future
d. And we learn that sometimes we must endure pains so that we can prevent worse pain, or for the possibilityexperience pleasure, in the future
2. The Tetrapharmakos (attributed to Philodemus)
a. There is no need to fear the gods
b. There is no need to fear death
c. What we need to stay alive is readily available
d. We need not fear pain because strong pain is brief and light pain can be overcome by pleasure.(And also now we have modern medicine/pain medications)
3. Correct Understanding of Justice
a. since gods are not involved with humans it does not come from god(s)
b. It does not exist abstractly in a Platonic sense
c. It is determined by feelings of pleasure/pain and mutual benefit
d. It is upheld by agreements between humans
4. A Pleasurable and Content Life
1. Pleasure is an enjoyable feeling of the senses
2. Ataraxia is an enjoyable feeling of the soul
3. We make use and enjoy everything that comes our way, but we don't depend upon luxurious foods or lifestyle for pleasure if we don't have the money to buy expensive things
4. There are things beyond possessions which lead to a happy and content life -- correct understanding of the nature of the world, friendship, self-sufficency, and wise choices and avoidances (these are "natural goods").
5. There are natural needs, which are natural and necessary for life and happiness of the body and soul, and for these we can go out, put effort into, and find fulfillment.
6. There are also human cravings which are based on false opinions and lead to more pain than pleasure -- the desire for power and fame. These can only be eradicated by proper refutation.
a. the pursuit of power and fame can require one to forego the natural (instinctual) animal movement toward pleasure and avoidance of pain, and instead adopt an absolutist and "stoic" harshness to accomplish one's goals.
b. The natural goods which lead to a pleasureable lifestyle will need to be set aside -- friendship becomes a means to an end and not a pleasure
c. self-sufficiency must be set aside to make pacts and obligations with others to "further the cause". Power and fame requires one to be beholden to others to "get ahead".
d. It may require the violation of others to get ahead or maintain control, resulting in bad consequences (and causing a life of unhappiness).
This website has been up for a while, but wanted to add here for easy reference.
"This translation renders selected fragments of Epicurus from Greek into English. The numbering follows that of Hermann Usener in his 1887 volume Epicurea."
Saint-Andre says:
"I made the first version of this translation in 2011; as of 2018 I am adding more fragments."
Fragment 2 -- Lack of mental disturbance and lack of bodily pain are static pleasures, whereas revelry and rejoicing are active pleasures involving movement.
Here we have a definition of "static" and "active" pleasures which is very simple.
The link to his translation:
I was just reading a thread about the Tetrapharmakos (and how it is a quick way of summarizing the first four Principle Doctrines) and in this thread an important point about outlines and summaries is brought up:
Quote by Cassius:
It's possible to summarize or to abstract too strongly to the point where essential details get left out, and that's what I think is defective in both of these two formulations.
I am a big fan of outlining and I love to do it, but part of the trick of doing it right is to distill the elements down to the essentials without cutting too much, or without cutting too little.
Also note that you must click directly on the pointer icon and not the full text of each line.
Thanks! I see that clicking on the tiny pointer icon is the magic key to getting the outline to unfold.
I think it would be a great project for anyone (and many people) to organize their Epicurean research and produce public "live" outlines that can be viewed at varying levels.
I will definitely see what I can do, and will be a matter of finding the right app for that 
Notes from Episode 145 - The Philosophy of Epicurus by Norman DeWitt -- Chapter 1 -- the Synoptic View of Epicureanism (Part 1)
(Revised version 10/30/22)
0:30 -- This podcast is an attempt to provide a more general perspective for the generalist listener/reader who does not have a lot of background, and this will be based on the organizational plan used by DeWitt.
2:12 -- The book preface states DeWitt's purpose of writing this book:
1. To organize surviving data into a biographical sketch of Epicurus to show throw some light on the growth of his personality and the development of his philosophy.
2. To give a new interpretation based on less amended, less revised remains of Epicurus' writings.
3. To bring attention to Epicureanism as a bridge of transition from classical philosophies of Greece to the Christian religion. (which is not part of the goal of this podcast).
4:40 -- Epicurus as the most revered and the most reviled of all founders of thought in Greco-Roman world.
5:24 -- Most revered and how Epicureanism spread and flourished
6:27 -- Epicurus differed significantly from Plato as to his ideal forms, and Epicurus comes along and brings up a much different approach philosophy, and interest in Epicureanism spread to all corners of the known world.
8:05 -- He was reviled -- Jewish scholars applied the word "epikoros" (heretic).
10:45 - Now online you can read things about Epicureanism and the uncontroversial goal of how best to live happily -- so it seems Epicurus should be held in high regard. Why would there be any problem at all?
11:28 - Stoics, Christians, and Orthodox Jews, and others saw some something deeper and more threatening in the Epicurean rejection of Platonism, the rejection of idealism of forms, and the rejection of a supernational creator that started the universe in motion and providentially attends to it, as well as the shift from absolute morality to contextual morality. So Epicureanism contains explosively devisive ideas then (and now) and could get you exiled from your community.
14:05 - Epicurean philosophy actually constitues a complete restructuring of the mental framework of how we should think about the most funatmental things -- everything from nature itself, to human societies, to the nature of the gods -- this is a radical reformation of thought at the time, and it's mostly because of that that we have this interesting dicotomy between the people who love what he is doing, like Lucian, and the people who hate him as much as they hate anything (that would be Alexander in this case).
15:02 -- A reform movement -- Epicurus realized what he was doing and was writing letters, articles and books -- writing against other philosophers and as campaigner for his own views. So there was this missionary/evangelization aspect and a number Epicureans were engaged in spreading their views and being pampleteers -- engaging in spreading their message to correct improper beliefs about supernatural gods, incorrect views about life after death, and expressing new views about how to live life as a whole.
16:45 -- A Synopotic View of Epicureanism -- using the analogy of Henry David Thoreau's looking glass story as a clear way of expressing what a synopotic view is -- seeing things together and seeing them in their proper relations to one another.
19:00 -- This way of seeing things is important to Epicurus and we see this in the Letter to Herodotus, that we should use outlines so that we can know what the important points are and understand how things fit together.
20:15 -- DeWitt is supplying a broad outline, and over time will add things in to fill in the details. This is similar to building a robot -- starting out with a skelleton and then add things on top of it. You can't see the forest if you stand six inches from a tree -- so we will start out with looking at the big picture, and then add in more details around what the important points are. We will attempt to provide an overall general perspective on Epicurus.
23:35 -- DeWitt says it is important to establish an attitude toward a particular subject. For example: The correct attitude to be taken with regard to the gods, how they are not to be feared, and the reason why not to fear them -- if a disciple could maintain this attitude it was felt that he would be rightly disposed to receive subsequent instruction about the nature of the gods.
25:53 -- So the attitude you take at the outset is going to color the way that you (or readers) interpret the subject matter. You can notice if a particular writer is hostile or not Epicureanism.
27:27 -- Something about pleasure -- Epicurus is tagged with immediate pleasure. There is much less coverage of Greek philosophy in schools and often a younger person knows nothing of Epicurus.
28:20 -- The people who do somehow look up about Epicurus on the Wikipedia page will end up reading that Epicurus and his followers were known for eating simple meals and discussing a wide range of philosophical subjects, and the goal of philosophy was to attain ataraxia and aponia, and live in tranquility and self-sufficiency surrounded by friends. All of this was obvious and inoffensive. Who doesn't want happiness and freedom from the fear of death, and it seems like those are such general goals, unbelievable that anybody would ever have anything to say against Epicurus.
29:25 -- Development of the philosophy went beyond the set of philosophies that were taught at that time. It went beyond beliefs of supernatural gods who intervened and beyond fate and a deterministic aspect of life in which you were fated to have a particular result or the gods would intervene, as if all these assertions were true. And Epicurus was examining the foundations of these philosophies.
31:53 -- It matters where you start -- that the first step is going to make a difference. On the EpicureanFriends forum, this book has been recommended for a very long time.
33:00 -- Otherwise we might jump in at the same place that Wikipedia jumps in: the goal of life is pleasure, the highest pleasure is absence of pain -- and this would be in isolation with the rest of the philosophy.
33:40 -- Even today the commentary that we read about Epicurus is largely written by people who do not agree with some of the major aspects of Epicurus' philosophy, especially the morality, because they say that we have to pursue the good (virtue) as the ultimate goal. But we don't really know what it means to pursue the good. We don't know what the good (virtue, or the will of god) is because these are generalities that are not a given -- that have no meaning or have no ability of being defined in the real world, through the evidence of the senses and the logical approaches that Epicurus was pursuing.
34:50 -- Epicurus becomes the best guide of going back to nature for the answers - not nature as created by a supernatural god or nature with ideas floating around (ideas about virtue that existed from the beginning of time). So it is important to understand the revolutionary nature of Epicurus' philosophy.
35:30 -- Chain arguments, deductive reasoning, if this then that - general to the particular. (observation, evidence, observation). Canonics - test of truth -five senses, anticipations and the feelings as the basis of everying. Observation by the eyes doesn't tell you what it is you are observing.
37:20 -- DeWitt -- all sensations are true or not -- various meanings to all sensations are true. Epicurus never declared sensations to be only source of knowledge. Our interpretations of sensations are not necessarily trustworthy. So like a witness testifying in a case - all sensations are reported honestly but because of distortions may not be the clearest view and take further observations before you come to a conclusion about what actually is true - weighing the evidence is a different process than gathering the evidence.
41:35 -- Philodemous talks about Epicureans in his time taking the synoptic view as good enough and just moving on. and not filling in the details. We need to take the whole thing in view and have a necesary education in the broader context, and then continue to study deeper.
43:20 -- Epicurus did a broad study of nature, but also the study of human nature. And it is important to understand your own thought processes and your own sensations, your own sense organs -- in order to use them successfully -- and also the way our mind operates.
45:40 -- DeWitt has attemped to provide almost a textbook of basic positions of Epicurus - perspective, structure, and sweeping background.
46:06 -- This philosophy is meant to be helpful on life decisions. Vain is the philosophy which does not provide for the health of the soul
49:08 -- Practical use of Epicurean philosophy that is useful for regular people.
50:02 -- Largely accurate, but Cicero and others were writing to refute Epicurus.
51:45-- Synoptic view is no substitue for the details -- but details are no substitute for the outlines. You need a foundation of course, but must take the final step to apply and impliment what you are studying -- the map is not the territory.
54:25 -- general assessment of your life and happiness, taking in an overview -- higher viewpoint understanding your place in nature and come to a feeling of tranquility and calmness.
This is all very interesting, however as I saw Don's post above about Second Life and how to purchase land in that virtual platform, it came to me that this isn't the same as actually having a physical headquarters -- such as forming a non-profit, renting office space, and having weekly/monthly meetings. So reading this thread brings up further ideas (because I think online gaming or virtual reality is not a good place for spreading Epicureanism).
Some possible ideas for moving forward:
1. Clarify and organize Epicurean philosophy into a system and format which can clearly and easily be taught (books, courses, pamplets).
2. Offer well organized online courses
3. Outreach to atheist groups, attend atheist events to network, and hand out pamplets
4. Find enough supporters through outreach who get "on board" and then form a non-profit
5. Find a good location to start a physical headquarters (near a college?)
Hi Everyone! This next Wednesday we are starting a new format of discussion at our weekly Zoom meeting. After some some back and forth reconsidering what night to have the meeting, and have now decided to stay with Wednesday evenings at 8:30pm ET. New attendees are encouraged to join!
Each week we will open up discussion on topics discussed in the preceeding Lucretius Today podcast. We hope you might get a chance to listen to the podcast ahead of time, but we will also make it possible for anyone to join in the discussion even if you have not listened to the podcast.
On Nov. 2nd, we will discuss Episode 145. Here is the link to the discussion thread which contains the audio recording:
The goal of this new discussion group, as explained in a recent post by Cassius:
The main purpose of this change is to allow us to get more traction on the joint "project" that the Lucretius Today podcast represents. Now that we are going through DeWitt's "Epicurus And His Philosophy," what we are really in the progress of producing in the podcast is an up-to-date series of media presentations of the basic elements of Epicurean Philosophy. We will eventually put versions of this on youtube and it should become a major resource for outreach to newer students of Epicurus.
This is an important project and we need all the help we can get to produce a quality product. By discussing the topics on Thursday, in a wider group setting that is not recorded, we can produce new notes for the episode thread and even decide if they are additional points that need to be covered before we move forward.
Like Lucretius and Diogenes of Oinoanda, if we really take Epicurean philosophy to heart we need to find ways to share it with our circle of friends, and also find ways to widen that circle. Reviewing the podcast in the weeking discussion setting will help the podcasters sharpen their message and help us all work toward better material that we can share with others.
Please consider joining us in this effort.
Anyone who has previously attended will automatically be messaged the link.
New attendees are welcome. Please post your request to attend either here in this thread, or send a private forum message to me with your request.
Hope to see you there!
Happy Birthday Joshua! You are awesome! Wishing you a wonderful day!
Kalosyni's comment to the effect that a simple "atheist" perspective is not nearly sufficient as a full worldview. That's an important benefit that Epicurus can bring to people who know enough to reject supernatural religion, but who don't know where to go from there and think that Western philosophy offers them nothing.
I attended an atheist weekly "meetup" just a few times (before Covid hit) and it was mainly just socializing (but awkwardly) and drinking beer since the group met at a pub. Their activism was to have a banner hung in downtown Eugene at Christmastime, in competion with the Christians who hung up something like "Jesus is the reason for the season". The atheist banner was "Celebrate the Solstice" (if I remember correctly). It seemed that science and technology were common topics (not too much time actually talking about atheism).
At the very end of this podcast I said something about Epicureanism being halfway between atheism and agnostism, but I don't think that is really correct. It really is very different, and I think we need to keep talking about it until we get a better idea of the religious environment that Epicurus lived in (festivals were part of the social fabric of Greece), as compared to our current times of monotheism (our US money still says "In God We Trust"). We may be more free in some ways and less free in other ways. We hold a similar place as atheists, and yet we stand up for things (rather than just being anti-religious). In Epicureanism there are life-enhancing ideas worth sharing with others.
Cassius, at about 56:50, you say "There's nothing to fear about the absence of a supernatural god" -- which is a very interesting idea. Because I don't think it is said that way in Epicurean writings. If I remember correctly, it more about not fearing the gods (not fearing their wrath or punishment).
But I am glad you brought up this slightly different twist, because I think this type of fear which you mention is very valid. And I think that now in our current times there are many Christians that might feel too much fear at the thought that "God isn't protecting them from harm". The idea that God is not supernatural would be very disturbing (and very distasteful). So Christians may feel very disturbed by the Epicurean philosophical belief regarding the nature of god.
Martin that is so nice that they have such big bookcases with free books over there in Germany. I have seen something similar in Oregon, and now even in Georgia where I live, but they are always very small, often with the name "Little Free Library" (and here they often have mostly kids books).
Maybe the title of the EF forum thread should be something more open, like:
"User Book Reviews and Free Book Exchange"
Then also people can post if they really enjoyed a book, or if it is free on archive.com.
This article tells a little about what NDEs are and the study of this phenomenon. Very good help toward our Epicurean understanding that death is nothing to be feared.
by Kristen French September 28, 2022
Excerpt:
“You don’t want to undermine the person’s lived experience,” Seth said. “If they experience flying through a tunnel of light, into a beautiful white open space, then that’s what they experience. But memories, things that minds do, like remember things and talk about them, depend on brain activity. No brain activity, no mental process. If somebody with no brain activity were able to experience something and remember it later, then pretty much everything we know about the brain, about science, about physics is wrong.”
While no single overarching explanation for the NDE has yet been established, neuroscientists have discovered a series of neurophysiological mechanisms that could, together, account for many aspects of the phenomenon. One hypothesis is that NDEs are produced by the release in the brain of a natural hallucinogen with neuroprotective properties.
Scientists haven’t assembled all the pieces to explain why brains in desperate throes generate feelings of peace and joy, ineffability, and the sense of being in the presence of something transcendent. “It’s always difficult for science to answer the big why questions,” Laureys said. Comas, of the Icloby Foundation, told me that by educating the public about near-death experiences, she and Melo hoped to “to eradicate the fear of death.” After all, she said, “The fear of death is the mother and father of all fears.” Who could argue with that? Scientific evidence says near-death experiences are directly linked to the workings of our brains. But evolution is a sly master. Perhaps our biology in its final hour is easing us gently into that good night.
#death #near-death-experience
This next Wednesday evening is canceled due to the 20th meeting occuring on the following evening, so please join us if you can on Thursday evening for our monthly 20th Zoom Gathering -- for community conversation and philosophy discussion.
On the following week, Wednesday, October 26th, we will continue with discussion of all the PD's on justice (PD 31thru 38).
So I guess I am saying I see the root of our attachment to life as being our love of it and our desire not to lose it. For this purpose I'm abstracting this life and any other life and giving them the benefit of the doubt that if someone loves "life" then they are open to seeing how short it is and how best to live it.
But for those who wish they had never been born or wish to cease to exist, and buy deeply into that argument, seems to me that's a much harder nut to crack.
I just posted about both getting help of a therapist and finding more meaning in life, in this thread:
Occassionally on this forum and on the podcasts the topic of suicide, and also chosing to end one's own life when terminally ill, etc. has come up. And I feel the need to bring up and share some "therapeutics".
Given that we believe that we only have this one life to live (no-rebirth, no second chance) this means that ending one's life is rarely ever chosen unless out of great necessity ( Cassius I know there are sources for this in Epicurean writings but can't remember off hand).
Ideally I would recommend someone should seek out the professional help of a therapist, to effectively remedy repeated or on going suicidal thoughts.
For those who may occassionally have milder moments of considering the meaning of life and only briefly encounter suicidal ideation, I would recommend this very good article, which also brings up good points to bring more meaning and fulfillment:
Quote from Don:
Starting around 1095b, Aristotle appears to stake his flag against pleasure as the Good:
“The common run of people and the most vulgar identify [the highest good] with pleasure, and for that reason are satisfied with a life of enjoyment…a life suitable to cattle.”
LOL! Oh, a life of enjoyment! Perish the thought!
He goes on to say that there are really three notable kinds of life:
- The life of enjoyment/pleasure
- The political life (remember, life in service to the polis)
- The contemplative life
Could we correctly say that Epicureanism actually combines:
a) a life of enjoyment/pleasure
-AND-
c) the contemplative life (contemplating the nature of things)
hygge according to Google search:
/ˈh(y)o͞oɡə,ˈho͝oɡə/
noun
a quality of coziness and comfortable conviviality that engenders a feeling of contentment or well-being (regarded as a defining characteristic of Danish culture).
"why not follow the Danish example and bring more hygge into your daily life?"
Also, this book which I need to see if my library has it:
And seems like since fall is here and winter coming soon, a good time for hygge