Posts by Kalosyni

Thank you EricR, your last thread helps clarify "egoist" and "egoism" -- as being the way of being which comes out of the internal subjective feeling of a given person.

Quote from EricR

I don't know what you mean by "the fullness of joy". But whatever it exactly is, the statement seems to indicate that one cannot experience it without other people. I have deep, satisfying, complete feeling experiences on my own all the time so I must differ on this point.

Okay, that is good to know, and reminds me that everyone has individual preferences and experiences, and so I need to be more careful before I assume a given level of social involvement as being best for everyone.

There are different levels of choices in life. There are simple everyday decisions that we can easily use our "gut" to decide, such as whether to cook beans or chicken for dinner. And many simple decisions don't cause much of a long-term impact.

But for big life decisions, it can require some decision making "calculus". And some big decisions can be very difficult to make when they are "hard choices" -- meaning that either one will greatly impact your life, but yet neither one seems better than the other (both are on par).

The only way through is to ask yourself "Who do I want to be?" -- to see that each choice will create something new in your life. Then you commit to get behind that choice to become that person. (These ideas come from Ruth Chang, professor of jurisprudence at the University of Oxford).

I still think there is something useful about the "hedonic calculus"... Martin, you are really good with explaining "hedonic calculus" for big decisions, can you help out by adding in your explanation to this thread?

Quote from EricR

"And Mind entered the skull of Epicurus, the Goethe of antiquity -

"The meaning of Life is Life itself"...

The mind of Epicurus had made a tremendous discovery, the greatest that had ever been made - that the will-to-live and the will-to-pleasure are one. Whatever lives, lives for egoistic gratification."

I would add that "egoistic gratification" cannot come to the fullness of joy and will not be completely pleasurable unless we join together with others in friendship and savoring of life -- we would then come to let go of a hyper self-focused individualism, and would learn that the mutual consideration of others within a community leads to the greatest ease and enjoyment in life -- and come to see that other's needs are equally important as our own -- the greatest pleasure arises when we interdependently "feed" each other -- but this depends on the safety and trust in a private community kepos. (This is just a vision I see of a well-established Epicurean philosophy garden).

Quote from Don

The gods provide no reason to fear them... because they're not motivated by anger or gratitude.

Death is to be approached with no suspicion... because we don't exist after we die.

The Good is easily obtained... because of the reasons laid out in various texts.

The Terrible is easily endured... because ditto.

The first two are easy (in my mind) but the last two are difficult.

Are there threads that we can cross reference to the "the good is easily obtained" and "the terrible is easily endured"? At times it seems that these last two depend on using stoic "mind over matter"?

As I think of the future, my goal is to create some type of in person Epicurean philosophy group. Ideally this would take place at an "Epicurean Church" which would come into existence after a core group of people become dedicated toward making that a reality. Otherwise it will be a weekly meet-up type group, which would be held at coffeehouses or other public places.

I see a way to teach "mini-courses" which address common everyday issues, using and pointing back to wise sayings of the Principle Doctrines/Vatican Sayings, Diogenes Laertius book 10 regarding the wise man, and Cicero's Torquatus presentation on Epicurean teachings.

The mini-courses would be on such topics as the following:

1) Increasing daily pleasure

2) Reducing fear and worry

3) Eliminating superstitious thinking

4) Friendship 101 (could be a much longer course)

5) Choice and avoidance in decision making

6) Cultivating joy and the the attitude of savoring

7) Healthy diet and exercise for long-term self-sufficency

8 ) Dealing with death and mourning

9) Kepos - developing, maintaining, and enhancing community well-being (could be a much longer course)

10) Modern science and the scientific process

11) Living ethically

12) Enjoying nature

13) Ancient Epicurean canonics and epistemology

14) Ancient Epicurean physics

15) Study of ancient Epicurean texts (could be an on-going course)

16) Epicurean book study groups (on-going)

17) Party planning committee - information sharing festivals, annual symposium, weekly potlucks, monthy 20th celebration, and other planning (on-going)

If anyone has any other ideas, comments, or questions, please share.

Also, if anyone would like to help create this and feels that their city would be a good place for an "Epicurean Church", then please let me know, since I am looking to relocate to any place that is more likely to support a real kepos. We would start with meet-ups and then see where we can go from there.

Yes, a warning, and perhaps remove it altogether, because it appears to suggest a selfish and immature stance in regard to romantic relationships.

I just read the first few pages and must say: THIS IS INCORRECT for a number of reasons:

A modern marriage won't last if it is just based on sex. The article doesn't define the word "love" and in the way it is used it appears to mean "naive lust". It doesn't take into consideration that people marry for companionship. After the sex drive inevitably cools down a bit, then hopefully you have found yourself someone who is a "partner in fun", meaning someone with whom you can enjoy fun things and the simple pleasures of life together. Unfortunately the modern world is so individualized and compartmentalized that only the extremely extroverted people can manage to live happily without being married (because their extroverted nature helps them have a wide range of friends so that they are never lonely). So marriage for introverted quiet people is important for the simple sake of friendship.

Further thoughts on "post-philosophy"...

If we can't or don't want to agree on exact definitions of words (because of several reasons) then how do we do philosophy?

1) We can't agree because certain words themselves are too abstract, and to give an exact definition will mean that we are no longer "doing philosophy" and instead we are now in the realm of psychology/self-help...which personally I am okay with that. But there will not be one "right way"...and I am okay with that too.

2) If we want to agree on one definition that will force us into trying to find the "right" answer or one "right" formula. Do we really think that there is always one right answer to everything?

So I would suggest that the best way out of this conundrum is to accept that we need to move toward a more open-ended way of approaching the world. This is not skepticm, because we can say given the assertion A... then if you do B or if you do C, then there is a likelihood that W, X, Y, or Z will result. The results are not infinite. They are dependent on the inputs. We can be certain that something will result from our actions, and there may be a higher likelihood of one result over the other, but sometimes we won't be able to know until we take action (so you have to choose based purely on which option has the greatest anticipated pleasure without depending on reason). In Buddhism there is a phrase called "skillful means" and we can learn from our previous experiences. You could then analyze backward and ask: "When do the best results happen? What causes the best results in decision making?"

On the flip side of what I just said about there not being one right way...is that as Epicureans we could take specific stands on things, as to which things in life bring the best pleasure and as well as the most pleasure over the longest time...so that would be: don't do such and such, but instead do X Y Z.

Regarding the telos, etc. So certain philosophers wanted to have things so neat and tidy...did Epicurus want things neat and tidy too? (or was this just a tactic of the opposing schools to say Epicurus' ideas were "not right").

Or because he was basing his thinking on the material world did he then see a messy quality to the world?

My questions here could be due to a "post-philosophical" way of thinking...going beyond "cooking with a set recipe" to "using the ingredients on hand" so basically that would mean that sometimes wisdom is a primary tool for making choices and other times pleasure works best as the primary tool for making choices... and sometimes both wisdom and pleasure at the same time. And as for defining the abstractions of good, highest good, pleasure, etc.... If we are forced to set aside "black and white" thinking...then we use "shades of gray...meaning that we must always base things in observable specific situations. There won't be one rule or correct way that can be referred to...so that means that sometimes we don't choose the immediate pleasure at hand, but instead wait for a future pleasure which will be much more fullfilling. But we must see that we are all "cooking without a recipe and using what we have on hand" as we navigate through life.

Quote from Cassius

whatever the electro-chemical process is by which or minds recognize pleasure, that electro-chemical process likely functions in the same way for all pleasures. So in that sense the way in which we perceive pleasures internally likely IS pretty much the same for all pleasures

I'm not sure we perceive all pleasures in the same way...because of the mix of seretonin, dopamine, endorphines, oxytocin, and they each act differently within the brain. So for peak happiness it would be good to pursue activities that trigger each of these chemicals. So just like there are "four food groups" that we should eat from for good health. Then there are these "four brain health groups" that give optimum happiness.

This is a good article:

I just found this paper which may be helpful...feeling too tired to read it tonight, but could be helpful in this discussion thread...

"Cicero as a Source for Epicurus"

by Kyle Tebo

Quote from Don

There *is* a single answer for everyone's telos/summum bonum: The "greatest good" for everyone is pleasure.

I don't think that there is one summum bonum for everyone. For some people God is the summum bonum within Christianity and religions (except Buddhism).

Quote from Godfrey

"the greatest good" is more of a philosophical argument carried on by others. In a materialist universe is it even possible to define a greatest good? For Epicurus I think that it's a functional guide as described in the Canon.

Quote from Cassius

Another way of stating the issue:

If you are going to ask the question "What is the greatest good?" The answer is "pleasure."

But you also have to consider "Should you be asking that question?"

I don't think that trying to prove one type of a "greatest good" as being the best will ever be possible, because it is like saying mashed potatoes are better than baked potatoes. They are both ways to satiate hunger, and some people will prefer the taste of mashed potatoes over baked potatoes.

We have a hunger for happiness. But if nothing seems to satisfy us anymore and mild depression takes hold or mild substance abuse causes health problems, then we need some remedies. (btw...severe cases of these should seek professional help).

God may work as a remedy for some, but for those of us for whom "God is dead" we need something else to focus on as our goal and our summum bonum. Also, the abstract idea of finding perfect flourishing as a summun bonum won't work when circumstances within any human life are so messy...we still must live even when we struggle to meet basic human needs of belonging and acceptance. So Epicureanism provides a way to live and seek happiness when "flourishing" is impossible. We don't have to wait till we are flourishing to be happy...we can seek pleasure right away.

Happy Valentine's Day everyone!

Epicurean wisdom is to enjoy pleasures which do not result in an excess of pain, but to pursue those things which produce more pleasures in the long run. Perhaps then we must use the virtue of love to create pleasure, for it is a pleasure and a joy to love, and to love one's own beloved and to love one's friends.

As an aside...here is a link to "Carte de Tendre"...a 1654 French "map of love", showing the many dangers that can befall the path of romance.

Map of Tendre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

A wise person will make good choices and will be able to enjoy love and loving with less pain than an unwise person who rushes in too quickly.

It is important to note that Epicurus wrote a book on "Love" and it is listed in third place in Diogenes Laertius book 10...and also a book on "Touch" (much further down on the list)...we can only guess, since these were lost.

Quote

Such then, so numerous are the works of Epicurus; the chief of which are the following:

• thirty-seven treatises on Natural Philosophy;
• one on Atoms and the Void;
• one on Love;
• an abridgment of the Arguments employed against the Natural Philosophers;
• one against the Doctrines of the Megarians;
• Problems;
• Fundamental Propositions;
• a treatise on Choice and Avoidance;
• another on the Chief Good;
• another on the Criterion, called also the Canon;
• Chaeredemus, a treatise on the Gods;
• one on Piety;
• [28] G   Hegesianax
• four essays on Lives;
• one on Just Dealing;
• Neocles;
• one essay addressed to Themista;
• the Banquet;
• Eurylochus;
• one essay addressed to Metrodorus;
• one on Seeing;
• one on the Angle in an Atom;
• one on Touch;
• one on Fate;
• Opinions on the Passions;
• one treatise addressed to Timocrates;
• Prognostics;
• Exhortations;
• a treatise on Images;
• one on Perceptions;
• Aristobulus;
• an essay on Music;
• one on Justice and the other Virtues;
• one on Gifts and Gratitude;
• Polymedes;
• Timocrates, a treatise in three books;
• Metrodorus, in five books;
• Antidorus, in two books;
• Opinions about Diseases, addressed to Mithras;
• Callistolas;
• an essay on Kingly Power;
• Anaximenes;
• Letters.

Since pleasure is our guide, we can know the right path to take by paying attention.

May you love with pleasure, joy, and prudence!

Happy Birthday SimonC !!!

May you be filled with many blessings of pleasure and joy!

I find this thread discussion to be very enjoyable, and important for a correct understanding of Epicureanism. Without thoroughly understanding these issues it will be difficult to begin to create local Epicurean groups. Also, for reasons that come up in Smoothiekiwi post...

Quote from smoothiekiwi

....biggest problem is to accept that there isn't any sort of abstract ideas flying around- universal norms and ideas. Platonism is so deeply anchored in our society that it's incredibly difficult to let it go....dogmas, absolute "right and wrong"-s etc. Just today, I had a discussion with my brother, who postulated that it's in the nature of each and every person to become better.

Epicureanism exists with it's unique principles and paradigms in the midst of all previous philosophical constructs, and part of the work is sifting through it all to become very clear about what Epicureanism is.

I think it will be difficult to establish local groups. A person must be predisposed to certain traits or habits or predispositions in order to be interested in Epicureanism...and I think that in our given times few people will be drawn toward Epicureanism...but does that mean we should give up? I am still moving forward with hope on this, that it will be possible. And this brings up the question of what sorts of traits/habits/predispositions must be present for a person to be interested in engaging with Epicurean philosophy? (a separate thread for this?).

In the few most recent posts in this thread are important Epicurean ideas, and these ideas need to be collected and put into small books (or zines) which we can give to people that we think possess the traits required for Epicurean philosophy.

Another idea comes up -- the need for "levels" within Epicureanism (a separate thread for this?)

1) "Epicureanism lite" - for people with less time or inclination to study

2) "Epicureanism engaged" - for people who want to put in serious study

3) "Epicurean guardians and guides" - for people who want to maintain the accuracy of the teachings and teach others

Quote from Cassius

I have always realized that the word "happiness" and even "pleasure" to a degree are conceptual abstractions. The word 'happiness' almost definitely is so, and we find "happiness" being used in totally different ways by different people, so much so that it takes fairly elaborate definition-building to be clear what we're talking about.

This is very important to think about. Happiness is always about a "story" that you are telling yourself. And it includes stories about the past and about the future, as well as the present moment. In Epicureanism, it includes ideas about the best way to bring about a happy life, and think we would all be on the same page to say that we know it can't be found in material possessions. But the "stories" we tell ourselve about our level(s) of happiness, are based on experiences that have a feeling tone of either generally pleasureable or generally painful. Of course life is a mix of feelings, but as Epicureans we hold to a goal of mainly pleasureable experiences which we would then label as "happiness".

This morning as I write this, I notice...Oh what a difference a solid good night of sleep makes! As well as a sunny morning with crystal blue skies! But there is still more than these simple pleasures to discover and cultivate in Epicureanism.

Everyone's comments here are so helpful, and for myself I will continue to contemplate these issues of pleasure, pain, happiness, and virtue.

I just found this interesting article...which says: "Take sleep problems seriously" as poor sleep quality could lead to future depression:

Quote

Take sleep problems seriously.

You should tell your doctor if you:

• have trouble falling or staying asleep
• feel tired during the day
• have physical pain, discomfort or other complaints (for instance, signs of obstructive sleep apnea or pauses in breathing at night) that prevent you from getting a good night’s sleep

Treatments such as cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia and continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) devices for apnea can restore good sleep, helping you sidestep related conditions like depression. (People with sleep apnea have a fivefold higher risk of depression.)

Depression and Sleep: Understanding the Connection

People with insomnia have a higher risk of depression. On the other hand, depression can trigger sleep problems. Knowing the connection between depression and…

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

I am trying to "unpack" Aristotle's perfectionistic and absolutist way of thinking, because I was raised in Christianity which has been a continued source of this kind of thinking (and may have left-over "brain-wiring" from that).

Modern English would use different words in some instances. I think what I find unnerving is the labeling and the use of judging which doesn't take into account the specific situation. Also, it doesn't take into account the "feeling" of things. For example: fear is judged as a defect, yet fear is a normal emotion which helps keep us alive, and we feel it very viscerally when our life is in danger. Yet, in marches the concept of "courage" to convince us that it is good to risk our lives for some abstract ideals that someone else has convinced us is correct. So these ideals can be used to manipulate people. I would like to suggest that an Epicurean would rarely need to force the virtue of courage, even when it is for the sake of pleasure, because they would very rarely take on something risky (but I may have differing beliefs on this than others here on the forum).

I made this table based on the Nicomachean Ethics source provided above by Eikadistes. I left some boxes empty due to not being listed in the source.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

A toxic environment is far, far worse for a child than a divorce.

Yes I agree. If it sounded as if I thought differently, then it was probably due to my poor writing skills which made it confusing, and apologize for that. Divorce would most likely be best in cases of physical or mental abuse, substance abuse or addiction, and anger management issues. If these aren't present, and one has children, then staying together may be okay.

Quote from Cassius

It's probably true that in some significant number of cases an unhappy marriage can be hidden from the children so that they are not as affected as they would be by divorce. I would dress "sometimes" and that we have another situation where it depends on details and "always" isn't going to apply.

I have a old out-of-state friend, who a while back, told me that he is staying in a unhappy and sexless marriage because he says he doesn't want another man becoming a step-father to his daughter and raising her. It is his second marriage and he became a father later in life...I also suspect that he may think that it would take too much effort to divorce and try to find a new partner later in life...as well as deal with the financial hardship that would come with divorce.

First of all you must trust your own sense of bodily feeling, for if you disregard what you feel, how will you know what you should do? (What is the Epicurean saying on this?)

So then the question is: How does your body feel? If your body feels okay then no problem.

But if the body feels bad...then over the long term, feelings of tireness in the body are going to have detrimental health affects. And I have researched this...there are some studies that say poor sleep quality affects brain health.

Every person will have their unique situation to deal with...

Here are some possible causes:

1) Noisy sleep environment, uncomfortable bed/room temperature, or too much ambient room light during the night

2) Emotional worries over problems, life decisions, or unfinished work

3) Napping during the day - this perpetuates the night time sleep problems

4) Going to bed too early or having inconsistent bedtimes

5) Too much blue light from computer screens or tv screens in the evening hours

6) Not getting adequate bodily movement (exercise)

I have quite a bit of experience with sleep deprivation. For myself: generally one or two nights of poor sleep are okay for me, if they are then followed by a few nights of better sleep...as long as my body can recover. But when longer stretches of poor sleep occur, I notice that it is harder for me to want to exercise and I all eat more calories due to carb cravings. For me it can be environmental noise which wakes me, or emotional stress wakes me sometimes when nights are quiet. Then when it is a combination of these two problems it can be a real problem. I once went through a two week stretch of poor sleep...and my body felt very ill from lack of sleep.

Human beings were originally hunters and gatherers on the move and at some point the psyche might benefit from moving to a new environment. One way to deal with this without actually moving is to rearrange the bedroom layout and to see in what ways it can be made to be more cozy (and also the entire house to remove clutter and improve comfort).

I've read that there shouldn't be bookshelves or tv's (nor computers) in the bedroom -- it should be designed and maintained for sleep only, so no other activities (other than sex) should occur in the bedroom. Also that means it might be good to find a comfortable place other than the bedroom for middle of the night reading.

When awake in the middle of the night do relaxing things, sit still and breath calmly.

Eat a very small middle of the night snack - something with carbs - bread, cereal, or yogurt.

Journaling in the middle of the night can be a way to deal with worries over problems or unfinished work - write it all out and/or make lists - then close the notebook and say "Okay I can set this aside now since I've written it all out and can put it out of my mind. I take a vacation from it now. I will come back to it tomorrow."

After you set down your notebook... Do slow deep breathing while laying still in bed...that has a certain quality of a slow rise and fall (it has a sound quality of air flow which could be described as the sound of air when a child is slowly swinging up and down on a swing-set). In some cases even if you are awake, this kind of laying still in bed and deep breathing can be restorative.

Perhaps it is a litmus test for extravagant tastes that are never satisfied.

Vatican Sayings:

Quote from Cassius

In regard to what Kalosyni's comment on always looking for new restaurants being an indicator of marriage failure (kind of funny even to say that)

More specifically the personality trait of extoversion and "adventurism":

Quote

high extroversion can undermine relationships because it is associated with adventurism. A 2008 study by David Schmidt involving more than 13,000 participants in 46 countries found high extroversion to be “positively correlated with interest in short-term mating, unrestricted sociosexuality, having engaged in short-term mate poaching attempts, having succumbed to short-term poaching attempts of others, and lacking relationship exclusivity.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insigh…r-romantic-life