Pacatus, I did the test last night, and had somewhat different scores -- today was a better day -- and on that website (in post 13 above) it suggests taking the test every day for two weeks -- instead of registering I might just take a screenshot to hold onto my test result data.

@Root304 -- thank you for letting us know you are hoping to attend.

Quote from Root304

If there are any threads on where the group discourse is on the topic of Epicurean therapeutics, I'd like to try to read and prepare more for it!

I will see what I can gather and post in this thread soon.

My hope is that we reference Epicurean sources as a kind of basis for therapeutics, but of course we adopt it to our modern times.

As for meeting logistics: we'll create a unique Zoom meeting link, and send out that link by private message a few days beforehand.

If anyone else is interested, you can post in this thread, or private message.

Quote from Kalosyni

The main topic will be Epicurean Therapuetics: How might Epicureans deal with negative emotions. We will open up the discussion to a more intuitive approach while also remaining true to what we know of the extant Epicurean texts.

A slight change in the planned topic of discussion -- I want to let everyone know that it will still be Epicurean therapeutics -- but instead of "getting rid of something" -- I want to focus on adding in the good things -- so Epicurean philosophy meets positive psychology.

After-all it is going to be "happy hour"!

What: Epicurean Happy Hour Zoom meeting

When: December 2nd, 8pm Eastern Time

New members message me if you have questions about how to attend

Quote from Cassius

One of the topics that came up in our zoom discussion of 11/20/22 was how Emily Austin sets forth the "detective" question in chapter 3 of "Living for Pleasure." Part of the issue discussed there is whether the question of whether someone is happy should be answered "subjectively" or "objectively."

Here is a quiz on emotions felt in the previous 24 hours:

PositivityRatio.com - Self Test

On the topic of Positive Psychology, and this is different than Seligman (and much better imo) is this book: "Positivity" by Barbara Fedrickson:

PositivityRatio.com - Home

I own a copy, and need to reread it, to see if it has any "Epicurean" elements in it.

Here is a simpler version

Cassius, I just found this article you wrote back in 2010, which has good things to say about gratitude. Reposting, the following words are by Cassius from:

Gratitude As a Source of Strength During Times of Misfortune – NewEpicurean

If you are like me, you often hear friends say (or post to Facebook) that they “couldn’t go on if they did not have their faith in God to pull them through.” Is there an Epicurean equivalent to that sentiment? Let me suggest that the student of Epicureanism should consider Gratitude in much the same light as a means of support during unfortunate times.

To once again give credit for the inspiration for another post, please refer to Norman DeWitt’s 1937 article “The Epicurean Doctrine of Gratitude” for an excellent discussion of this concept. There DeWitt wrote that Epicurus instructed us to reflect on our gratitude to Nature for our present and past blessings, on our gratitude to those who guide us in the path of wisdom, and on our gratitude to our friends. In this way, gratitude preserves our youthfulness and serves as both an inalienable treasure and a healing medicine in time of misfortune.

DeWitt cites the following that is left to us from the Epicurean texts:

Gratitude to Nature:

Fragment 67 – “Gratitude must be vouchsafed to blessed Nature because she has made the essential things easy to procure and those things that are hard to procure non-essentials.”

Epicurus saw Nature as ready and willing to guide men in the path of wisdom: “We must not do violence to nature but obey her.” That Nature is a teacher is assumed in another passage: “She teaches us to regard as things of less moment the pranks of Fortune.” Again, when the body suffers, the soul cries out and Nature “passes the word along” that certain wants must be satisfied.

We should be mindful of our past blessings:

Letter to Menoeceus – “Wherefore, both when young and when old, a man must devote himself to philosophy, to the end that while he is growing old he may be young in blessings through gratitude for what has been.”

“The adage ‘Look to the end of a long life’ betrays a lack of gratitude for past blessings.”

“Forgetting the good that has been he has become an old man this very day.”

“The aged man has cast anchor in old age as in a haven, having locked securely in a grateful memory the recollection of previous blessings that he had no right to count upon.”

“One must heal his misfortunes by the grateful recollection of what has been and by recognizing that nothing can render undone what has been done.”

We should be thankful that Nature has given us the present, and not just for the possibilities of the future:

“The life that lacks wisdom is void of gratitude and filled with apprehension; its outlook is entirely toward the future.”

Gratitude to those who Guide us in the path of Wisdom

Our gratitude to those who guide us in the past of wisdom, most notably Epicurus himself, is well expressed in these words from Lucretius:

“O glory of the Greeks, the first to raise the shining light out of tremendous dark, illumining the blessings of our life – You are the one I follow. In your steps I tread, not as a rival, but for love of your example. Does the swallow vie with swans? Do wobbly-legged little goats compete in strength and speed with thoroughbreds?

You, father, found the truth; you gave to us a Father’s wisdom, and from every page, O most illustrious in renown, we take, as bees do from the flowery banks of summer, the benefit of all your golden words, the gold most worthy of eternal life.

For, once your reason, your divining sense, begins its proclamation, telling us the way things are, all terrors of the mind vanish, are gone; the barriers of the world dissolve before me, and I see things happen all through the void of empty space. I see the gods majestic, and their calm abodes winds do not shake, nor clouds befoul, nor snow violate with the knives of sleet and cold. But there the sky is purest blue, the air is almost laughter in that radiance, and nature satisfies their every need, and nothing, nothing, mars their calm of mind.

No realms of Hell are ever visible, But earth affords a view of everything, below and outward, all through space. I feel A more than mortal pleasure in all this, almost a shudder, since your power has given this revelation of all nature’s ways.”

Gratitude for our Friends

Principle Doctrine 27 – “Of the blessings that wisdom assembles for the happiness of the well-rounded life, by far the greatest is the possession of friendship.”

“The wise man alone will know gratitude, consistently speaking well of his friends, alike when they are present and when they are absent.”

“Friendship likewise has its beginnings in a calculation of needs; it is certainly necessary to take the preliminary steps, for we also plant seed in the ground, but it perfects itself through reciprocity of favors among those who have attained to the full enjoyment of pleasures.”

The Necessity of Incorporating Gratitude Into Our Reflections

To close with additional words from Lucretius:

Our terrors and our darknesses of mind must be dispelled,

Not by the sunshine’s rays, not by those shining arrows of the light,

But by insight into nature, and a scheme of systematic contemplation.

It would seem likely that among the things which students of Epicurus should include within that scheme of systematic contemplation, one of the most important for a healthy mind and attitude is Gratitude.

This brings up questions about the very structure of current civilization -- and since I am in the United States then this is my viewpoint based on American society.

Back in time, people were much more dependent on their families and their extended families. And that also meant that they had to "comply" with all the wishes that their parents asked of them, such as a son taking up the kind of work that his father thought was right for him, as well as only marrying according to the wishes of the parents.

Now we are much more independent and make choices individually in a much more self-sufficient manner, because we can generally survive without the help of our family of origin.

But because of this self-sufficiency, many people move to different parts of the country several times to change jobs. This means that new friends have to be made each time there is a move. And one's friends often move away as well. So friends are now somewhat "disposable" and maybe we don't get as close to people.

The other aspect is that everyone is busy working, and one's romantic partner takes precedence -- there is very little time left over to do much recreation, and spouses and partners have to prioritize time for romance rather than take time for making or maintaining friendships.

Thus in a busy world where there is not enough time, Facebook etc (and even this forum perhaps) takes on a role of connecting to others quickly and easily.

But I think we (here on the forum) do have ways to have deeper engagement, for established members can join Zoom discussions, and even though it isn't "in-person" there can be a quality of connection coming out of regular Zoom participation. So then this is something to consider: how attending regular Zoom can support friendships and community.

And also: we need to set up some Zoom meetings for new members to meet one another, maybe once a month.

Quote from Cassius

And by the way, the ultimate aim and description of the goal is not "the tranquil life." The proper wording is "the PLEASANT life."

And she knows that. The title of the book is not "Living For Tranquility."

Good to point that out. And thinking further about "unnecessary" desires -- I don't like that word "unnecessary" either, lol.

We don't label a desire as unnecessary until for a particular individual they see for themselves that it is so -- when they see that it brings more pain than pleasure, causes way too much pain to aquire it, or is impossible to aquire -- and this can only be determined by that individual AND at a later time that person may be in a different situation and decide to pursue that desire.

So in some sense "unnecessary" is really an artificial label used as a "coping mechanism" -- there are no absolutely unnecessary desires.

Do you think this is correct?

Labels shape how we think, and so I don't like the word extravagant one bit:

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

extravagant

adjective

ex·trav·a·gant ik-ˈstra-vi-gənt 

1 a : exceeding the limits of reason or necessity extravagant claims 
b : lacking in moderation, balance, and restraint extravagant praise 
c : extremely or excessively elaborate an extravagant display 
  2 : extremely or unreasonably high in price an extravagant purchase 
  3 a : spending much more than necessary has always been extravagant with her money 
b : profuse, lavish

All of this brings up for me the importance of not creating an exact list of what brings pleasure and what brings happiness -- because it will depend on the environment and culture that one is living in.

Metrodorus, as quoted in the book:

Quote

I hear from you that the movement of your flesh is abundantly disposed toward sexual intercourse. As long as you do not break the laws or disturb noble and settled customs or vex any of your neighbors or wear out your body or use up the things necessary for life, indulge yourself in any way you prefer. However, it is impossible not be constrained by some one of these things. For sex never profits, and one must be content if it does not harm.5

The idea that "sex never profits" is no longer true, as studies have shown it is good for the health of the body -- And there is birth control, and the consent movement.

I've barely started the book, and I am reading the chapters out of order... chapter 16 - the label of "extravagant desires" doesn't seem quite right to me.

Quote

Nevertheless, Epicurus thinks sexual pleasure and committed romantic relationships are natural, but unnecessary, desires (or so I argue). In the terms of this book, they are extravagant desires, and all extravagant desires can adorn the tranquil life if you do them right.

If you live in a location where everyone surrounding you is in a committed romantic relationship, then you will be the odd one out. If you live in a location where everyone is not in a committed relationship but you are, then you will be the odd one out in that situation. Your environment and the culture that surrounds you will affect you, as it does to any animal. What we need to be happy should not be labeled extravagant. But if we try to get something we want and can't achieve it after giving it a considerable effort, then we eventually say: okay I tried and move on to something else, or move to a different environment.

Quote from Pacatus

Easy fare makes bountiful fest,

and gratitude a Garden blest.

Oh this is great for a meal prayer!

And that gets me thinking about what might I like to compose for a meal prayer.

Finally something further came to me for this thread. A work in progress, and maybe more of a meditation rather than a prayer.

Epicurean Prayer for Self-guidance

May I remember to see the future as just as important as the present. May I remember that there is just this one life and to be fully present to it. May I trust that I will find solutions to all my challenges, and skillfully take actions to create my best life.

May I remember that actions of kindness, honesty, and patience especially when faced by challenges, are most likely to lead to better results for long-term happiness.

May I remember to seek out the help of trusted friends even when I think I am doing fine on my own. May I offer help to my trusted friends as an opportunity to strengthen the connection we share.

May I actively seek to find comfort and joy in daily moments of pleasant sensations. May I enjoy all the new things that I am learning about the world. May I remember to do the most important actions to live happily. (this last line, more to be added).

Quote from camotero

Well, the motivation behind this is teaching a kid (who's not going to be raised in a religious context, but lives in a religious immediate-society, and that is expected to hear about the commandments sooner or later)

Also, you want to teach the virtues as a tool that leads to a happy life.

It will really depend on the age of the child. And also I think the main issues are about teaching not to steal or lie -- and how to teach choices and avoidances that will lead to a happy life and good relationships with people. Once a child has an understanding of others and self, then gradually increasing the complexity of the why to not steal or lie.

About stealing, there is a very good phrasing that Buddhists use in their precepts: To not take what is not given.

Also in addition to not lying, they add in to not spread gossip, and so there is the understanding that doing certain things tend to cause problems in the future (so to do them is to cause yourself trouble, in addition to the harm it causes others and the loss of trust that will result).

So the 10 commandments don't adequately teach these nuances.

But if you think of ways that people cause harm, then you get:

1) to refrain from killing or injuring

2) to refrain from lying or spreading gossip

3) to refrain from taking what is not given

Then add in both of these:

The Golden Rule: Treat others the way you would want to be treated

The Platinum Rule: Treat others as they would want you to treat them

This a very good project. Brings up Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development, and I think I posted about this before (but don't remember for sure), Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development.

Quote

Kohlberg identified three distinct levels of moral reasoning: preconventional, conventional, and postconventional. Each level has two sub-stages.

People can only pass through these levels in the order listed. Each new stage replaces the reasoning typical of the earlier stage. Not everyone achieves all the stages. The 3 levels of moral reasoning include:

Level 1 - Preconventional morality

Preconventional morality is the first stage of moral development, and lasts until approximately age 9. At the preconventional level children don’t have a personal code of morality, and instead moral decisions are shaped by the standards of adults and the consequences of following or breaking their rules.

For example, if an action leads to punishment is must be bad, and if it leads to a reward is must be good.

Authority is outside the individual and children often make moral decisions based on the physical consequences of actions.

• Stage 1. Obedience and Punishment Orientation. The child/individual is good in order to avoid being punished. If a person is punished, they must have done wrong.

• Stage 2. Individualism and Exchange. At this stage, children recognize that there is not just one right view that is handed down by the authorities. Different individuals have different viewpoints.

Level 2 - Conventional morality

Conventional morality is the second stage of moral development, and is characterized by an acceptance of social rules concerning right and wrong. At the conventional level (most adolescents and adults), we begin to internalize the moral standards of valued adult role models.

Authority is internalized but not questioned, and reasoning is based on the norms of the group to which the person belongs.

A social system that stresses the responsibilities of relationships as well as social order is seen as desirable and must, therefore, influence our view of what is right and wrong.

• Stage 3. Good Interpersonal Relationships. The child/individual is good in order to be seen as being a good person by others. Therefore, answers relate to the approval of others.

• Stage 4. Maintaining the Social Order. The child/individual becomes aware of the wider rules of society, so judgments concern obeying the rules in order to uphold the law and to avoid guilt.

Level 3 - Postconventional morality

Postconventional morality is the third stage of moral development, and is characterized by an individuals’ understanding of universal ethical principles. These are abstract and ill-defined, but might include: the preservation of life at all costs, and the importance of human dignity.

Individual judgment is based on self-chosen principles, and moral reasoning is based on individual rights and justice. According to Kohlberg this level of moral reasoning is as far as most people get.

Only 10-15% are capable of the kind of abstract thinking necessary for stage 5 or 6 (post-conventional morality). That is to say, most people take their moral views from those around them and only a minority think through ethical principles for themselves.

• Stage 5. Social Contract and Individual Rights. The child/individual becomes aware that while rules/laws might exist for the good of the greatest number, there are times when they will work against the interest of particular individuals.

The issues are not always clear-cut. For example, in Heinz’s dilemma, the protection of life is more important than breaking the law against stealing.

• Stage 6. Universal Principles. People at this stage have developed their own set of moral guidelines which may or may not fit the law. The principles apply to everyone.

E.g., human rights, justice, and equality. The person will be prepared to act to defend these principles even if it means going against the rest of society in the process and having to pay the consequences of disapproval and or imprisonment. Kohlberg doubted few people reached this stage.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/kohlberg.html

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Understanding the morals of the Christian Ten Commandments would depend on the age of an individual -- a child would view the 10 Commandments with Level 1, Stage 1 and an adult would view them within Level 2 thinking.

Now I look over this and seems that Epicurean ethics would be at Level 3, Stage 5 -- so this is able to look at exceptions depending on unique circumstances.

Here is a kind of "vision board" for creative ideas about shaping the future of Epicurean philosophy. What might we want to share with others as being beneficial for people to study on a larger scale beyond this forum? --not with the goal to popularize it, but as a "study Epicurean philosophy to gain more happiness" movement for building a community of like-minded people.

I created the images for this collage using "text to image" in the Canva app (which why there is distortion on the faces, so best not to zoom in too closely).

So then looking at these pictures, what exactly are people studying and what is being taught? I think this could be a springboard to gaining clarity about what are the best aspects of Epicurean philosophy and how to go about teaching it.

Tonight at 8:30pm ET is our Wednesday night Zoom discussion, and we will be discussing this podcast, open to established members and podcast listeners. Here is our events calendar listing explaining more about it.

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/calendar/event/1872/

Notes on second half of podcast:

33:00 -- Is it legitimate to speculate about possiblities without any existing evidence of your own to consider those possiblities to be valid. Is it legitimate to think you could spend an eternity in heaven and bliss because you can't rule it out and you've never been there before.

How do you sort which claims can be evaluated reasonably and which claims can't.

Christopher Hitchens - Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - and those claims which are extraordinary but have not furnished extraordinary evidence should simply be dismissed, its not worth our time.

Thomas Jefferson and the doctrine of the Holy Trinity -- an idea has to be comprehensible before we can act upon it.

Good evidence, the nature of your evidence, the 5 senses anticipations and the feelings, as opposed to circumstantial reasoning, creating hypotheticals

35:30 -- DeWitt's importance of approaching what truth is, and how you've arrived at it (summary of what was just covered)

36:25 -- Epicurus was a man of action and not just thought. It was false to believe that Epicurus was a moral invalid, a pacifist, who taught retirement from and non-engagement with the world. The truth was that he was producing a philosophy with missionary aspects and had natural gifts of being a leader, an organizer, and a campaigner.
This was explained in "Philosophy for the Millions" essay by DeWitt

37:35 -- Joshua tells about philosophers in ancient Greece -- because philosophers are interested in the workings of nature, things that are going on in the sky, behind the scenes full attention and focus is on that so that when it comes to the real world and the things that people have to do to survive in the real world to get by, the philosophers are not adequate to the task -- many stories from the ancient world make this point -- they didn't really seem to focus on things that matter to most people

39:45 -- Many of his books were titled "Against" a particular idea or person which may be why he was considered combative

It seems from the very beginning that it was set up to be a school, it was intended to be an organized presentation of a reform movement

40:25 -- Epicurus' view about self interest -- it's false to say that Epicurus was a totally egoistic hedonist ruled solely by a narrow view of his own self interest, focused on the pleasure of the moment.

It was true that this was the first world philosophy that was acceptable to both Greeks and non-Greeks, and that Epicurus taught that we should make friends whenever possible. So it is not exclusively inward facing, but it was focused on the result of living a pleasurable life which cannot be obtained successfully in most cases unless you are to some extent engaged with the world around you -- emphasis on friendship and living among people who are your friends -- He was not an isolated thinker -- self-interest must be supported by action in the real world among your friends.

42:00 -- the false accusation that Epicurus was an "isolated thinker" doesn't go into how his followers were called "pigs in his heard" by his detractors. It was said that unlike other philosophical schools, no one was seen to leave the Epicurean school to join the other schools and so they were compared to becoming eunuchs. Scathing portrayal of Epicureans as being effeminate and lacking self-awareness in the hedonistic pursuit of pleasure, as being stupid, and poor citizens.

43:55 -- Ayn Rand, Objectivism, book: The Virtue of Selfishness -- false choice between the goal of should be for your own interest as opposed to other people's interests. Epicurus would condemn the idea that your own selfishness is the goal -- ultimate goal is pleasure and cannot achieve that if you put your own interests above others -- Epicurus says sometimes you are going to die for a friend. You are going to realize there is going to be a time for putting your interests first and a time for putting other people's interests first - the goal of living pleasurably

46:00 -- he said that to hold property in common showed a lack of trust among his members so that not to be done.

Establishing more friendship, broader support for pursuing pleasure.

47:50 -- Vatican Saying 43

48:25 -- Epicurus' relevance to the development of Christianity.
False to say that Epicurus was an enemy of all religion, what was true was that he had his own views of what was a proper religion, changing the emphasis from political virtues of the state to social virtues, how best to relate to other people. Applicable everywhere.

DeWitt's view stretches Epicurus' relationship to development of Christianity - sees commonalities where most of us would not see commonalities.

False opinion was that Epicurus was just an absolute atheist, dismissed the idea of talking about divinity.

50:25 -- Rather than raising citizen solders of the state, he was attempting to do something more personal and social that have reference to politics

51:00 -- Pictures of Epicurus in their house or on rings

52:00 -- page 8 DeWitt says: "Epicureanism served in the ancient world as a preparation of Christianity helping to bridge the gap between Greek intellectualism and a religious way of life..."

For more see DeWitt's book "Saint Paul and Epicurus" looks at different passages in the New Testament to see what relationship they could have to Epicureans.
This book may appeal to those who are coming from Christianity and looking to study Epicurus for the first time.

54:25 -- Lucian - two camps opposed to the oracle, the Christians and the Epicureans, for different reasons

55:10 -- Next week: we will turn attention to ancient Athens and the period in which Epicurus developed his philosophy and do a little bit of biographical background

56:55 -- Won't fully understand about happiness and pleasure without this background overview of where Epicurus was coming from