Quote from Godfrey

If I understand correctly, Kalosyni 's quote above is related to Don 's description of a background state of happy homeostasis.

Hmmm...I wasn't thinking about homestasis when I wrote my post earlier (and need to go back to see what Don said about that).

Is there a "recipe" for how to make happiness? (the following things are needed for happiness):

--Both physical and mental pleasures

--Assurance of security in the future (basic necessities and safety)

--Freedom from fear of death and God(s)

--Physical health

So...this means that pleasure is easier to get than happiness.

In fact, I was thinking that the Tetrapharmakos should be this:

Don't fear God

Don't worry about death

Pleasure in life is easy to experience

Pain in life can be endured through the addition of pleasure

Riffing on some ideas coming up after reading previous comments.

Happiness can be an internal story you are using to explain the meaning of the pleasures you are experiencing.

Yet, happiness is also considered a feeling -- when it is vicerally felt in the the body as an extention of relief or pleasure.

A happy life is assumed to be a life full of good experiences, and we would assume that there is a great number of pleasurable experiences (both physical and mental) that happen in a happy life.

Consider the following questions and any likely situations when these questions are asked:

"Are you happy?"

"Are you enjoying yourself?"

"Does this feel good?"

A happy life can still feel happy even when immediate pleasure isn't occuring, and I think that it really points to "happiness" being mostly an internal story about whether or not we are feeling pleased about the way our life is currently unfolding.

Is it true that: You can't have a happy life without pleasure, but you could can have pleasure even if you aren't having a happy life?

It seems that we need both pleasure and happiness.

We have this from Epicurean Philosophy:

"Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness." PD 52

And this PD can work as a visual definition of happiness.

(visual as in before the internal eyes)

I dance therefore I am.

Quote from waterholic

I had the fortune to live in a more traditional society with under-developed institutions. Fridendship there was necessary, all-consuming and omnipotent.Y

ou want to find a good dentist, parking spot, decent job, a cemetery plot, resolution to a business conflict, even a legal dispute - you simply need friends. And your friends know this. This means your daily routine is to collect and dish out favours.

That situaltion is very interesting (and I would wonder perhaps people were not very close friends). And doesn't sound very fun.

Here in the US when I lived in Oregon, I was part of a Buddhist Zen group. It was through knowing people there that I found a studio apartment (converted garage in a house). And a few other things with which I got help, just by mentioning my problem, people gave good suggestions. So being part of a religious community has a benefit, founded on mutual support arising from common religious beliefs, and others become a kind of second family. So I think it could have been somewhat like this for Epicureans back in the past.

Quote from waterholic

Even if we find the accurate description of what social dynamic Epicurus implied in his definition of friendship to conclude that it is an essential element of a pleasant life, chances are, that social dynamic is no longer replicable in modern times. There is still academic benefit in researching the meaning of friendship in antiquity.

I actually envision it to be very similar to what I experienced in the Buddhist community that I was a part of. The problem was that I came to realize that Buddhist philosophy didn't work anymore for me, so it didn't make sense for me to continue with the community.

The community had a core group who did much of the work of making things run efficiently (a board of directors, teachers, and Zen priests/trainees). And then two other levels of involvement which I would call intermediate/dedicated students. And then the newer students or occasional attendees. And there were times to study together and times to celebrate with community meals and movie nights.

Quote from Don

Well, it comes down to where you decide if you're going to trust the manuscript and use λεπτότητα "elegance" or whether you're going to correct the scribe like Bailey and Usener and substitute λιτότης "limit".

This got me wondering about the history of the manuscript, and I found this on Wikipedia:

Quote

There are many extant manuscripts of the Lives, although none of them are especially old, and they all descend from a common ancestor, because they all lack the end of Book VII.^[25] The three most useful manuscripts are known as B, P, and F. Manuscript B (Codex Borbonicus) dates from the 12th century, and is in the National Library of Naples.^[a] Manuscript P (Paris) is dated to the 11th/12th century, and is in the Bibliothèque nationale de France.^[27] Manuscript F (Florence) is dated to the 13th century, and is in the Laurentian Library.^[28] The titles for the individual biographies used in modern editions are absent from these earliest manuscripts, however they can be found inserted into the blank spaces and margins of manuscript P by a later hand.^[29]

There seem to have been some early Latin translations, but they no longer survive. A 10th-century work entitled Tractatus de dictis philosophorum shows some knowledge of Diogenes.^[30] Henry Aristippus, in the 12th century, is known to have translated at least some of the work into Latin, and in the 14th century an unknown author made use of a Latin translation for his De vita et moribus philosophorum^[30] (attributed erroneously to Walter Burley).

Diogenes Laertius - Wikipedia

Welcome to the forum Adrian

Wow, Don amazing investigation and translation work.

In an above post I quoted a Greer translation, and I should mention what Greer says in his prologue -- that he used the translations of others: Bailey, vod der Muehll, Usner, and Hicks, and that is it "not so much a translation as a paraphrase".

So we probably should be careful with "translations" like this?

VS63: "There is also a limit to frugality. The man unable to consider this suffers a similar end as the man who indulges in excess." --Eugene O'Connor

VS63: "There is also a limit in simple living. He who fails to heed this limit falls into an error as great as that of the man who gives way to extravagance." --Russel M. Greer

**********

I have (on loan from a friend) "The Essential Epicurus" by O'Connor.

And found "Letters, Principle Doctrines and Vatican Sayings: Epicurus" by Greer -- on Archive.com

********

The quote in post 58 above: "The tripartite brain is still a sound model in neurobiology".

I found this interesting article for people who want to dive into the details:

And for further commentary:

The "Triune brain" model is obsolete, what is the name of the model that replaces it?

The Triune brain model suggests our brains evolved adding more layers, a lizard brain, then a mammal brain, then a new human brain. As that's false, and the…

psychology.stackexchange.com

Ths interesting comment from the psychology.stackexchange:

Quote

There isn’t a new model, exactly, since as the poster stated, the brain doesn’t operate as a model and earlier versions of brain structures simply modify themselves to evolve— it’s one brain. Meaning, one’s “lizard brain” is actually just a mammalian brain now. The new model perhaps is The Human Brain? But given that the Triune model was most popularized by lawyers needing it for defense against emotional (irrational) behavior and psychologists adopted it for explanation of emotional dysregulation, then likely the best replacement is theory about emotion. Emotions are not well understood, and there are several theories about them, but the latest and most provocative development is the Theory of Constructed Emotion. See Barrett-Feldman et al.

Welcome to the forum ScottW

We are starting a monthly Friday Night Epicurean Happy Hour and it is open to new members. We haven't set a date yet, but you can read about it here.

Also, if you haven't already had a chance to listen to one of our podcasts, here is a good one to try.

Hi Everyone! We will be having our next Epicurean Happy Hour sometime soon, and if you are interested in attending please let us know here in this thread. It will be on a Friday night at 8pm ET (or 8:30pm ET depending on if we have folks on the west coast), some time in February. This meeting is open to all forum members and is especially geared toward Level 1 and new members. If we get at least two Level 1 members who are interested in attending, we will move forward and schedule a meeting.

If you are interested in attending or have any questions, please post here is this thread, thank you

Quote from Don

It seems to me they're using "anxiety" to mean several different things because the word attracts attention.

It looks like it is very important to define the words we use, otherwise it all gets very muddy.

Maybe for our purposes here in what we understand as Epicurean teachings, instead of anxiety we could use the word "worry"?

But then I wonder, should everyone try to live a worry-free life? Is it even possible? Would a worry-free life be worth living? What would you have to sacrifice to live completely worry-free?

Should questions like these remain a personal exploration, so there is no right or wrong or absolute answer that applies to everyone or to every time and place? Or is this a helpful line of discussion amongst friends? (Or is it making things more confusing than they need to be?)

Quote from Todd

There is basically no situation in which anxiety is more useful than a calm presence of mind.

An excerpt from a New York Times article has this to say:

"Having some anxiety — especially when faced with a stressful situation — isn’t necessarily bad and can actually be helpful, experts say."

The article goes on to say:

"The right amount of anxiety can improve performance."

"Anxiety is an uncomfortable emotion, often fueled by uncertainty. It can create intense, excessive and persistent worry and fear, not just about stressful events but also about everyday situations. There are usually physical symptoms too, like fast heart rate, muscle tension, rapid breathing, sweating and fatigue.

Too much anxiety can be debilitating. But a normal amount is meant to help keep us safe, experts say.

“The emotion of anxiety and the underlying physiological stress response evolved to protect us,” Wendy Suzuki, a neuroscientist and the author of “Good Anxiety,” said."

And this:

"A certain degree of anxiety can help people anticipate obstacles, remain cautious and stay organized, said Ellen Hendriksen, a clinical psychologist in Boston and the author of “How to Be Yourself: Quiet Your Inner Critic and Rise Above Social Anxiety.”

Read the full article here:

The Upside of Anxiety (Published 2022)

There are several benefits to having an internal alarm system, experts say.

www.nytimes.com

Welcome to the forum MaxImpala

As far as copyright goes on images, not sure if you modify something enough from the original, but even then there could still be copyright issues.

Quote from Cassius

I think the "militant look" combined with the leaping pig has some definite flair to it

I decided to go with something different for my profile. I haven't changed my profile picture in a long time, because it is hard to settle into one picture. I think I am going to try to stick with this one (and not keep trying more).

Nike, the Goddess of Victory holding up an image of Epicurus (unfortuately it got a bit blurry since I am not using a very good app).

It is a tiny Epicurus bust on the hat, but the image is a bit small/slightly blurry. I found the basic pig on the internet, and changed the color of the neck scarf, altered the smile, and added the hat pin.

Cassius most importantly that the whole thing began with the Humphries translation. As I was listening to an audio recording of Humphries translation book 1 today, I was shocked by it when it seemed to say: by the will of God, nothing comes from nothing. (book 1 passage 146)

Also starting in passage 102, it says "we do not know the nature of the soul" implying skeptism. The "we" is totally incorrect because it is talking about the misleading nature of others. And I see in other translations it uses "they".

I don't have a printed copy available to show the actual words of those two passages. Does anyone have that?

My current advice is to not trust Humphries translation.

Here is a series of articles from 2013, from The Guardian website. (I have not read these yet but they look good).

The website says: "Emma Woolerton wrote her PhD on Lucretius at Cambridge, where she taught for several years. She now works in London."

Part 1:

Lucretius, part 1: a poem to explain the entire world around us | Emma Woolerton

Emma Woolerton: How to believe: The subject of Lucretius's six-book poem De Rerum Natura was not war, love, myth or history – it was atomic physics

www.theguardian.com

Part 2:

Lucretius, part 2: all things are made of atoms | Emma Woolerton

Emma Woolerton: How to believe: In Lucretius's universe, there are atoms and there is void – completely empty space. Nothing else can be said to exist

www.theguardian.com

Part 3:

Lucretius, part 3: chaos and order | Emma Woolerton

Emma Woolerton: How to believe: The atomic swerve is a simple idea that explains both the existence of the world and our ability to act freely within it

www.theguardian.com

Part 4:

Lucretius, part 4: things fall apart | Emma Woolerton

Emma Woolerton: How to believe: A life too long lived is a misery in itself. When the body dies, the soul disperses as it is mortal like the world around us

www.theguardian.com

Part 5:

Lucretius, part 5: all perceptions are true | Emma Woolerton

Emma Woolerton: How to believe: Everything we see is made up of the infinite atoms that swirl about us. These perceptions are the basis of our certain…

www.theguardian.com

Part 6:

Lucretius, part 6: not designed for life | Emma Woolerton

Emma Woolerton: The final two books of the poem end with a grim picture of plague and war. His challenge to the reader is to look at suffering and be grateful…

www.theguardian.com

Part 7:

Lucretius, part 7: becoming a god | Emma Woolerton

Emma Woolerton: Lucretius's Epicurean philosophy doesn't deny gods' existence, only that they affect us. Instead, we must aim to be as them

www.theguardian.com

Part 8:

Lucretius, part 8: teachers and pupils | Emma Woolerton

Emma Woolerton: How to believe: Lucretius's didactic poetry addresses a single person but cajoles his readers to heed his lesson, as he learned from Epicurus

www.theguardian.com

Part 9:

Lucretius, part 9: the calculating poet | Emma Woolerton

Emma Woolerton: How to believe: Why did Lucretius choose to write in poetry? The answer lies in his evangelism for both Epicureanism and his own legacy

www.theguardian.com

Quote from Onenski

And when I notice that I have an extravagant one, I relax, because I see that I don't need it (though I'll enjoy it if I get it).

Yet...perhaps...this would be an evaluation after the fact of knowing that: 1) it isn't possible to get it, or 2) it will cause a great amount of pain without having any lasting benefit to long-term well-being or security -- In which case, for my own self, might simply label as "un-necessary".

Because it almost feels like, for me the word "extravagant" is for things that I wouldn't actually choose anyway -- for example: a chocolate cupcake covered in pink icing. However, I would not label a scoop of ice cream as extravagant, since there are several ice cream parlors in my area (and instead of buying a whole half gallon from the grocery store and keeping it my freezer, then I instead choose to buy a scoop at at time, maybe twice a month.)

Here is an interesting article on when you can see the new moon crescent, and in ancient times that would be the start of the month (and if I remember correctly the start of the day):

What's the youngest moon you can see with your eye alone? | Space | EarthSky

It has long been a sport for skywatchers to spot the youngest possible crescent moon after sunset, with the eye alone. What does it take to see a very young…

earthsky.org