Posts by Kalosyni

Just yesterday found this interesting article, which Don will likely appreciate (given that touches on the Greek words).

Here is an excerpt:

Quote

2Commentators have so far discussed the complex intertextual relationship between the epigram and similar poems, especially Catullus 13 (invitation of Fabullus)3 and the whole sub-genre of Latin invitation poems which seems to be inspired by the epigram. Others have focused on the poem’s implications for our understanding of the social interactions between client and patronus in Roman society of the first century BCE.4 Its content also invites comparison with a group of Hellenistic epigrams dealing with dinner-invitations, dinner-preparations or feasting. Less well noticed are the epic ramifications of the poem and the way they might further our interpretation of its content.5

3The poem’s tension rests on the contrast between the simple meal in a simple setting and the exquisite entertainment provided by faithful friends.

I got image from this site:

Archimedes - Double herm with portrait heads of Epicurus and Metrodorus

Quote from Don

Let's say my life is stable, comfortable, overall pleasurable with episodes now and again of pain.
Something happens and I have to defend my home and family from hostile forces... I'm now in a war.
My life is now unstable, dangerous, with an overall abundance of pain with small episodes of pleasure.
I am fighting a war to return peace and stability to my life so I can again have a life that is stable, comfortable, and has more pleasure than pain. I did not choose to fight this war, but I now have no choice but to engage in war.
My side wins the war. I can piece my life back together hopefully and find more pleasure than pain in my existence.

In my mind survival does not equal pleasure. Survival does not guarantee pleasure. Don's quote is applicable even in other situations -- For example, someone getting into a career requiring long stressful hours of work, and then transitioning into a different line of work which is less stressful.

The drive for survival is not the same as the pursuit of enjoyment in life. In survival we want to eliminate pain, in enjoyment we are adding in pleasure.

These are all nuances, and interesting to talk about.

Hi Everyone

Tonight at 8:30 EDT is our "Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom" meeting!

I am looking forward to presenting some "Epicurean" art and music, which you will be sure to enjoy! And anyone who has Epicurean-themed art, music, or even poetry is welcome to share as well.

Then following that first half of the hour, we will move on to discuss Principle Doctrine 2, and we will take lots of time to really dive in to it. I think it is a wise idea to pair pleasurable art, music, etc. with this particular Principle Doctrine -- pleasure in this very life, since we believe that there is no after-life and no reincarnation.

You can sign up at any time, up until the start of the meeting time. Hope to see you there

Quote from Cassius

view of the definition is the common one, yet to understand the philosophy we have to use the broader one that Epicurus was using

I believe that given some time I can solve this "problem"

Here is the definition of the word "pleasure" that comes up at the top of the page with a Google search:

noun

a feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment.

"she smiled with pleasure at being praised"

synonyms: happiness, delight, joy, gladness, rapture, glee, satisfaction, gratification, fulfillment, contentment, contentedness, enjoyment, amusement, delectation

adjective

used or intended for entertainment rather than business.

"pleasure boats"

verb

give sexual enjoyment or satisfaction to.

"tell me what will pleasure you"

Quote from Cassius

As usual I think we're basically at the same position. The interesting point that we can file away for the future is the extent to which illustrations like this are helpful in the "teaching" aspect of Epicurean philosophy. For the same reason that we discussed it we probably do need good examples of the point that only "pleasure" itself is ALWAYS a desirable feeling (because our nature presents itself to us that way.

That means everything else (even the **choice** to pursue a particular pleasure at a particular moment) has to be evaluated contextually.

And I don't think we are just playing with words. I think the clear articulation of these issues has to come before we can clearly understand it or express the point to others.

Cassius, I think you are opening it up to a wider vision which takes in account all of human history. If we come back to our present modern time, we now have democracy and it's accompanying military system. The common person doesn't consider these kinds of questions. As you have brought all this up, I find it to be helpful in that is has me thinking in a broader scope.

Generally I don't think much on the ethics of these issues, war, etc, etc. (I do often find that I feel a certain resistence to the very topic of "war"). And also, thank you Marco for bringing up this topic and posting the podcast.

For me, my main focus here on the forum is for simple choices in life. The Epicurean philosophy presents a way of paying attention to pleasure, and making enjoyment of life a meaningful and worthy focus -- because we believe that we have just this life and no after-life or reincarnation.

For myself, I still need to spend more time with "unpacking" words and ideas dealing with "pleasure", "enjoyment", "happiness", "joy", especially because now our current modern cultural understanding of the word "pleasure" is very narrow. It think it will also continue to be an issue for others as well.

Quote from Godfrey

Have we ever pinned down concrete definitions of happiness, joy and pleasure?

I think it would be a good idea to have definitions.

For now I see that this thread is causing me to think about the meaning of the word "pleasure" and how I understand it.

The "pleasure of relief" in my mind is not pleasure - it is just relief.

Pleasure is for bodily sensations.

Enjoyment is for mental sensations.

My mind is too tired tonight, and I want to come back to this tomorrow, because this thread brings up issues that I think are of primary importance.

Quote from Cassius

And in other cases happiness and joy can be the product of war, if under the circumstances war is necessary to obtain or preserve the peace.

Something about this statement doesn't sit with me well. But maybe it is right up there with: humans kill animals for food and eating them gives us life. The level of abstraction has missing pieces. It may take me several more days to ponder this.

Quote from Marco

Can you seek happiness and be full of joy when there is a war in Europe?

I have still been pondering this question. Also, because it applies to anything in life, as Cassius wrote: "Can you seek happiness and be full of joy when there is XXXX?"

Being that I live in the US, it feels like the war in Europe is very far away, and I do not personally know anyone affected by it. There have been many wars all through history, and also civil wars and coups in some places in third-world countries (which get much less attention).

Early on, my initial first reaction about what was happening in Ukraine was that I had to readjust my idea (my mental concept) of "world stability" - so observing this happen, the human mind has a way of evaluating the safety of the present moment and the anticipated future. If we feel safe then we can much more easily seek happiness. If we can trust that the world will still be safe then we can relax again.

For people who are directly affected by or living in areas of unrest, it would make more sense to be somber and pay attention, to what is happening, to stay alive. So in some sense happiness and joy are a product of peace. It would not be safe to spend too much time "seeking happiness" in an unsafe environment.

So now why are there those who are living in peace and safety unhappy?

Maybe they worry about war in an abstract sense, or they feel that any suffering in the world should not happen (the above podcast briefly brings up this idea).

There are also other things in life to worry about: one's own financial stabilty, job stability, or family stability. I think that is why it is important to work through one's personal issues with regard to worries in life. For without a sense of having one's basic needs met, it will be difficult to seek happiness.

The idea of "seeking happiness" also is something to investigate. In the podcast Wes Cecil says that we have a kind of "innate joy" or "native joy" that we can tape into. He gives the example of this joy with the image of two dogs playing and chasing each other - they are completely happy in their play. Also it is just paying attention to the good things in life, and the sweet things in life. So "seeking happiness" / "seeking joy" is easy to do -- provided that one's life is stable.

Seeing this photo gives me an idea that we could sell hoodies and t-shirts which say "EpicureanFriends.com" on the back side, and maybe it could have this logo I just made on the front --

-- and could also make with blue lettering instead of pink.

I found this podcast to be very good. He says: that if you are feeling pain of some kind then it will be difficult to feel joy (defined as your "native vitality") -- and this why Epicurus recommended the removal of pain. Very good points given with regard to Epicureanism. Also he said something along the lines: if you enjoy drinking, then drink as much as you want, but you really don't want to give yourself a hang-over. And other interesting points about why our culture looks down on the feeling of joy, while exulting hard work and stress in life.

Logistics for joining the upcoming May 18th Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom Meeting

This is an open meeting and we encourage new people to join us!

The Zoom meeting has a waiting room, and we will be admitting people into the Zoom meeting based on the following:

1) forum member names we recognize from previous Zoom meetings

2) first time attendees who are forum members and who have "registered" by messaging Cassius beforehand with your intended Zoom name.

3) first time attendees who have registered through Eventbrite (people from Facebook or anyone else who is not a forum member) -- https://www.eventbrite.com/e/epicurean-op…ts-335486799047

If you are a forum member you do not need to use Eventbrite, but please message Cassius beforehand with your Zoom name.

The Zoom link for the meeting is posted in our calendar -- clear here to go to the calendar page for this event.

Quote from Don

"Pleasure is not a four letter word"

Then it must be a three letter word!

Quote from Cassius

Maybe the biggest issue is that the nature of the world is that people thrive best in groups for protection and for happiness, and the need for that is at least as much today as in the ancient world.

Yes, this is especially important for people who are self-employed and/or live alone.

And also the most enjoyable time we have with others is with those with like-minded attitudes -- as possibly a greater likelihood of giving and receiving genuine empathy and encouragement.

Also, there is Covid, which has changed things, and there are less in-person meetings/events. I notice when I click on websites to see what is happening, and there are a certain number of businesses or events that haven't yet gotten back up and running again. And I see in the news that cases are going up again. In my own family several people dealing with a persistent cough. Hopefully it is all much more mild, and stays mild and easily recoverable.

Quote from Don

like church attendance at Bible Study and Youth Group and Fellowship Meeting and Wednesday Service

But I think as Epicureans -- there is no "guilting" for not attending -- we know that what ever we do is chosen for the fun and enjoyment of it. So there is never any obligation to do anything.

I still say we need an "Epicurean Happy Hour" meeting -- or an "Epicurean Fun Hour" -- maybe I will decide to start one up in the future.

Yes it was a good meeting!

I think we might need to decide on a maximum number of people, because having a fun interactive discussion will work best with, maybe, no more than 13 people (that means the facilitator plus 12 more = 13).

Not a problem, thanks for letting us know, I'll let Cassius know in case he hasn't seen this message yet.

reneliza Thank you for letting us know, and hope your schedule turns out favorable, as we look forward to meeting you

Hi Everyone,

Here are some important logistics for tonight's Zoom:

We will be admitting people into the Zoom meeting based on the following:

1) forum names we recognize from previous Zoom meetings

2) those who have registered from Eventbrite (people from Facebook or non-forum members)

3) or forum members who have "registered" by messaging Cassius beforehand with your intended Zoom name.

If you are a forum member you do not need to use Eventbrite, but please message Cassius beforehand with your Zoom name.

The Zoom link for the meeting is posted in our calendar:

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/calendar/event/1693/

Tonight we will begin with Principle Doctrine 1, if you are interested in reading various translations, check out Nate's compilation:

File

KURIAI DOXAI, a Compilation of Translations by Nathan H. Bartman (2021)

This compilation contains 150 years worth of English translations of the "Key Doctrines" of Epicurus.

Eikadistes

May 3, 2024 at 11:14 PM

Looking forward to seeing you tonight!