Posts by Kalosyni

So great see your experiment Don -- and just found this -- tried to copy and paste recipe but wasn't able to for some reason. Be sure to scroll down past the covid introduction. Also it has some odd historical facts about ancient rituals which come before the recipe (which needs more research) -- so you have to scroll down the page quite a ways -- but the end result looks beautiful paired with cheese and figs.

Bread for the Gods: Pharmakos Barley Cakes with Cheese and Figs

A pestilence is sweeping our land. The gods are pissed. It's time to take this situation into our own hands with an ancient Greek sacrifice. Be gone,…

tavolamediterranea.com

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“For my part I find no meaning which I can attach to what is termed good, if I take away from it the pleasures obtained by taste, if I take away the pleasures which come from listening to music, if I take away too the charm derived by the eyes from the sight of figures in movement, or other pleasures by any of the senses in the whole man. Nor indeed is it possible to make such a statement as this – that it is joy of the mind which is alone to be reckoned as a good; for I understand by a mind in a state of joy, that it is so, when it has the hope of all the pleasures I have named – that is to say the hope that nature will be free to enjoy them without any blending of pain.” And this much he says in the words I have quoted, so that anyone you please may realize what Epicurus understands by pleasure. (Cicero, Tusculan Disputations, III.18.41)

Cassius --It does seem to be listed, and maybe this is the only location?

Quote from Kalosyni

In other words the highest form of sensual pleasure (at it's height) will also be free from mental pain (we will be free from worry and fear).

Also, this has to do with a certain segment in time -- it isn't going to be at every moment of every day -- But rather it will unfold depending on a given situation. Ideally we will experience some parts of our day in this way -- we will have the experience of situations that feel very sweet and enjoyable.

Quote from Cassius

If "freedom from pain" amounts to the highest sensual pleasure, would you expect that "freedom from pain" or "freedom from disturbance" could just as easily have been listed among these (taste / sex / sound / dance) that Epicurus chose to list? If so, why? If not, why not?

Just to clarify -- I am not saying that when you don't feel pain that is exactly the same as pleasure. What I am saying is that if you have some pain mixed into your experience of sensuality then you are not yet experiencing the most pleasurable sensuality. The best experience of sensuality doesn't have pain mixed in to it.

I am basing this on contemplation of the experience of feeling in the body as it arises. So I don't have any direct Epicurean source for this idea.

But I believe that this is important to think about because I believe that this could be at the source of something getting lost in translation. The goal isn't a kind of "boring existence" of neutral feeling in the body which doesn't have pain and therefore qualifies as a state of pleasantness. But the goal is maximizing the sweetest sensations of pleasure by seeing that we haven't yet reached the "purest" feeling of pleasure if we are also still feeling pain in the body (over-indulgences) or the mind (anxiety/fear).

I don't think I expressed clearly enough in the podcast that removal of pain is the beginning or start of pleasure, and when the experience of pleasure has no mixed-in or co-existing feelings of pain then this is the pinnacle of pleasure and at this pinnacle we are living as the gods. In other words the highest form of sensual pleasure (at it's height) will also be free from mental pain (we will be free from worry and fear).

Here is an interesting link to diet in ancient Greece:

Ancient Recipe: Ptisane [Barley Water] (Greek, at least 5th century BCE)

“[Barley] groats belong to the wheat family. They have juice that is quite nourishing and tenacious.” ~ Aelius Galenus (Galen), De alimentorum facultatibus (On…

passtheflamingo.com

Quote from Don

Best of all for mortal beings is never to have been born at all

Epicurus said not to think this way, so guessing it must have been common enough for it to be mentioned.

I found this article:

A philosophy as old as Homer : Giacomo Leopardi and Greek poetic pessimism

A philosophy as old as Homer : Giacomo Leopardi and Greek poetic pessimism

Here is another good entry on Cyrenaic philosophy from online Britannica:

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Cyrenaic, adherent of a Greek school of moral philosophy, active around the turn of the 3rd century bc, which held that the pleasure of the moment is the criterion of goodness and that the good life consists in rationally manipulating situations with a view to their hedonistic (or pleasure-producing) utility.

The school was called Cyrenaic because Cyrene in North Africa was the centre of its activity and the birthplace of several of its members. Although the elder Aristippus, a pupil of Socrates, was generally recognized as its founder, its flourishing occurred at a later date, probably at the end of the 4th century bc.

According to the Cyrenaics, a man knows that things external to himself exist because they have an effect upon him, but he can know nothing about their nature. All that he can perceive is the way in which he himself is affected by them; how other men are affected is unknown. The fact that two men give the same name to their experiences is no guarantee of identity. Thus, the only admissible objective of action is to ensure that one’s own affections are pleasant. The three possible conditions of the human constitution are violent change, gentle change, and stability. The first is accompanied by pain, the second by pleasure, the last by neither. Man must avoid the first and seek the second; it is a mistake to suppose that the third is pleasant or desirable. Moreover, the pleasure to be sought is that of the moment; only present experience can give present pleasure. Happiness, the sum of pleasures, is to be valued because it includes momentary pleasures, which are like in kind, their relative value depending only on their intensity. Bodily pleasures (and pains) are more intense than those of the mind. Nevertheless, the latter were recognized and even held to include some that have an altruistic aspect; e.g., joy in the prosperity of one’s country. To be stronger than pleasure is a true Socratic ideal and distinguishes the Cyrenaic from the wastrel.

Three Cyrenaics made innovations important enough to give their names to followers. Theodorus denied that pleasures and pains are good or bad. His aim was mental cheerfulness and the gift of wisdom, which he considered sufficient for happiness. Hegesias, like Theodorus, doubted the power of reason to procure pleasures and so advised avoidance of pain; much pain of mind could be avoided by regarding such things as poverty and riches, slavery and freedom, death and life as matters of indifference. Finally, Anniceris revived the original doctrines with some additions.

The ethical doctrines of the later Cyrenaics were, in due time, incorporated bodily into the teachings of Epicurus, founder of a later school of ethical philosophy.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Cyrenaic

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With all this good material, I am thinging a table of comparisons could be created.

I think I better add in here that if a person interprets the Epicurean principles to be "tranquility is the goal" (as it appears that the above blogger J. Crago does) then it will appear that there are more differences between the ethical Epicurean and Cyrenaic teachings. There are however more differences between the epistemology of each one, than the ethical. I think it would be right to say that Cyrenaic leans toward skeptical and Epicureanism is empirical.

Here on this forum we use the Epicurean principles and interpret the "why" of pleasure to lead to our goal of the fullness of pleasure. And so we wouldn't agree with some of the points that J. Crago put forth on Epicureanism.

It does seem that Cyrenaic philosophy puts more emphasis on pleasure in the present compared to Epicureanism.

This also by Jordan Crago:

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...Aristippus prided himself on his mastery over the pleasures he indulged, ensuring that he never made the mistake of believing a particular source of pleasure to be essential to his happiness, which allowed him to forego it if needed. For example, Aristippus said that he possessed the infamous courtesan Laïs, but that he was not possessed by her, and that “what is best is not abstaining from pleasures, but instead controlling them without being controlled.” This ability to indulge pleasure but also forego it, for example, if it will ultimately bring you greater pain in its wake, brought Aristippus a sense of freedom and self-mastery.

Like later Cyrenaics, Aristippus held that bodily pleasure was greater than mental pleasure. This seems plausible, for who would argue that the memory of fine food rivals the eating of fine food in enjoyment? Nevertheless, Aristippus put great stock by the avoidance of mental suffering. Indeed, part of Aristippus’ teaching on never becoming dependent on a particular source of pleasure, which is to say, seeing them as essential to your happiness, has to do with avoiding the distress you would feel if you lost that pleasure.

...The next Cyrenaic virtue I’ll discuss is temperance, which Aristippus defines as disdaining excess. The following letter written by Aristippus to his daughter illustrates Cyrenaic temperance. He is advising his daughter on how to react to the local government threatening to seize her properties: “I instruct you to manage this business with the rulers in such a way that my advice benefits you. That advice was not to desire what is excessive. In this way you’ll live out your life in the best fashion, if you’re disdainful of every excess. Those men will never wrong you so much that you’ll be in want, since you still have the two orchards, and they suffice even for a luxurious life. Even if only the property in Berenice were left, it wouldn’t fail to support an excellent lifestyle.”

Aristippus reminds his daughter that although she will lose some land, she will still have some left, and what remains is sufficient for a luxurious lifestyle. Now, for those of us who own no property, this anecdote isn’t enormously relatable. However, Aristippus does insist that “Those men will never wrong you so much that you’ll be in want”, which implies that even if the government seized all her properties, rather than just some, she would still have enough to be happy.

What Aristippus is implying, I think, is that although luxuries add spice to happiness, they are not ultimately essential to it. Another anecdote supports this idea: “Since you share this pleasant lifestyle with those women, let the officials in Cyrene wrong you as much as they want: they won’t wrong you with respect to your natural end”. This reminds me very much of Epicureanism, which is unsurprising since Epicurus was so influenced by the Cyrenaics.

In particular, I’m reminded of the Epicurean distinction between necessary and unnecessary desires. Some desires are necessary to the pleasant life, for example, one’s basic bio-psychological needs (food, water, shelter, friends), but others are unnecessary to the pleasant life, i.e. desires for luxuries. For Epicurus as for Aristippus, I suggest, luxuries add variety to the pleasant life, but one could still live pleasantly without them. The difference being, of course, that Epicurus taught voluntary asceticism from luxuries, whereas Aristippus taught controlled indulgence of them.

Thus, we might say that to desire excess is to desire what you cannot have. The importance of disdaining excess lay in the danger of undermining enjoyment in what you have available to you by replacing it with unhappy longing and toiling for what you don’t have, which is hedonistically irrational. Disdaining excess, then, offers an antidote to the unnecessary unhappiness of those who have everything they need to be happy — basic needs and, for most people, a ton of luxuries to boot — but who nevertheless make themselves unhappy by desiring what can’t be had.

https://jordancrago.medium.com/how-to-be-a-cyrenaic-d6b06041beb0

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Just adding this in here, as it has some usefullness. And to further see how this is beneficial:

When a particular thing that we want is very difficult or impossible to get or we have lost something that we thought was very pleasurable and can no longer get it, then we may feel angry or sad (and also may begin to feel feelings of hopelessness) -- then we need to survey the situation and see some important truths about happiness -- that our own happiness doesn't depend on just one thing -- happiness comes from multiple sources. So we can then stop "knocking our head against a wall" with regard to a certain thing that we want and can't get -- and not be so uptight about it. Further down the line we may decide that it is still something to put effort into achieving, and we can go about it clear-headed. Or we may simply see that we really don't need that thing as much as we thought we did, and so creatively pursue other enjoyments in life.

I think it is important to remember that this isn't the easiest to impliment -- there may be a feeling of internal resistence (I want what I want, no matter what!). But unlike Buddhism (which appears to me to teach "letting go, doing nothing, and having no further desires") I see this as different in that we are active and seek out new pleasure and enjoyments to replace what we can't have or have lost. So the emphasis is on personal responsibility and freedom -- making choices and taking actions that lead to enjoyment and happiness.

Here is a blog which explores Cyrenaicism and compares it to Epicureanism, by Jordan Crago.

I forgot that I started this thread, and need to reread it. I have still been curious to understand the differences. Also, if there is something helpful within it's approach. (Pleasure in the present moment is the antidote to low-level anxiety arising out of uncertainty). Further study may lead me to an eclectic "Epicurean-Cyrenaic" understanding

Here is a website which references Cyrenaic writings:

The Cyrenaics Resource [The Lucian of Samosata Project]

There are a lot of books on Existential therapy, and I am sure each author has their own unique twist.

And I think that Epicureanism would put a unique twist on "finding meaning in life" or "making meaning in life" and it would probably be different that the way that existential therapists suggest -- though everything I read seems to indicate that Existential therapy is very open for each person -- there is no one right way to think about things. It is more about making sense of things like death, freedom and responsibility, the subjective sense of having an isolated self, and the on-going process meaning-making (and making sense of life).

Epicureans will make meaning out of life in a very different way than say Christians. We believe that meaning is individually constructed, not handed down to us. There is a lot more to think about than just "Pleasure is the goal in life". And one Epicurean might say: Oh my meaning in life is to understand: "how to live as the gods". But another might say something very different.

Epicureanism says "Death is nothing to us" but that is really just the tip of the iceberg in considering how and what to believe about death.

Exploration of our beliefs about death are also important within Existential therapy, so this is where there is an overlap, as the belief that this very life is important to live to the fullest and we must choose and take action.

Here is another overview of Existential therapy:

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Existential therapy takes a philosophical/intellectual approach to therapy. It sees humans as:

• having the capacity for self-awareness, experiencing tension between freedom and responsibility
• creating an identity and establishing meaningful relationships
• searching for the meaning, purpose and values of life
• accepting anxiety as a condition of living
• being aware of death and non-being

Having the capacity for self-awareness means that we as humans can reflect and make choices. We can expand our awareness through realising that:

• we are finite: time is limited
• we have the potential and the choice to act or not to act
• meaning is not automatic – we must seek it
• we are subject to loneliness, meaninglessness, emptiness, guilt and isolation

Accepting Freedom and Responsibility

Existential therapy posits that we are free to choose among alternatives, and thus we are responsible for our lives, actions and any failure to take action. If clients blame others for their problems, therapists in this modality would help them recognise how they allowed others to decide for them and the price they pay for doing so, and would encourage them to consider the alternative options.

Identity is the courage to be: we must trust ourselves to search within and find our own answers. Our great fear is that we will discover that there is no core or self. Clients who are struggling with their identity need to be challenged, asking them in what ways they have lost touch with their identity and are letting others design their life.

Relationship to Others

Existential therapy suggests that we are alone. We as humans must therefore give a sense of meaning to life, decide how we will live, have a relationship with ourselves and learn to listen to ourselves. Humans need to create close relationships with others. Therapists might challenge clients on what they get from their relationships, and how and why they avoid close relationships.

Search for Meaning

Existential therapists encourage clients to ask themselves what they want from life, and where the source of meaning lies for them in life. A trusting therapist–client relationship is important in teaching clients to trust their own capacity to find their way of being. Finding meaning in life is a by-product of engagement, which is a commitment to creating, loving, working and building. Meanwhile, meaninglessness in life leads to emptiness and hollowness (sometimes known as an ‘existential vacuum’).

Anxiety in Existential Therapy

Anxiety is seen by existential therapists as being a condition of living, naturally arising from a person’s striving to survive. This is known as ‘existential anxiety’ and is a normal outcome of facing the four ultimate concerns in life: death, freedom, isolation and meaninglessness.

Once existential anxiety is recognised, it can be dealt with constructively. Anxiety can be a stimulus for growth as we become aware of and accept our freedom. If we have the courage to face ourselves and the challenges of human life, we may be frightened but we can change.

Awareness of Death

Death is seen as providing the motivation for us to live our lives fully and take advantage of each opportunity to do something meaningful.

How Existential Therapy Works

This modality aims to help clients to expand self-awareness, increase potential choices, accept responsibility for their choices, and experience authentic existence. The therapist seeks to understand the client’s subjective world, encourage the client to accept personal responsibility, and get them to take responsibility for their role in any problematic life situations.

Existential therapy is not technique-oriented; instead, the interventions used are based on philosophical views about the nature of human existence, and use the therapist’s self. It is particularly well-suited to clients who are bereaved, facing significant decisions or developmental crises, coping with failures in marriage and work, or dealing with physical limitations due to age.

Strengths and Weaknesses for Multicultural Working

Existential therapy is applicable to diverse clients who are searching for meaning in their lives, including examining whether their behaviour is being influenced by social and cultural factors. Therapists can help clients to weigh up the alternatives and possible consequences, to recognise how they contribute to their situation, and to identify how they can change their external environment.

However, critics of existential therapy see it as excessively individualistic; for many cultures, it is not possible to talk about self and self-determination outside the context of the social network. This modality can also be seen as ignoring the social factors that cause human problems: even if clients change internally, there may be little hope that the external realities of racism or discrimination will change.

Existential therapy can also be difficult for clients who expect a structured and problem-oriented approach instead of discussion of philosophical questions.

https://counsellingtutor.com/counselling-ap…ential-therapy/

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I can imagine that there could be a way to combine Epicureanism and Existential therapy ideas together, and then develop this into a "peer-led support group".

Quote from Cassius

So the question is "From WHAT philosophical perspective?"

Existential psychotherapy comes out of the philosophy of Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. Then there were later therapists who expanded and adapted new perspectives, and it does appear there is a humanist approach.

I want to explore the compatibility of Epicureanism and Existential Therapy and also applying philosophical thinking to the practice of therapy. A quick online search brings several articles -- Existential therapists have the potential for using the philosophy of Epicurus in their practice of therapy.

First to explain Existential Therapy:

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Existential therapy is a form of psychotherapy that explores the difficulties that an individual experiences but from a philosophical perspective. This type of therapy focuses on the holistic aspects of the human condition as a whole. Existential therapy focuses on the individual and not the symptoms that the individual is presenting with but also recognizes the power of the individual to choose their actions. Emotional and psychological difficulties are viewed as an inner conflict caused by an individual’s confrontation with the givens of existence. Rather than exploring the past, the existential approach looks at the here and now. It can be highly effective with adolescents and adults that are struggling to make healthy life choices, as well as the consequences of their choices.

What is Existential Therapy?

Existential therapy is a type of talk therapy that is based on some of the main ideas behind existentialism as a philosophy. The goal of existential therapy is to assist individuals in accepting and overcoming existential fears that are inherent in being human. An example of these existential fears includes freedom and responsibility, isolation, meaninglessness, and death. Existential therapists evaluate a person’s experience in four dimensions of existence; physical, social, spiritual, and psychological. Through these dimensions are the existential fears of that individual’s life explored. Existential therapists look to help individuals live more authentically and to be less concerned with superficiality. Existential therapy focuses on each individual’s uniqueness as well as how their choices shape their life. It also helps guide individuals on their journey to self-understanding and self-acceptance. Within existential therapy, the individual is empowered to take responsibility for the choices that shape their lives. There is no structure to existential therapy therefore the number of sessions is not predetermined like with most cognitive-behavioral therapy. Existential therapy encourages individuals to:

• Evaluate their values, beliefs, and situation.
• Acknowledge their limitations as well as the possibilities for their lives.
• Find meaning and purpose in their lives.
• Develop more effective ways of communicating. (CRC Health, 2019)

The existential approach stresses that:

• All people have the capacity for self-awareness.
• Each person has a unique identity that can be known only through relationships with others.
• People must continually re-create themselves because life’s meaning constantly changes.
• Anxiety is part of the human condition.

https://www.claritychi.com/adult-therapy/…al-therapy/amp/

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The existential approach is first and foremost philosophical. It is concerned with the understanding of people’s position in the world and with the clarification of what it means to be alive. It is also committed to exploring these questions with a receptive attitude, rather than a dogmatic one: the search for truth with an open mind and an attitude of wonder is the aim, not the fitting of the client into pre-established categories and interpretations.

The existential approach considers human nature to be open-ended, flexible and capable of an enormous range of experience. The person is in a constant process of becoming. I create myself as I exist. There is no essential, solid self, no given definition of one’s personality and abilities.

Existential thinkers avoid restrictive models that categorise or label people. Instead, they look for the universals that can be observed transculturally. There is no existential personality theory which divides humanity up into types or reduces people to part components. Instead, there is a description of the different levels of experience and existence that people are inevitably confronted with.

Extracts are taken from ‘Existential Therapy’ (chapter Eight by Emmy van Deurzen, in Dryden, W. ed. The Dryden Handbook of Individual Therapy, London, Sage Publications, 2008.

https://nspc.org.uk/about-the-scho…ntial-approach/

To use all of this in a "self-help" manner:

I would suggest reading about Existential therapy and journaling, all while bringing in Epicurean principles.

I hope to post more on this soon.

Quote from Don

Academic commentators who elevate ataraxia and aponia at the expense of khara and euphrosyne do seem disingenuous or even dishonest. Those four are given together in the infamous katastematic/kinetic categorization. Epicurus included all four of these in his definition of pleasure.

katastematic:

ataraxia -

eponia -

kinetic:

khara - joy, delight, joy in or at a thing, in accordance with joyous tidings

euphrosyne - mirth, merriment, festivities, good cheer, cheered with glad thoughts

Don -- Can you post the links to translation entries for the Greek words ataraxia and eponia on the Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon website (I tried using their search engine but nothing came up on ataraxia, probably a user-error, lol).

Quote from Cassius

For both and everyone this episode is a good way to focus on the answer to the question:. When you and Epicurus both accept that you have been nonexistent for an eternity before birth and will be nonexistent for an eternity after you die, do you really think that Epicurus taught that the full description of all you want out of life is to be "calm?"

As I read this: "You have been nonexistent for an eternity before birth and will be nonexistent for an eternity after you die" -- it had a rather sobering affect on me -- and a feeling that I needed to sit down to make sense of it. Which points to the possibility that I don't really understand my mortality. It seems then that the next impulse is to then fully understand what it is to be alive, and that must be done through the senses and through experiencing the world. So that would be fully openning up one's awareness and one's senses -- which is a bit of a frightening thing, because if you open your awareness then you are confronted by everything -- both pleasure and pain!

VS 11 - "For most people, to be quiet is to be numb and to be active is to be frenzied."

I think this is a very important Epicurean principle to consider -- that we are going to navigate through the world neither numb, nor frenzied -- and maybe a better word than "calm" would be "grounded" (?)

Quote from Cassius

Pleasure as defined by normal definitions includes both joy and delight and tranquility. The reverse is not the case in normal or academic discourse - tranquility is not considered to include joy and delight.

As I see it f we want to convey that we value both goals in the online world of discussing Epicurus, the global word which must be emphasized is Pleasure. If we fail to make clear the sweeping definition of Pleasure, the result is that we imply that Tranquility is a separate and equal or even higher goal. At that point we will be indistinguishable from those who consider joy and delight to be second tier goals and that joy and delight are expendable or merely instrumental toward some supposedly higher word.

Thank you Cassius for your continued explainations and to not let us slip down into something that will be misinterpreted and lead back down to an incorrect interpretation. Word choice is everything it seems, and I see how this will continue to be an issue unless we get creative and write out some modern "principle doctrines" -- pithy ways of explaining core truths of Epicureanism. I myself like the phrase: "sweet life" because of the implications that it includes pleasurable sensations. But a full pithy saying is needed, and maybe more than just one pithy saying to better explain things.

Further thoughts on the podcast today:

There are several ways to approach this particular passage -- with a clearly rational/philosophical/thinking mind, or with a "feeling" component and therapeutic approach. And now thinking that perhaps Existential Therapy could be a way to combine both of these approaches -- the thinking mind and the feeling mind together.

Also, I brought up the importance of friendship for a happy life -- and I feel this is an antidote that should be explored for anyone who feels sad, depressed, or in need of some encouragement toward seeing life as good (so there is no reason to shun life).

Here is a thread I started earlier, on friendship:

Thread

Cultivation of Friendship within Epicureanism

Principle Doctrine 27:

27.	Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship.

Principle Doctrine 27 is very important for a happy life. Modern life is busy with work and family, and yet we all still need friends. So it is very important to take the time and put the effort into making friends and maintaining friendships. Some people might be satisfied with the number and kind of friendships in their lives, but others…

Kalosyni

January 16, 2022 at 8:54 PM