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  1. EpicureanFriends - Dedicated To The Study And Promotion Of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Kalosyni
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Posts by Kalosyni

  • Is the Natural and Necessary Question Objective or Subjective?

    • Kalosyni
    • November 22, 2022 at 1:35 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    One of the topics that came up in our zoom discussion of 11/20/22 was how Emily Austin sets forth the "detective" question in chapter 3 of "Living for Pleasure." Part of the issue discussed there is whether the question of whether someone is happy should be answered "subjectively" or "objectively."

    Here is a quiz on emotions felt in the previous 24 hours:

    PositivityRatio.com - Self Test

  • Is the Natural and Necessary Question Objective or Subjective?

    • Kalosyni
    • November 22, 2022 at 1:28 PM

    On the topic of Positive Psychology, and this is different than Seligman (and much better imo) is this book: "Positivity" by Barbara Fedrickson:

    PositivityRatio.com - Home

    I own a copy, and need to reread it, to see if it has any "Epicurean" elements in it.

  • Happy Thanksgiving Thread

    • Kalosyni
    • November 22, 2022 at 9:49 AM

    Here is a simpler version :)

  • Happy Thanksgiving Thread

    • Kalosyni
    • November 22, 2022 at 9:14 AM

  • Happy Thanksgiving Thread

    • Kalosyni
    • November 22, 2022 at 8:47 AM

    Cassius, I just found this article you wrote back in 2010, which has good things to say about gratitude. Reposting, the following words are by Cassius from:

    Gratitude As a Source of Strength During Times of Misfortune – NewEpicurean

    If you are like me, you often hear friends say (or post to Facebook) that they “couldn’t go on if they did not have their faith in God to pull them through.” Is there an Epicurean equivalent to that sentiment? Let me suggest that the student of Epicureanism should consider Gratitude in much the same light as a means of support during unfortunate times.

    To once again give credit for the inspiration for another post, please refer to Norman DeWitt’s 1937 article “The Epicurean Doctrine of Gratitude” for an excellent discussion of this concept. There DeWitt wrote that Epicurus instructed us to reflect on our gratitude to Nature for our present and past blessings, on our gratitude to those who guide us in the path of wisdom, and on our gratitude to our friends. In this way, gratitude preserves our youthfulness and serves as both an inalienable treasure and a healing medicine in time of misfortune.

    DeWitt cites the following that is left to us from the Epicurean texts:

    Gratitude to Nature:

    Fragment 67 – “Gratitude must be vouchsafed to blessed Nature because she has made the essential things easy to procure and those things that are hard to procure non-essentials.”

    Epicurus saw Nature as ready and willing to guide men in the path of wisdom: “We must not do violence to nature but obey her.” That Nature is a teacher is assumed in another passage: “She teaches us to regard as things of less moment the pranks of Fortune.” Again, when the body suffers, the soul cries out and Nature “passes the word along” that certain wants must be satisfied.

    We should be mindful of our past blessings:

    Letter to Menoeceus – “Wherefore, both when young and when old, a man must devote himself to philosophy, to the end that while he is growing old he may be young in blessings through gratitude for what has been.”

    “The adage ‘Look to the end of a long life’ betrays a lack of gratitude for past blessings.”


    “Forgetting the good that has been he has become an old man this very day.”

    “The aged man has cast anchor in old age as in a haven, having locked securely in a grateful memory the recollection of previous blessings that he had no right to count upon.”

    “One must heal his misfortunes by the grateful recollection of what has been and by recognizing that nothing can render undone what has been done.”

    We should be thankful that Nature has given us the present, and not just for the possibilities of the future:

    “The life that lacks wisdom is void of gratitude and filled with apprehension; its outlook is entirely toward the future.”

    Gratitude to those who Guide us in the path of Wisdom

    Our gratitude to those who guide us in the past of wisdom, most notably Epicurus himself, is well expressed in these words from Lucretius:

    “O glory of the Greeks, the first to raise the shining light out of tremendous dark, illumining the blessings of our life – You are the one I follow. In your steps I tread, not as a rival, but for love of your example. Does the swallow vie with swans? Do wobbly-legged little goats compete in strength and speed with thoroughbreds?

    You, father, found the truth; you gave to us a Father’s wisdom, and from every page, O most illustrious in renown, we take, as bees do from the flowery banks of summer, the benefit of all your golden words, the gold most worthy of eternal life.

    For, once your reason, your divining sense, begins its proclamation, telling us the way things are, all terrors of the mind vanish, are gone; the barriers of the world dissolve before me, and I see things happen all through the void of empty space. I see the gods majestic, and their calm abodes winds do not shake, nor clouds befoul, nor snow violate with the knives of sleet and cold. But there the sky is purest blue, the air is almost laughter in that radiance, and nature satisfies their every need, and nothing, nothing, mars their calm of mind.

    No realms of Hell are ever visible, But earth affords a view of everything, below and outward, all through space. I feel A more than mortal pleasure in all this, almost a shudder, since your power has given this revelation of all nature’s ways.”

    Gratitude for our Friends

    Principle Doctrine 27 – “Of the blessings that wisdom assembles for the happiness of the well-rounded life, by far the greatest is the possession of friendship.”

    “The wise man alone will know gratitude, consistently speaking well of his friends, alike when they are present and when they are absent.”

    “Friendship likewise has its beginnings in a calculation of needs; it is certainly necessary to take the preliminary steps, for we also plant seed in the ground, but it perfects itself through reciprocity of favors among those who have attained to the full enjoyment of pleasures.”

    The Necessity of Incorporating Gratitude Into Our Reflections

    To close with additional words from Lucretius:

    Our terrors and our darknesses of mind must be dispelled,

    Not by the sunshine’s rays, not by those shining arrows of the light,

    But by insight into nature, and a scheme of systematic contemplation.

    It would seem likely that among the things which students of Epicurus should include within that scheme of systematic contemplation, one of the most important for a healthy mind and attitude is Gratitude.

  • "Epicurean Issues" By Our Friend Michele Pinto

    • Kalosyni
    • November 22, 2022 at 8:32 AM

    This brings up questions about the very structure of current civilization -- and since I am in the United States then this is my viewpoint based on American society.

    Back in time, people were much more dependent on their families and their extended families. And that also meant that they had to "comply" with all the wishes that their parents asked of them, such as a son taking up the kind of work that his father thought was right for him, as well as only marrying according to the wishes of the parents.

    Now we are much more independent and make choices individually in a much more self-sufficient manner, because we can generally survive without the help of our family of origin.

    But because of this self-sufficiency, many people move to different parts of the country several times to change jobs. This means that new friends have to be made each time there is a move. And one's friends often move away as well. So friends are now somewhat "disposable" and maybe we don't get as close to people.

    The other aspect is that everyone is busy working, and one's romantic partner takes precedence -- there is very little time left over to do much recreation, and spouses and partners have to prioritize time for romance rather than take time for making or maintaining friendships.

    Thus in a busy world where there is not enough time, Facebook etc (and even this forum perhaps) takes on a role of connecting to others quickly and easily.

    But I think we (here on the forum) do have ways to have deeper engagement, for established members can join Zoom discussions, and even though it isn't "in-person" there can be a quality of connection coming out of regular Zoom participation. So then this is something to consider: how attending regular Zoom can support friendships and community.

    And also: we need to set up some Zoom meetings for new members to meet one another, maybe once a month.

  • Promising New Book ("Living For Pleasure") and Great New Article ("Are The Modern Stoics Really Epicurean?") Both By Emily Austin

    • Kalosyni
    • November 19, 2022 at 8:25 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    And by the way, the ultimate aim and description of the goal is not "the tranquil life." The proper wording is "the PLEASANT life."


    And she knows that. The title of the book is not "Living For Tranquility."

    Good to point that out. And thinking further about "unnecessary" desires -- I don't like that word "unnecessary" either, lol.

    We don't label a desire as unnecessary until for a particular individual they see for themselves that it is so -- when they see that it brings more pain than pleasure, causes way too much pain to aquire it, or is impossible to aquire -- and this can only be determined by that individual AND at a later time that person may be in a different situation and decide to pursue that desire.

    So in some sense "unnecessary" is really an artificial label used as a "coping mechanism" -- there are no absolutely unnecessary desires.

    Do you think this is correct?

  • Promising New Book ("Living For Pleasure") and Great New Article ("Are The Modern Stoics Really Epicurean?") Both By Emily Austin

    • Kalosyni
    • November 19, 2022 at 7:45 AM

    Labels shape how we think, and so I don't like the word extravagant one bit:

    From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

    extravagant

    adjective

    ex·trav·a·gant ik-ˈstra-vi-gənt 

    1 a : exceeding the limits of reason or necessity extravagant claims 
    b : lacking in moderation, balance, and restraint extravagant praise 
    c : extremely or excessively elaborate an extravagant display 
      2 : extremely or unreasonably high in price an extravagant purchase 
      3 a : spending much more than necessary has always been extravagant with her money 
    b : profuse, lavish

  • Promising New Book ("Living For Pleasure") and Great New Article ("Are The Modern Stoics Really Epicurean?") Both By Emily Austin

    • Kalosyni
    • November 19, 2022 at 7:38 AM

    All of this brings up for me the importance of not creating an exact list of what brings pleasure and what brings happiness -- because it will depend on the environment and culture that one is living in.

    Metrodorus, as quoted in the book:

    Quote


    I hear from you that the movement of your flesh is abundantly disposed toward sexual intercourse. As long as you do not break the laws or disturb noble and settled customs or vex any of your neighbors or wear out your body or use up the things necessary for life, indulge yourself in any way you prefer. However, it is impossible not be constrained by some one of these things. For sex never profits, and one must be content if it does not harm.5

    The idea that "sex never profits" is no longer true, as studies have shown it is good for the health of the body -- And there is birth control, and the consent movement.

  • Promising New Book ("Living For Pleasure") and Great New Article ("Are The Modern Stoics Really Epicurean?") Both By Emily Austin

    • Kalosyni
    • November 18, 2022 at 9:31 PM

    I've barely started the book, and I am reading the chapters out of order... chapter 16 - the label of "extravagant desires" doesn't seem quite right to me.

    Quote


    Nevertheless, Epicurus thinks sexual pleasure and committed romantic relationships are natural, but unnecessary, desires (or so I argue). In the terms of this book, they are extravagant desires, and all extravagant desires can adorn the tranquil life if you do them right.

    If you live in a location where everyone surrounding you is in a committed romantic relationship, then you will be the odd one out. If you live in a location where everyone is not in a committed relationship but you are, then you will be the odd one out in that situation. Your environment and the culture that surrounds you will affect you, as it does to any animal. What we need to be happy should not be labeled extravagant. But if we try to get something we want and can't achieve it after giving it a considerable effort, then we eventually say: okay I tried and move on to something else, or move to a different environment.

  • Epicurean substitute for prayer

    • Kalosyni
    • November 18, 2022 at 1:21 PM
    Quote from Pacatus

    Easy fare makes bountiful fest,

    and gratitude a Garden blest.

    Oh this is great for a meal prayer!

    And that gets me thinking about what might I like to compose for a meal prayer. :)

  • Epicurean substitute for prayer

    • Kalosyni
    • November 18, 2022 at 1:19 PM

    Finally something further came to me for this thread. A work in progress, and maybe more of a meditation rather than a prayer.

    Epicurean Prayer for Self-guidance

    May I remember to see the future as just as important as the present. May I remember that there is just this one life and to be fully present to it. May I trust that I will find solutions to all my challenges, and skillfully take actions to create my best life.

    May I remember that actions of kindness, honesty, and patience especially when faced by challenges, are most likely to lead to better results for long-term happiness.

    May I remember to seek out the help of trusted friends even when I think I am doing fine on my own. May I offer help to my trusted friends as an opportunity to strengthen the connection we share.

    May I actively seek to find comfort and joy in daily moments of pleasant sensations. May I enjoy all the new things that I am learning about the world. May I remember to do the most important actions to live happily. (this last line, more to be added).

  • Ten (10) commandments

    • Kalosyni
    • November 18, 2022 at 10:14 AM
    Quote from camotero

    Well, the motivation behind this is teaching a kid (who's not going to be raised in a religious context, but lives in a religious immediate-society, and that is expected to hear about the commandments sooner or later)

    Also, you want to teach the virtues as a tool that leads to a happy life.

    It will really depend on the age of the child. And also I think the main issues are about teaching not to steal or lie -- and how to teach choices and avoidances that will lead to a happy life and good relationships with people. Once a child has an understanding of others and self, then gradually increasing the complexity of the why to not steal or lie.

    About stealing, there is a very good phrasing that Buddhists use in their precepts: To not take what is not given.

    Also in addition to not lying, they add in to not spread gossip, and so there is the understanding that doing certain things tend to cause problems in the future (so to do them is to cause yourself trouble, in addition to the harm it causes others and the loss of trust that will result).

    So the 10 commandments don't adequately teach these nuances.

    But if you think of ways that people cause harm, then you get:

    1) to refrain from killing or injuring

    2) to refrain from lying or spreading gossip

    3) to refrain from taking what is not given

    Then add in both of these:

    The Golden Rule: Treat others the way you would want to be treated

    The Platinum Rule: Treat others as they would want you to treat them

  • Ten (10) commandments

    • Kalosyni
    • November 17, 2022 at 9:14 PM

    This a very good project. Brings up Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development, and I think I posted about this before (but don't remember for sure), Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development.

    Quote

    Kohlberg identified three distinct levels of moral reasoning: preconventional, conventional, and postconventional. Each level has two sub-stages.

    People can only pass through these levels in the order listed. Each new stage replaces the reasoning typical of the earlier stage. Not everyone achieves all the stages. The 3 levels of moral reasoning include:

    Level 1 - Preconventional morality

    Preconventional morality is the first stage of moral development, and lasts until approximately age 9. At the preconventional level children don’t have a personal code of morality, and instead moral decisions are shaped by the standards of adults and the consequences of following or breaking their rules.

    For example, if an action leads to punishment is must be bad, and if it leads to a reward is must be good.

    Authority is outside the individual and children often make moral decisions based on the physical consequences of actions.

    • Stage 1. Obedience and Punishment Orientation. The child/individual is good in order to avoid being punished. If a person is punished, they must have done wrong.

    • Stage 2. Individualism and Exchange. At this stage, children recognize that there is not just one right view that is handed down by the authorities. Different individuals have different viewpoints.

    Level 2 - Conventional morality

    Conventional morality is the second stage of moral development, and is characterized by an acceptance of social rules concerning right and wrong. At the conventional level (most adolescents and adults), we begin to internalize the moral standards of valued adult role models.

    Authority is internalized but not questioned, and reasoning is based on the norms of the group to which the person belongs.

    A social system that stresses the responsibilities of relationships as well as social order is seen as desirable and must, therefore, influence our view of what is right and wrong.

    • Stage 3. Good Interpersonal Relationships. The child/individual is good in order to be seen as being a good person by others. Therefore, answers relate to the approval of others.

    • Stage 4. Maintaining the Social Order. The child/individual becomes aware of the wider rules of society, so judgments concern obeying the rules in order to uphold the law and to avoid guilt.

    Level 3 - Postconventional morality

    Postconventional morality is the third stage of moral development, and is characterized by an individuals’ understanding of universal ethical principles. These are abstract and ill-defined, but might include: the preservation of life at all costs, and the importance of human dignity.

    Individual judgment is based on self-chosen principles, and moral reasoning is based on individual rights and justice. According to Kohlberg this level of moral reasoning is as far as most people get.

    Only 10-15% are capable of the kind of abstract thinking necessary for stage 5 or 6 (post-conventional morality). That is to say, most people take their moral views from those around them and only a minority think through ethical principles for themselves.

    • Stage 5. Social Contract and Individual Rights. The child/individual becomes aware that while rules/laws might exist for the good of the greatest number, there are times when they will work against the interest of particular individuals.

    The issues are not always clear-cut. For example, in Heinz’s dilemma, the protection of life is more important than breaking the law against stealing.

    • Stage 6. Universal Principles. People at this stage have developed their own set of moral guidelines which may or may not fit the law. The principles apply to everyone.

    E.g., human rights, justice, and equality. The person will be prepared to act to defend these principles even if it means going against the rest of society in the process and having to pay the consequences of disapproval and or imprisonment. Kohlberg doubted few people reached this stage.

    https://www.simplypsychology.org/kohlberg.html

    Display More

    Understanding the morals of the Christian Ten Commandments would depend on the age of an individual -- a child would view the 10 Commandments with Level 1, Stage 1 and an adult would view them within Level 2 thinking.

    Now I look over this and seems that Epicurean ethics would be at Level 3, Stage 5 -- so this is able to look at exceptions depending on unique circumstances.

  • Thoughts and Discussion on Organizing Epicurean Community

    • Kalosyni
    • November 17, 2022 at 1:07 PM

    Here is a kind of "vision board" for creative ideas about shaping the future of Epicurean philosophy. What might we want to share with others as being beneficial for people to study on a larger scale beyond this forum? --not with the goal to popularize it, but as a "study Epicurean philosophy to gain more happiness" movement for building a community of like-minded people.

    I created the images for this collage using "text to image" in the Canva app (which why there is distortion on the faces, so best not to zoom in too closely).

    So then looking at these pictures, what exactly are people studying and what is being taught? I think this could be a springboard to gaining clarity about what are the best aspects of Epicurean philosophy and how to go about teaching it.

  • Episode One Hundred Forty-Eight - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 04 - True Opinions And False Opinions About Epicurus

    • Kalosyni
    • November 16, 2022 at 10:53 AM

    Tonight at 8:30pm ET is our Wednesday night Zoom discussion, and we will be discussing this podcast, open to established members and podcast listeners. Here is our events calendar listing explaining more about it.

    epicureanfriends.com/wcf/calendar/event/1872/

  • Episode One Hundred Forty-Eight - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 04 - True Opinions And False Opinions About Epicurus

    • Kalosyni
    • November 15, 2022 at 9:27 PM

    Notes on second half of podcast:

    33:00 -- Is it legitimate to speculate about possiblities without any existing evidence of your own to consider those possiblities to be valid. Is it legitimate to think you could spend an eternity in heaven and bliss because you can't rule it out and you've never been there before.

    How do you sort which claims can be evaluated reasonably and which claims can't.

    Christopher Hitchens - Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - and those claims which are extraordinary but have not furnished extraordinary evidence should simply be dismissed, its not worth our time.

    Thomas Jefferson and the doctrine of the Holy Trinity -- an idea has to be comprehensible before we can act upon it.

    Good evidence, the nature of your evidence, the 5 senses anticipations and the feelings, as opposed to circumstantial reasoning, creating hypotheticals

    35:30 -- DeWitt's importance of approaching what truth is, and how you've arrived at it (summary of what was just covered)

    36:25 -- Epicurus was a man of action and not just thought. It was false to believe that Epicurus was a moral invalid, a pacifist, who taught retirement from and non-engagement with the world. The truth was that he was producing a philosophy with missionary aspects and had natural gifts of being a leader, an organizer, and a campaigner.
    This was explained in "Philosophy for the Millions" essay by DeWitt

    37:35 -- Joshua tells about philosophers in ancient Greece -- because philosophers are interested in the workings of nature, things that are going on in the sky, behind the scenes full attention and focus is on that so that when it comes to the real world and the things that people have to do to survive in the real world to get by, the philosophers are not adequate to the task -- many stories from the ancient world make this point -- they didn't really seem to focus on things that matter to most people

    39:45 -- Many of his books were titled "Against" a particular idea or person which may be why he was considered combative


    It seems from the very beginning that it was set up to be a school, it was intended to be an organized presentation of a reform movement

    40:25 -- Epicurus' view about self interest -- it's false to say that Epicurus was a totally egoistic hedonist ruled solely by a narrow view of his own self interest, focused on the pleasure of the moment.


    It was true that this was the first world philosophy that was acceptable to both Greeks and non-Greeks, and that Epicurus taught that we should make friends whenever possible. So it is not exclusively inward facing, but it was focused on the result of living a pleasurable life which cannot be obtained successfully in most cases unless you are to some extent engaged with the world around you -- emphasis on friendship and living among people who are your friends -- He was not an isolated thinker -- self-interest must be supported by action in the real world among your friends.

    42:00 -- the false accusation that Epicurus was an "isolated thinker" doesn't go into how his followers were called "pigs in his heard" by his detractors. It was said that unlike other philosophical schools, no one was seen to leave the Epicurean school to join the other schools and so they were compared to becoming eunuchs. Scathing portrayal of Epicureans as being effeminate and lacking self-awareness in the hedonistic pursuit of pleasure, as being stupid, and poor citizens.

    43:55 -- Ayn Rand, Objectivism, book: The Virtue of Selfishness -- false choice between the goal of should be for your own interest as opposed to other people's interests. Epicurus would condemn the idea that your own selfishness is the goal -- ultimate goal is pleasure and cannot achieve that if you put your own interests above others -- Epicurus says sometimes you are going to die for a friend. You are going to realize there is going to be a time for putting your interests first and a time for putting other people's interests first - the goal of living pleasurably

    46:00 -- he said that to hold property in common showed a lack of trust among his members so that not to be done.

    Establishing more friendship, broader support for pursuing pleasure.

    47:50 -- Vatican Saying 43

    48:25 -- Epicurus' relevance to the development of Christianity.
    False to say that Epicurus was an enemy of all religion, what was true was that he had his own views of what was a proper religion, changing the emphasis from political virtues of the state to social virtues, how best to relate to other people. Applicable everywhere.

    DeWitt's view stretches Epicurus' relationship to development of Christianity - sees commonalities where most of us would not see commonalities.

    False opinion was that Epicurus was just an absolute atheist, dismissed the idea of talking about divinity.

    50:25 -- Rather than raising citizen solders of the state, he was attempting to do something more personal and social that have reference to politics

    51:00 -- Pictures of Epicurus in their house or on rings

    52:00 -- page 8 DeWitt says: "Epicureanism served in the ancient world as a preparation of Christianity helping to bridge the gap between Greek intellectualism and a religious way of life..."

    For more see DeWitt's book "Saint Paul and Epicurus" looks at different passages in the New Testament to see what relationship they could have to Epicureans.
    This book may appeal to those who are coming from Christianity and looking to study Epicurus for the first time.

    54:25 -- Lucian - two camps opposed to the oracle, the Christians and the Epicureans, for different reasons

    55:10 -- Next week: we will turn attention to ancient Athens and the period in which Epicurus developed his philosophy and do a little bit of biographical background

    56:55 -- Won't fully understand about happiness and pleasure without this background overview of where Epicurus was coming from

  • Episode One Hundred Forty-Eight - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 04 - True Opinions And False Opinions About Epicurus

    • Kalosyni
    • November 14, 2022 at 7:38 PM

    Notes from first half of podcast:

    Continuing with true opinions and false opinions -- presenting these issues so that newer readers can be aware of them and understand how they fit into the big picture

    1:54 -- Epicurus' views on truth


    DeWitt said that it was a true opinion that he exalted nature as the norm of truth - and that this was a revolt against Plato who considered reason the norm, reason to have a divine existence of its own.

    Epicurus taught that nature ant the use of sensations, feelings, and anticipations are the standard for determining what we believe to be true.

    False opinion to say that Epicurus was an empiricist in the modern sense -- he did not declare that sensation was the only source, and also be careful about the different meanings that the word "truth" can have.

    3:00 -- commentary about the method by which Epicurus determined what was true vs what he thought was false.

    This brings us to types of reasoning, deductive vs inductive reasoning -- DeWitt says that Epicurus taught chiefly by deduction adopting the procedures of Euclid, and parting company with both Plato and the Ionian scientists.

    The false opinion was that Epicurus was a strict empiricist

    3:58 -- What is inductive reasoning vs deductive reasoning


    Inductive: Inference of a generalized conclusion from particular instances -- moves from observations to a generalization -- example: we see that from dogs around us that they have four legs so we deduce that all dogs have four legs (over-generalize -- there are some dogs that only have 3 legs) But we have to live with the knowledge that we have not observed every instance of dogs in the world (you've got a problem if you say I don't believe it unless I've seen it). Once you've seen a certain number then you decide based on probability percentage -- 95 percent sure it is correct. (9:00)

    9:50 -- Epicurus talked about multiple causations, waiting when you don't have enough information, he would have accknowledged the limitations of inductive reasoning

    10:10 -- Deductive reasoning: the deriving of a conclusion by reasoning in which the conclusion about particulars follows from general or universal premises -- moves from a theory then deduce by logic what is not directly obvious -- it depends on the truth of the premises, and so not really more powerful than induction because these premises have be developed through induction

    11:00 -- an interplay of induction and deduction

    Plato - knowledge of absolutes through reasoning -- to be sure of something, ideal forms -- he hide inductive reasoning through geometry

    12:25 -- Epicurus -- the need to rely on the senses -- he believe that nature gave us only the senses, the feelings, and anticipations for determining the truth


    Plato -- believed we had to go beyond the senses, and to some extent reject what the senses were telling us

    13:15 -- the problem of universals -- qualities or relations found in two or more entities -- for example: if cup holders are considered circular, then circularity may be considered a universal property of cup holders -- human beings can talk and think about universals but philosophers disagreed if universals exist in reality beyond mere thought and speech

    14:25 -- Epicurus - universals are in our thoughts only


    Categorization goes on in human mind, these categories aren't generated universally - does the color yellow exist on its own separate from things that are yellow, does yellow exist in the abstract apart from the things that are yellow - Martin says "No".

    16:12 -- Mammals, platypus

    19:00 -- Theory - an explanation for phenomenon which has taken account for all the known facts, and unknown facts
    --the ability to account and assimilate new information, adjust your theory in relation to all the evidence.

    22:55 -- based on probability and the need to make decisions, does that lead you to become a total skeptic.


    Epicurus was not a skeptic -- he repeats in Letter to Pythocles -- "nothing in phenomena is against it". Magnetism, not possible to have an adequate understanding at that time. But for a tornado or lightning, he would say that nothing in phenomena is against it.

    25:45 -- Dogmas are open to revision.


    dogmatic=axiomatic. Realist as opposed to skeptical (but doesn't answer the questions). You still have to take positions on what is real and how do you determine what is real -- consistently reporting to us from the faculties which nature gave us.

    27:20 -- Martin's take is that modern science is not after the truth in the way that ancient philosophers were

    28:55 -- Joshua via Indiana Jones movie - Philosophy is looking for truth and science is looking for facts (my paraphrase)

    31:50 -- Philosophical conversations which science can't answer, such questions as: is there life beyond the grave, dose a supernatural god exist, questions like that are particularly provinance of philosophy and religion. If you are going to make a claim, the claim is unfalsifyable and cannot be tested.


    And if you hold yourself to the standard that the only thing you are totally confident in is something which you observe for yourself, you've reached the end of your ability to reason -- we don't accept that there is any evidence from anyone who has come back from being dead and by definition understand that once were dead we don't come back from it. So in terms of being certain what happens after you die, if we take the position that we haven't experienced it for ourselves so therefore we're not sure, we've reached a dilemma in our reasoning -- Epicurus was taking the position that if you stop at that point, saying I don't know, you are always going to have doubt in your mind that will cause you to live less happily than you otherwise would.

    33:15 -- Is it legitimate to speculate about things

  • Epicurean substitute for prayer

    • Kalosyni
    • November 13, 2022 at 1:01 PM

    I almost went to this Unity church this morning, but then I felt my "atheist" spirit say to me better to go worship at a "house of coffee" (a coffeehouse).

    Here is what was on their website (everything is good except the Bible verse at the end).

    Quote

    I use divine wisdom to find my way.

    When I’m pondering a perplexing question or I need to make an important choice, I reach beyond human reasoning to the limitless wisdom of divine mind, never further away than my next thought.

    After clarifying my question and considering my available options, I release the situation, focusing instead on the divine presence within. I affirm: I am using divine wisdom to show me the way. In prayerful silence, peace envelops me.

    As I conclude my prayer time and resume my activities, I may experience a flash of insight or a more gradual understanding. However it happens, I trust my next steps will become clear to me. Confident in my divine guidance, I move forward with calm assurance.

    But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.—Matthew 6:33

  • Epicurean substitute for prayer

    • Kalosyni
    • November 12, 2022 at 6:09 PM
    Quote from Joshua

    I find myself alive in the universe. I know that there is sorrow, and fear, and that life sometimes hurts—but I also know that it is wonderful, really wonderful, sometimes sublime, just to be alive here. There is beauty and delight here that will move me even at my last breath. There is knowledge and philosophy to dull my pains, and to enhance my pleasures. There is friendship, romance, love, art, and literature—all the choicest fruits of a peaceable and prosperous age, in a free and civil society. To say that I am grateful is simply to say that I appreciate it. To appreciate something, and to appreciate the gift of something, are two different things. One who appreciates wine recognizes its worth and its specialness in a deep and penetrating way.


    That's what it is to appreciate life and its blessings

    I really like this, and maybe will use some of this (if you don't mind Joshua) to create a kind of prayer.

    Also thinking something similarly pithy with regard to "prayer" during illness -- that I remember that slight pains can be endured by adding in pleasure, and extreme pains are only short in duration. (Feeling a little under the weather and once my mind feels a little clearer will dive into this).

    And also work on "prayer" addressing anxiety, fear, sadness.

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