Thanks Cassius for pointing that out, and this interesting quote:

Quote

The methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.^[225]

Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.^[215]

Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.^[218]

It would be good to evaluate any of the Epicurean verses in light of two factors:

1) Does this Epicurean verse allow me to see and exercise my free will, and does it help me see that I have multiple options for solving problems in my life?

2) Does this Epicurean verse confound (confuse or mix up) the symptoms (my feelings/emotions) with the causes? (Try to get rid of symptoms without understanding the causes).

Quote from Nate

As an Epicurean, I recommend taking Epicurus' advice over Wikipedia's.

Good point! And also I think Cassius would say a certified therapist would be recommended for really difficult problems, since there are limits to Epicurean philosophy, and it is not a therapy, and thus cannot take the place of a certified therapist.

Registered users please check to see if you have received a private conversation message (see below for how to do so). It appears that the private conversations option is not optimized when using your cell phone for viewing the forum.

Almost all discussions are held on the public forum, because we all benefit from philosophizing together as a community.

However the forum does give an option for private conversations.

Private conversations are most often used to announce Zoom meeting links and updates.

If you are a registered user and you are using your cell phone to read the forum, please be aware that the private conversations notification is indicated by a red dot on your round profile icon. You need to click on your profile icon which will open your "User Menu" and then click on "Conversations".

Let us know if you have any further questions.

Yes and I think audio material is great for "newbies"...for ease of reference here are some links:

Part: 1

Thread

Episode 156 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part One

Welcome to episode 156, a special two-part Episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you too find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where…

Cassius

January 10, 2023 at 12:58 AM

Part 2:

Thread

Episode 157 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part Two

Welcome to episode 157, part two of a special two part Episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you too find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at…

Cassius

January 19, 2023 at 10:13 AM

And the YouTube version which is all in one piece:

Also, this particular YouTube was helpful for me when I first started out:

"Major Aspects of Epicurean Philosophy" (Cassius gives an overview)

Friendship is an important aspect of happiness and well-being. And, in marriage, friendship is considered very important now in our current times. Some people do not have any close friends other than their spouse. Having friends (other than a spouse) is especially difficult for those people who move to different cities for career changes. Of course this puts a lot expectation and pressure on marriage. It will be inevitable that differences in opinion will arise, and knowing how to work through that is of utmost importance.

Here are some links to some very good information which explains a major source of conflict in marriage -- if one (or both partners) are "other-blamers" -- how to recognize it and what to do.

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Other-Blamers manage the feeling of shame with a lack of accountability. The key behavioral sign is hyper-vigilance to and over-reactivity to criticism. Other-Blamers tend to argue or attack to keep any taint of blame from landing close.

While these strategies provide comfort to the individual, they are counterproductive in relationships. Other-Blaming is often at the root of relationship problems, because of the reluctance to admit fault.

Quote

In some people, the experience of shame triggers a fearful response, overwhelming the cognitive functioning of the brain, leading to fear-based behaviors of reacting rather than responding thoughtfully.

They are highly motivated to manage their shame and fear and respond with three predictable and easily identified behavioral responses called Counterproductive Shame Management Strategies:

1. Other-Blaming
2. Self-Blaming
3. Blame Avoiding

The simple key to understanding the three Shame Management Strategies is the answer to this question: How does the person handle criticism?

When held accountable for a behavior, what does the person do?

• blame others
• blame themselves, or
• preemptively try to avoid blame

Be sure to read both of following links, if you are interested in learning more.

I created a flow chart to illustrate possible ways to deal with the feeling of frustration.

Wikipedia: "In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition [or unexpected obstacles to goal fulfillment], related to anger, annoyance, and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked." (Wikipedia article).

Is the following chart helpful? Is there anything which should be added or changed?

Quote from Nate

His sweetest quote on pain management is useful to me in acknowledging the power of remembrance,

Yes, and everyone will have varying results in how they understand and use Epicurean ephorisms, so it could be a very individualized process. Perhaps everyone should make their own collection of what they find helpful, as an exercise and to assist in learning.

As for myself...there is now so much on the internet. And all I have to do is type in whatever problem I am encountering and then lots of practical advice comes up for me on various websites. I even can recommend Wikipedia, when I looked up the word "frustration".

Quote

In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition, related to anger, annoyance and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked.^[1][2][3] There are two types of frustration: internal and external. Internal frustration may arise from challenges in fulfilling personal goals, desires, instinctual drives and needs, or dealing with perceived deficiencies, such as a lack of confidence or fear of social situations. Conflict, such as when one has competing goals that interfere with one another, can also be an internal source of frustration or annoyance and can create cognitive dissonance. External causes of frustration involve conditions outside an individual's control, such as a physical roadblock, a difficult task, or the perception of wasting time.^[4] There are multiple ways individuals cope with frustration

Frustration - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Coping - Wikipedia

Quote from Kalosyni

3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.

Quote

Feelings: emotions or sensations, free of thought and story. These are to be distinguished from thoughts (e.g., “I feel I didn’t get a fair deal”) and from words colloquially used as feelings but which convey what we think we are (e.g., “inadequate”), how we think others are evaluating us (e.g., “unimportant”), or what we think others are doing to us (e.g., “misunderstood”, “ignored”).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication

You can read all about "faux feelings" here:

Faux Feelings – Making Life More Wonderful

@Nate, as I look over it some more:

1. my concern continues to be that these will end up dealing with "symptoms" and not "causes" of feelings and emotions. Also, you'll want to have your sense of anger working correctly, so it is there for you when you need it, and you should not be trying to tamp it down. So a truly emotionally healthy person will feel a rainbow of feelings and emotions, but they will not be perplexed, overwhelmed by, or stuck in their feelings/emotions. There will be a healthy flow. And healthy anger when it does arise won't be a big blowout, but a recognition of bodily feelings. And so...We need not the appearance of health but actual true health (VS54)

2. Verses taken out of context: -- the first listing under "persecuted" from Letter to Menoeceus; -- VS62 under "anger" is specifically between parents and children (perhaps there are others).

3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.

Quote from Cassius

I want to be sure my anger is directed at the proper objects, and then I want to work as hard as I can to resolve that problem clearly and directly, even if the other person or people disagree.

Exactly! And so understanding the difference between protective use of force vs punitive use of force is very important, and will lead to better future outcomes.

Quote

Protective use of force vs. Punitive use of force

Protective vs. punitive use of force (difference is in intention) protective force's intention protects from injuries or accidents or misuse of someone's rights and or loss of life. Punitive use of force has an intention to change the other person through punishment or reward, to teach how they "should" do.

...If the intention is only to protect my own need, then it’s justified. That’s the only time force is justified. I must have no desire to make the other person suffer.

https://en.nvcwiki.com/index.php/Prot…ve_use_of_force

And this would support: "Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good."

Quote from Cassius

On second reading, I am now thinking that Kalosyni's issue is not so much with Nate's formatting as it is with Epicurus' content

In this type of document things could be "taken out of context" (how many Christian preachers do this with the Bible?).

And we don't know in what manner Epicurus taught. All we have is what later people (after Epicurus) copied or wrote down, and it is impossible to rule out that they "re-interpreted" things.

Diogenes Laertius lived in the 3rd Century CE (Wikipedia)

Epicurus lived in 341 - 270 BCE -- here is a link to a graphic timeline comparing several other historical figures who wrote on Epicurean philosophy.

So...we must understand the foundations of Epicurean philosophy and then everything must be viewed in light of the very basic foundations -- and ask this: "Does it lead to pleasure, joy and happiness?"

Here is an overview of how NVC suggests dealing with anger:

Quote

Nonviolent Communication for Anger

“The cause of anger lies in our thinking – in thoughts of blame and judgment.”

– Marshall B. Rosenberg, PhD.

Many people want to know how to use Nonviolent Communication for anger because it can be such a scary emotion for so many people. Feeling it, expressing it — and being on the receiving end of it — can be extremely unsettling!

Nonviolent Communication (NVC) helps us navigate anger in a holistic way. Using NVC for anger is a healthy and empowering way to rewire our responses to this powerful emotion.

Because anger is so often associated with violence, it’s common for people to avoid anger — as they might avoid conflict — out of their need for safety.

But anger itself is simply an emotion.

How we choose to handle it — including how we hold it within ourselves and how we express it — can make all the difference.

Just as importantly, how we handle another person’s anger, especially when it is directed toward us, can also make the difference between conflict and connection. Let’s take a deeper look at how Nonviolent Communication for anger works with our internal dialogues….

Healthy Ways to Handle Anger Inside Ourselves

Nonviolent Communication gives us healthy ways to handle anger inside ourselves.

Employing Nonviolent Communication for anger first requires acknowledging that this is an incredibly powerful emotion, and that we probably need to find more healthy ways to handle it inside ourselves.

One of the main challenges to finding healthy ways to deal with anger inside ourselves is that by the time anger arises we have usually already lost control.

By using Nonviolent Communication for anger, we rewire our capacity and skills for handling anger constructively. At first, our attention centers on how soon we can recover from an anger episode, and with what intention and how soon do we engage in any necessary relationship repair and clean-up.

As we cultivate healthy ways to handle our anger, we begin to catch it sooner. We start to notice subtle shifts and changes before we’ve erupted in anger! We can notice where we’ve made an assumption or an interpretation that in the past would have led to us feeling angry. This helps us calm down and deconstruct the story that has led to anger. It also gives us the opportunity to question it or check it out with others, before lashing out in anger.

As we cultivate healthy ways to handle anger inside ourselves, we begin to discern the deeper Universal Human Needs and values that underlie an expression of anger. Once a person has connected with their own (and/or others’) underlying needs and values, what we find is that the emotion shifts. At that point it’s usually not anger anymore. The shift from right/wrong thinking to connection with the underlying needs or values comes with a shift in the feeling which now might be frustration or sorrow, but no longer anger.

When we connect with our feelings and needs, and we allow our feelings to flow in a space of presence, healing begins to happen. At this point, we are getting closer to a place of mourning, forgiveness, and self-forgiveness.

Content by PuddleDancer Press. Use of content okay with attribution. Please visit https://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/ to learn more about Nonviolent Communication.

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Quote

Healthy Ways to Deal with Anger from Other People

Learning healthy ways to handle anger inside ourselves is only one part of how Nonviolent Communication and anger relate. Another part involves learning healthy ways to deal with anger from other people. Being on the receiving end of anger can be incredibly scary for reasons of our emotional, mental, and physical safety.

In these situations, besides high-level NVC skills, we want reassurance that we will be safe. (See the distinction between protective and punitive use of force.)

If we are certain of our physical safety, sometimes another’s anger is disconcerting for other reasons:

They have judgments of us which are hard to hear and/or,

We are taking responsibility for their feelings, telling ourselves that we made this person feel bad, and/or,

We’re concerned about some damage to an important relationship, as well as all that that can mean and imply.

The tools of NVC come in handy when cultivating healthy ways to deal with anger from other people. These tools include self-empathy, empathy toward others, and the ability to express truthfully or authentically with the intention to create a connection and refraining from using words that would cause more harm.

Imagine working on anger — your own or receiving others’ — to the point where you felt safe and comfortable around it, and knew how to handle it confidently and effectively, able to defuse conflicts and guide them toward more connection!

How does this look in an everyday context?

Let’s consult Dr. Marshall Rosenberg on NVC and anger to find out….

Dr. Marshall Rosenberg on NVC for Anger

Dr. Marshall Rosenberg, Ph.D. had revolutionary insight on the relationship between NVC and anger. According to Dr. Rosenberg, anger means we are disconnected from our needs. He taught us that anger is one of the four emotions that are disconnected from needs because of what we are telling ourselves. (The other three are shame, guilt, and depression).

In a practical context, these are the types of questions we can ask ourselves to see if we are progressing on using NVC for anger:

When someone speaks to me in anger, do I stay self-connected? Can I give myself self-empathy rather than judge them back or blame myself?

When someone speaks to me in anger, how soon does my attention go to what their needs might be? Am I able to give them empathic presence (perhaps after giving myself self-empathy) rather than judge them back or blame myself?

When someone speaks to me in anger, to what degree am I able to hang in there with the conversation? Am I able to express my honesty from the heart, my feelings and my needs — perhaps in addition to empathic presence, possibly with moments of self-empathy throughout — rather than judge them, blame myself, lash out, disconnect, or rush to a solution for short term relief?

To what extent can I hang in there in a tough conversation for the possibility of deeper connection and a mutually satisfying outcome?

If I notice we’re both angry, and both want to be heard at the same time, can I call a time-out in a way that we can get support in order to come back to the conversation?

With NVC for anger, we also learn how to own the causes and express anger fully. This means deconstructing the story we have and getting to the underlying needs. When we do this we can express what we value and cherish — rather than focusing on our judgments of others or becoming entrenched in who was right or wrong. In this way, NVC for anger helps us shift the feeling of anger to other, more life-connected feelings.

Content by PuddleDancer Press. Use of content okay with attribution. Please visit https://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/ to learn more about Nonviolent Communication.

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Nonviolent Communication for Anger - PuddleDancer Press

There are great benefits of Nonviolent Communication for anger. NVC helps us handle this powerful emotion inside ourselves and with others in a healthy way

www.nonviolentcommunication.com

Wow! @Nate, That is a big collection of "Epicurean verses" and I can imagine that this took a lot of work to compile.

I had some feelings/reactions come up as I did a quick skim of it. And my feelings probably are due to the time that I spent studying "Compassionate Communication" also called Nonviolent Communication -- NVC, by Marshall Rosenberg. Within NVC, it deals directly with why feelings arise in the first place, and then when we clearly understand a given situation we can more effectively make choices and take action. The actions we take are not to just get rid of a feeling (such as just to remove the symptom) but to address the root cause of a feeling -- and to make changes which lead to more pleasure and happiness in life.

It is very interesting to see the verses, and how they might tie in together with emotions and feelings. But I do wonder if this is really effective for helping people? How many of these verses actually help with the root causes of feelings and emotions? How many of these verses help with making the best "choices and avoidances" without "guilting" someone, but instead inviting someone to see the truth on their own terms? I would really need to read through much more closely to evaluate each one.

Perhaps a slightly different formating could make it work for some of the material which helps deal with root causes.

To illustrate further, I would only trust something which has a feeling of compassion toward feelings and emotions, and not an authoritarian tone of "right/wrong" -- if there is even the slightest sense of something suggesting: "Shut up and stop crying" then I would not use it even if purported to be said by Epicurus.

Another option would be to follow an outline of some kind, and think there are many different outlines here on the forum.

You may have seen that we've been working on creating an Epicurean Week program, and potentially this could be of help:

Epicurean Week Development Project - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

It isn't very developed yet, but in the coming weeks this should be fleshed out a bit more, including practical exercises:

Epicurean Week Development Project - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

I would recommend studying and discussing the Letter to Menoceus, the Principal Doctrines, The Vatican Sayings, and the Torquatus section of Cicero's On Ends.

And also be sure to interpret everything in accord with the following aphorisms (and these will help you avoid the danger of over-emphasis on "minimalism"/"tranquility")

PD05

PD08

PD27

VS14

VS71

Quote from Don

I think it is extremely dangerous to consult "answers" from AI chatbots, no matter how sophisticated, to questions like this. I will admit it can be a novelty or intriguing, but any answers we want to questions like that should be weighed against *human* feelings and sensations.

Perhaps the biggest danger is that somehow any human being might be tempted to give ChatGPT some kind of "authority status" and to somehow think that it is smarter than any human being.

For example, if you had to "weigh" this:

-- Kalosyni says "xyz" vs ChatGPT says "xyz"

It is possible that some people out there would give more credit to ChatGPT?

In some sense asking certain questions of ChatGPT is "lazy", and I myself could sit down and think and write out a list of possible answers, especially given my own knowledge of the world based on my 52 years of existence. But a much younger person, for example a teenager, won't have the knowledge to do that.

And in some ways it isn't any different than asking the opinion of another human being. When I was attending a Buddhist Zen group, there would sometimes be new people asking questions that were very "simple" (almost cringeworthy) which most likely they should have just taken the time to answer for themselves (but the Zen teacher would answer anyway).

Quote from Cassius

No doubt, but it's also inevitable that millions (billions?) of people are soon going to be doing exactly that, so we'll need to want to explore this - just as you are doing - so we can figure out the best response.

I think we should create a special section perhaps (and which has it's own folder).

I personally think that this particular question that I started the thread out with: "What are the limits of desires?" to be a worthwhile question. And in some ways the ChatGPT maybe didn't fully answer it, so will need to think some more on it.

I typed in a question on the limits of desires into ChatGPT, and here is the result:

Quote

My Question:

Explain reasons why there are limits to desire in all areas in life. Describe what might limit desire. Explain what causes desire to arise and what causes desire to disappear.

ChatGPt Answer:

Desire can be defined as a strong feeling of wanting or wishing for something. While desires can provide us with motivation and drive, there are limits to desire in all areas of life. Here are some reasons why:

1. Limited resources: Our desires may be limitless, but the resources we have to fulfill them are not. Whether it is time, money, or other resources, we are limited in what we can achieve.
2. Physical limitations: Our bodies have limitations as well. We may desire to achieve a certain level of physical fitness or perform certain activities, but our bodies may not be capable of doing so.
3. Social norms and expectations: Society places limits on what we can desire and achieve. Certain desires may be frowned upon or even prohibited by social norms and expectations.
4. Personal values and beliefs: Our own values and beliefs can also limit our desires. We may not desire things that go against our moral or ethical code.
5. Emotional and psychological factors: Our emotional and psychological state can also limit our desires. Depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues can affect our ability to desire and achieve certain things.

Desire arises when we feel a sense of lack or deficiency. We may desire something that we perceive will fill that void or improve our situation. Desire can be triggered by external factors such as advertisements, peer pressure, or social media, or internal factors such as personal goals and aspirations.

Desire can disappear when we either achieve what we desire or when we realize that the desired object or outcome is not as fulfilling as we thought it would be. We may also lose interest in a desire if it becomes too difficult or requires too much effort to achieve. Additionally, our desires may change over time as we grow and evolve as individuals.

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Do you think this enhances the understanding of PD10 and is in alignment with Epicurus' teachings?

Day to be determined, sometime in March or April -- This is open to all forum members. We will set a date after getting feedback from members interested in attending. Please post here if you are interested, thanks!

Wanted to give out an FYI -- Work is currently in progress in reorganizing the forum, so if you notice files moving around don't panic. Just post here if you have any questions or difficulty in finding something. I am also in process of filing threads from "General Discussion", so that they will be in their appropriate categories.

And feel free to let me know if you have any input or suggestions in regard to forum categories.

Thanks!

@Agrios, Welcome to the forum!

We are in process of updating some graphics, and this somehow wasn't showing in your original welcome thread (but I added this in again).

It has always puzzled me as to why the Garden of Epicurus was refered to as "Kepos" -- and perhaps there was something in the minds of people at his time which we don't fully grasp.

Looking at Greek mythology there is the garden of Hera, also called Garden of the Hesperides.

From the internet: "The Garden of the Hesperides is Hera's orchard in the west, where either a single apple tree or a grove grows, producing golden apples." (Wikipedia)

...and...

"The Golden Apples in the Garden of Hesperides were a wedding gift to Hera from Gaia and were protected by a great serpent called Ladon. The Apples as well as the rest of the life in the Garden were tended by the Hesperides, minor earth goddesses or nymphs and daughters of the Titan, Atlas."

"The Garden itself was completely ruled by the Olympian gods and goddesses, therefore completely inaccessible to mortals. To complete his twelve labors, Hercules was sent to the garden to retrieve three of these golden apples for King Eurystheus."

"To find the exact location of the Garden of Hesperides, Hercules had to pry the information from Nereus, the Old Man of the Sea, encounter and free Prometheus, kill Ladon, and implore Atlas to pick the apples for him. Eager to sit aside his burden of holding up the heavens, Atlas convinced Hercules to take up the heavens in his place before deciding to take the apples to Eurystheus himself and leave Hercules there. Hercules tricked him by claiming he needed to make a pad for his shoulders to hold the heavens up more comfortably, asking Atlas to take them up again for a moment. When Atlas held the heavens again, Hercules snatched the apples from him and left. After this long adventure to get the apples, Athena rather anticlimactically took the Apples from Eurystheus and returned them to the Garden."

(Source)

So thinking further on how this mythical garden was thought to be inaccessable to mortals, in contrast we have "Kepos" and this could give some indication as to the nature of the Epicurean garden -- and the Epicurean hope that mortals could live as blissfully as the gods.

Also I looked up on cultivation of apples, and found this, which says they were cultivated in ancient Greece (source).

So perhaps there was an apple tree in the Kepos