Posts by Kalosyni
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I created this graphic as an attempt to illustrate possible ways to think of pleasure and pain as varying levels on a slider. This may need to be changed, and please let me know if there might be other ways to illustrate, or further questions.
Also, the following points:
1. When pain is removed it produces an experience of relief which is felt to be a kind of pleasure.
2. Even when one part of the body is in pain, pleasure can be felt in another part of the body.
3. At times mental pleasures can feel stronger than bodily pains.
4. Pleasure can only be varied (but not increased) once pain is removed.
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LateLearner Welcome! And thank you for your post over in the thread about the book group:
If you like you can share either in that thread, or here in this welcome thread about any fun stories you would want others on the forum to know about you, for example how you came to be interested in Epicurean philosophy or anything else relevant
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I am interested. I bought the book but haven't read it yet.
Thanks LateLearner for your RSVP -- the first meeting will cover the first four chapters - 41 pages. Have you read any other books on Epicurean Philosophy or will this be your first? I am always interested to hear about any background regarding philosophy study or how you became interested in Epicurean philosophy?
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@TauPhi Welcome to the forum!
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"He famously denies that perceptible qualities other than shape and size (and, perhaps, weight) really exist in the atoms themselves: one direct quotation surviving from Democritus claims that ‘by convention sweet and by convention bitter, by convention hot, by convention cold, by convention color; but in reality atoms and void’ (DK 68B9, trans. Taylor 1999a)."What comes to mind for me is that this claim by Democritus is slightly similar but yet different to the Buddhist "Two Truths" which according to a Tricycle article is: "The doctrine of two truths—the absolute and the relative—holds that there are two ways of viewing the world: as things appear to be, and as they are. In other words, existence is both relative (or conventional) and absolute. The relative or conventional explanation of reality is what we know and experience, while the ultimate or absolute truth is inexpressible, empty (sunya), and lies outside of conventional experience and language. The conventional truth about something is its dependence on conditions. The ultimate truth is its emptiness. This doctrine has its roots in the words of the historical Buddha, who acknowledged that some experiences, in particular nirvana, lie beyond the ability of language to describe."(Source)
I confess that I would need to read more of the Sedley article and a lot more on this to fully understand what Epicurus' stance was. I personally reject any idea of "two truths" (no matter the source) because it leads to meaninglessness and passivity. Yet there is one thing that I do hold to be true which is that the use of language is conventional, and that we must always take that into consideration - language is just a symbol pointing toward reality and it is not reality. Is there any indication of this in Epicurus, that language is understood as conventional?
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Thank you Onenski, @TAC, and Cleveland Okie for your response. This thread will be functioning as the sign-up for the meeting, so you are all now on the list.
Anyone else who would like to attend please use this thread as an RSVP to let us know you would like to attend. We will send everyone a link to the Zoom meeting by private message on the day of the meeting.
I am aiming to post some disscussion questions on the first four chapters next week (will post them here in this thread).
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@TAC Welcome to the forum!
So much of what they philosophized about, felt relevant. I found shades of them in Eckhardt Tolles famous books as well as…don’t laugh some of Tony Robbins as well! Haha I was struck by how much of what I read about Epicurus seem to really resonate with me. In particular…ataraxia.
Way back some time ago I briefly read some of Echardt Tolle and Tony Robbins. I am pondering as to where there could be some overlap between their philosophies and Epicurus' philosophy. My memory and intuition feels that there are definitely some core differences. Where there is overlap, we would need to see if it encouraged actively pursuing what is pleasurable in life. So to the extent of, if and when they urge following pleasure as a guide (as Epicurus urges) that would be an important aspect.
As for ataraxia, I like to define it as "smooth sailing" to highlight active choices rather than passivity.
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I wanted to thank Don for participating in the podcast, and say that I really enjoyed hearing everything you shared and your upbeat and cheerful podcast personality. Don, I know you've been in on it for the last few weeks on a drop-in basis, and hoping you will join us again sometime soon.
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I am putting together a few discussion questions based on the first four chapters, and aiming to post them next week, so they will be ready in time for the first meeting of the book study group on April 30th (will post in that thread).
"Living for Pleasure" Book Study Group - Starting April 30, 2023 - Via Zoom
Hi Everyone,
We are starting up a new book study group on Emily Austin's book: "Living for Pleasure: an Epicurean Guide to Life" - via Zoom.
This is open to all forum members -- and -- it will be especially geared for newer members who are just starting out in their study of Epicurean philosophy.
We will discuss 4 chapters per meeting which will take a total of 6 weeks (since there are 24 chapters).
This is a heads up so that you can purchase your book in time for the first meeting.
Here is the… -
Reginitsa welcome to the forum!
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Step 4 title is now changed to:
Free Yourself From Supernatural Gods, Fatalism, and Fear Of Death
....Although I am not fully settled on that exact wording.
We still need to add in something about Philodemus and also something about the Vatican Sayings, in Step 2 Key Sources.
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Welcome to the forum DonnieFowler!
I see you posted a comment in another thread. If you feel up to it and it sounds fun for you....we would love for you to share here in this thread about how you found the forum, or any background about yourself such as to how you came to study Epicureanism. Thanks
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Hi Everyone,
We are starting up a new book study group on Emily Austin's book: "Living for Pleasure: an Epicurean Guide to Life" - via Zoom.
This is open to all forum members -- and -- it will be especially geared for newer members who are just starting out in their study of Epicurean philosophy.
We will discuss 4 chapters per meeting which will take a total of 6 weeks (since there are 24 chapters).
This is a heads up so that you can purchase your book in time for the first meeting.
Here is the Amazon link (for ease of reference):
https://www.amazon.com/Living-Pleasure-Epicurean-Guide-Guides/dp/0197558321
Martin, Cassius, and myself will be facilitating discussion.
The first four chapters are:
1. Maybe We're Doing It Wrong
2. Epicureanism, the Original Cast
3. Happiness, Theirs and Ours
4. Natural Hedonism
Please let us know if you are interested in attending by posting here in this thread.
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@DMTaylor welcome to the forum!
You might like to check out this YouTube video overview by Cassius:
Also, the there is a very good interview of Emily Austin on the podcast:
Part 1:
Part 2:
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"Measuring" brings to mind the "measuring stick" (Canon). Is that more than coincidence? Is there a relation in the Greek, or is it just a quirk of the English?
It does seem to me that the faculties of the Canon are quite useful in judgments of the type being discussed.On thinking further, back in ancient Greece divination was common (and I need to do more research to find out more about how common it was). So having a method of making good choices and avoidances would have been of utmost importance in order to counter any urges for using superstitious divination.
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In last night's Zoom meeting, we discussed this Homeric tale (of a drug which removes all pain and suffering), and a question came up about no longer needing friends. This morning I was researching something else, and happened upon this (which is only the abstract):
QuoteAre Friends and Friendship Worthwhile to the Advanced Epicurean?
Commentators usually understand the Epicureans to take friends and friendship to be worthwhile because they help us to eliminate and/or manage our bodily and/or mental pains and thus come closer to achieving tranquility. However, this understanding leaves unexplained why friends and friendship might be worthwhile to an advanced Epicurean with few or no pains to manage or eliminate. In this paper, I remedy this deficiency by offering three explanations for why friends and friendship could and maybe would remain worthwhile even to the Epicurean who achieves tranquility. Along the way, I explore some problems with each explanation and consider ways to overcome them. Notwithstanding these problems, I conclude that friends and friendship could and perhaps would be worthwhile even to the Epicurean with few or no pains.
Now this article excerpt also goes to show the depth of misunderstanding of the philosophy. The correct understanding is to think about how Epicureans aim to live as blissfully as the gods. Do the ancient gods sit alone in quietude? No, they are always sitting or dancing blissfully together in a long and enjoyable feast. So they need people, and they need friends.
And thinking further, try this experiment: For several days consider whether or not a human being can actually eradicate all suffering. Is it possible? Especially we all must face the challenges of earning a living. So work is probably one of those arenas in which we need to make careful "choices and avoidances" but even then there will be challenges.
Now a hypothetical...Let's say you are living a serene life of retirement and living in a nice environment with everything you need. There will still be "small pebbles of life disturbing the tranquil pond" of your psyche - this is what is it to be alive. But with wisdom we learn to not "freak out" about things.
So only the gods live a perfectly serene existence without pain or suffering.
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There is no absolute quantification of pleasure points or pain values. Choice and rejection is an art, not a science.
Maybe it *would* be better to retire that phrase. "Calculus" implies some kind of single answer to the calculation.
"Choice and rejection" is not a math problem. It's a personal decision
I like the phrase "choices and avoidances"...and even if it is a long phrase, it is very clear what is being talked about.
Symmetresis" is the word I prefer to use in the place of "hedonic calculus."
That post cries out for explanation, Nate!
I Googled that word, and see it on several site's index listings, but when I click on those pages cannot find a direct translation or reference as to where that word originates, so I am very curious @Nate
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As I was thinking further, I found some articles which you can read in this post:
And thinking further that we as Epicureans are choosing to put a greater emphasis on seeking rewards and pleasure rather than on fearing punishment or pain. So while it is natural to be motivated by both pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, it can actually be a sign of poor mental health if one is only focused on avoiding pain.
QuoteThe latest research from the Bo Li Lab suggests that an imbalance between the push-pull of GABAergic and glutamatergic VP neurons skews "positive vs. negative motivation and may explain behaviors associated with psychiatric disorders like depression or anxiety."
People suffering from major depressive disorder (MDD) are often unmotivated to seek out things that once gave them pleasure. Those of us who are prone to generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) often go to extreme lengths to avoid situations that seem threatening.
Perhaps one day there will be something called "pleasure therapy".
Hoping that all of what we are posting in this thread may give some food for thought and inspiration for @Nate to create more fun memes, as he always comes up with such imaginative ones.
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This Wikipedia article: Hedonic Motivation is interesting:
QuoteHedonic motivation refers to the influence of a person's pleasure and pain receptors on their willingness to move towards a goal or away from a threat. This is linked to the classic motivational principle that people approach pleasure and avoid pain,[1] and is gained from acting on certain behaviors that resulted from esthetic and emotional feelings such as: love, hate, fear, joy, etc.[2] According to the hedonic principle, our emotional experience can be thought of as a gauge that ranges from bad to good and our primary motivation is to keep the needle on the gauge as close to good as possible.[3]
Historically, approach and avoidance motivation have been linked to the hedonic characteristics of pleasure and pain.[1] The root word hedonic comes from the Greek word for “sweet”, which means relating to or characterized by pleasure.[1] This is interesting because even though hedonic motivation incorporates the pursuit of pleasure as well as the avoidance of painful situations, the concept has been traditionally linked to the positive connotation of pleasure.[2] For example, hedonic goods are bought so that the consumer may gain pleasure and enjoyment from the good,[4] and value experiences are also viewed as hedonic experiences.[1]
And a Frontiers article: Truth, control, and value motivations: the “what,” “how,” and “why” of approach and avoidance (which I have not yet finished reading but wanted to include):
QuoteThe hedonic principle—the desire to approach pleasure and avoid pain—is frequently presumed to be the fundamental principle upon which motivation is built. In the past few decades, researchers have enriched our understanding of how approaching pleasure and avoiding pain differ from each other. However, more recent empirical and theoretical work delineating the principles of motivation in humans and non-human animals has shown that not only can approach/avoidance motivations themselves be further distinguished into promotion approach/avoidance and prevention approach/avoidance, but that approaching pleasure and avoiding pain requires the functioning of additional distinct motivations—the motivation to establish what is real (truth) and the motivation to manage what happens (control). Considering these additional motivations in the context of moral psychology and animal welfare science suggests that these less-examined motives may themselves be fundamental to a comprehensive understanding of motivation, with major implications for the study of the “what,” “how,” and “why” of human and non-human approach and avoidance behavior.
The hedonic principle has existed for at least as long as we have had the capacity to write down our thoughts about ourselves, being recorded, for example, in the teachings of the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus. In modern times, the principle reached its fullest expression as a foundation for human psychology and ethics in Bentham’s (1789/2007) influential An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation: “Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain, and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do” (Bentham, 1789/2007).
Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com
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