Quote from Don

That's a pretty layout, but there are SO many things wrong with that imagined conversation!

Yes! And this is how false ideas get spread, so it is important to set things straight as you have done in your paper (referenced above).

I found a conversion page for stadia to miles.

20 stadia = just about 2 miles

Now Don has the following in his paper, which looks like the distance was quite a bit less.

Quote

Cicero’s walk across Athens, through the Dipylon Gate, and ending at Plato’s Academy provides a tantalizing route for a walking tour through the ancient city. According to Cicero’s text, he and his friends walked six stades from the Dipylon Gate while talking about various topics (inde sermone vario sex illa a Dipylo stadia confecimus), and his companion Pomponius remarks that, upon arriving at the Academy, they had just passed (quos modo praeteribamus) Epicurus’s Garden.

I happened to find this just last night and this looks like a page from a book, and it is a collector's item. I've been looking to find out if there are any more "Epicurean conversations" by Landor to be found on the internet. Joshua, maybe you know about this?

(Source)

I happened to find this before the newsest posting by Don (article which talks about pinpointing the exact location of the Garden).

Here is a bit more about the writer and poet Landor...from Wikipedia:

Quote

The Imaginary Conversations were begun when Landor was living in Florence and were initially published as they were completed between 1824-9, by which time they filled three volumes. The dialogues, not yet divided into categories, were initially given the composite title Conversations of Literary Men and Statesmen. With their success Landor continued to write more, as well as to polish and add to those already published. Some appeared first in literary reviews, as for example the conversation between "Southey and Porson" on William Wordsworth's poetry in 1823, predating the first published series of conversations in the following year. Various supplemented editions followed each other until there were five volumes containing nearly 150 conversations.

And this:

I created this graphic as an attempt to illustrate possible ways to think of pleasure and pain as varying levels on a slider. This may need to be changed, and please let me know if there might be other ways to illustrate, or further questions.

Also, the following points:

1. When pain is removed it produces an experience of relief which is felt to be a kind of pleasure.

2. Even when one part of the body is in pain, pleasure can be felt in another part of the body.

3. At times mental pleasures can feel stronger than bodily pains.

4. Pleasure can only be varied (but not increased) once pain is removed.

LateLearner Welcome! And thank you for your post over in the thread about the book group:

Post

RE: "Living for Pleasure" Book Study Group - Starting April 30, 2023 - Via Zoom

[…]

Thanks LateLearner for your RSVP -- the first meeting will cover the first four chapters - 41 pages. Have you read any other books on Epicurean Philosophy or will this be your first? I am always interested to hear about any background regarding philosophy study or how you became interested in Epicurean philosophy?

Kalosyni

April 14, 2023 at 8:45 AM

If you like you can share either in that thread, or here in this welcome thread about any fun stories you would want others on the forum to know about you, for example how you came to be interested in Epicurean philosophy or anything else relevant

Quote from LateLearner

I am interested. I bought the book but haven't read it yet.

Thanks LateLearner for your RSVP -- the first meeting will cover the first four chapters - 41 pages. Have you read any other books on Epicurean Philosophy or will this be your first? I am always interested to hear about any background regarding philosophy study or how you became interested in Epicurean philosophy?

TauPhi Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Cassius

"He famously denies that perceptible qualities other than shape and size (and, perhaps, weight) really exist in the atoms themselves: one direct quotation surviving from Democritus claims that ‘by convention sweet and by convention bitter, by convention hot, by convention cold, by convention color; but in reality atoms and void’ (DK 68B9, trans. Taylor 1999a)."

What comes to mind for me is that this claim by Democritus is slightly similar but yet different to the Buddhist "Two Truths" which according to a Tricycle article is: "The doctrine of two truths—the absolute and the relative—holds that there are two ways of viewing the world: as things appear to be, and as they are. In other words, existence is both relative (or conventional) and absolute. The relative or conventional explanation of reality is what we know and experience, while the ultimate or absolute truth is inexpressible, empty (sunya), and lies outside of conventional experience and language. The conventional truth about something is its dependence on conditions. The ultimate truth is its emptiness. This doctrine has its roots in the words of the historical Buddha, who acknowledged that some experiences, in particular nirvana, lie beyond the ability of language to describe."(Source)

I confess that I would need to read more of the Sedley article and a lot more on this to fully understand what Epicurus' stance was. I personally reject any idea of "two truths" (no matter the source) because it leads to meaninglessness and passivity. Yet there is one thing that I do hold to be true which is that the use of language is conventional, and that we must always take that into consideration - language is just a symbol pointing toward reality and it is not reality. Is there any indication of this in Epicurus, that language is understood as conventional?

Thank you Onenski, @TAC, and Cleveland Okie for your response. This thread will be functioning as the sign-up for the meeting, so you are all now on the list.

Anyone else who would like to attend please use this thread as an RSVP to let us know you would like to attend. We will send everyone a link to the Zoom meeting by private message on the day of the meeting.

I am aiming to post some disscussion questions on the first four chapters next week (will post them here in this thread).

@TAC Welcome to the forum!

Quote from TAC

So much of what they philosophized about, felt relevant. I found shades of them in Eckhardt Tolles famous books as well as…don’t laugh some of Tony Robbins as well! Haha I was struck by how much of what I read about Epicurus seem to really resonate with me. In particular…ataraxia.

Way back some time ago I briefly read some of Echardt Tolle and Tony Robbins. I am pondering as to where there could be some overlap between their philosophies and Epicurus' philosophy. My memory and intuition feels that there are definitely some core differences. Where there is overlap, we would need to see if it encouraged actively pursuing what is pleasurable in life. So to the extent of, if and when they urge following pleasure as a guide (as Epicurus urges) that would be an important aspect.

As for ataraxia, I like to define it as "smooth sailing" to highlight active choices rather than passivity.

I wanted to thank Don for participating in the podcast, and say that I really enjoyed hearing everything you shared and your upbeat and cheerful podcast personality. Don, I know you've been in on it for the last few weeks on a drop-in basis, and hoping you will join us again sometime soon.

I am putting together a few discussion questions based on the first four chapters, and aiming to post them next week, so they will be ready in time for the first meeting of the book study group on April 30th (will post in that thread).

Thread

"Living for Pleasure" Book Study Group - Starting April 30, 2023 - Via Zoom

Hi Everyone,

We are starting up a new book study group on Emily Austin's book: "Living for Pleasure: an Epicurean Guide to Life" - via Zoom.

This is open to all forum members -- and -- it will be especially geared for newer members who are just starting out in their study of Epicurean philosophy.





We will discuss 4 chapters per meeting which will take a total of 6 weeks (since there are 24 chapters).

This is a heads up so that you can purchase your book in time for the first meeting.

Here is the…

Kalosyni

March 31, 2023 at 3:10 PM

Reginitsa welcome to the forum!

Step 4 title is now changed to:

Free Yourself From Supernatural Gods, Fatalism, and Fear Of Death

....Although I am not fully settled on that exact wording.

We still need to add in something about Philodemus and also something about the Vatican Sayings, in Step 2 Key Sources.

Welcome to the forum DonnieFowler!

I see you posted a comment in another thread. If you feel up to it and it sounds fun for you....we would love for you to share here in this thread about how you found the forum, or any background about yourself such as to how you came to study Epicureanism. Thanks

Hi Everyone,

We are starting up a new book study group on Emily Austin's book: "Living for Pleasure: an Epicurean Guide to Life" - via Zoom.

This is open to all forum members -- and -- it will be especially geared for newer members who are just starting out in their study of Epicurean philosophy.

We will discuss 4 chapters per meeting which will take a total of 6 weeks (since there are 24 chapters).

This is a heads up so that you can purchase your book in time for the first meeting.

Here is the Amazon link (for ease of reference):

https://www.amazon.com/Living-Pleasure-Epicurean-Guide-Guides/dp/0197558321

Martin, Cassius, and myself will be facilitating discussion.

The first four chapters are:

1. Maybe We're Doing It Wrong

2. Epicureanism, the Original Cast

3. Happiness, Theirs and Ours

4. Natural Hedonism

Please let us know if you are interested in attending by posting here in this thread.

@DMTaylor welcome to the forum!

You might like to check out this YouTube video overview by Cassius:

Also, the there is a very good interview of Emily Austin on the podcast:

Part 1:

Post

Episode 156 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part One

Welcome to episode 156, a special two-part Episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you too find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where…

Cassius

January 10, 2023 at 12:58 AM

Part 2:

Post

Episode 157 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part Two

Welcome to episode 157, part two of a special two part Episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you too find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at…

Cassius

January 19, 2023 at 10:13 AM

Quote from Godfrey

"Measuring" brings to mind the "measuring stick" (Canon). Is that more than coincidence? Is there a relation in the Greek, or is it just a quirk of the English?

It does seem to me that the faculties of the Canon are quite useful in judgments of the type being discussed.

On thinking further, back in ancient Greece divination was common (and I need to do more research to find out more about how common it was). So having a method of making good choices and avoidances would have been of utmost importance in order to counter any urges for using superstitious divination.

In last night's Zoom meeting, we discussed this Homeric tale (of a drug which removes all pain and suffering), and a question came up about no longer needing friends. This morning I was researching something else, and happened upon this (which is only the abstract):

Quote

Are Friends and Friendship Worthwhile to the Advanced Epicurean?

Commentators usually understand the Epicureans to take friends and friendship to be worthwhile because they help us to eliminate and/or manage our bodily and/or mental pains and thus come closer to achieving tranquility. However, this understanding leaves unexplained why friends and friendship might be worthwhile to an advanced Epicurean with few or no pains to manage or eliminate. In this paper, I remedy this deficiency by offering three explanations for why friends and friendship could and maybe would remain worthwhile even to the Epicurean who achieves tranquility. Along the way, I explore some problems with each explanation and consider ways to overcome them. Notwithstanding these problems, I conclude that friends and friendship could and perhaps would be worthwhile even to the Epicurean with few or no pains.

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/1…05/html?lang=de

Now this article excerpt also goes to show the depth of misunderstanding of the philosophy. The correct understanding is to think about how Epicureans aim to live as blissfully as the gods. Do the ancient gods sit alone in quietude? No, they are always sitting or dancing blissfully together in a long and enjoyable feast. So they need people, and they need friends.

And thinking further, try this experiment: For several days consider whether or not a human being can actually eradicate all suffering. Is it possible? Especially we all must face the challenges of earning a living. So work is probably one of those arenas in which we need to make careful "choices and avoidances" but even then there will be challenges.

Now a hypothetical...Let's say you are living a serene life of retirement and living in a nice environment with everything you need. There will still be "small pebbles of life disturbing the tranquil pond" of your psyche - this is what is it to be alive. But with wisdom we learn to not "freak out" about things.

So only the gods live a perfectly serene existence without pain or suffering.