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Posts by Kalosyni
REMINDER: SUNDAY WEEKLY ZOOM - December 21, 2025 -12:30 PM EDT - Ancient Text Study: De Rerum Natura by Lucretius -- Meeting is open to Level 03 members and above.
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I've just posted this new entry on my "21st Century Epicurean" blog...
Here is an excerpt from the opening:
QuoteDisplay MoreDoes the Epicurean lifestyle lead to a happier life?
I would like to present the idea that happiness is a practice that can be learned. So it is possible to enhance one's happiness by doing and thinking certain things.
In several of the Epicurean verses we see indications of the feeling tone present in an Epicurean lifestyle:
"One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy." (VS 41)
"Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness." (VS 52)
"It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of." (VS 17)
Consider the feeling tone of your last three days. What kinds of feelings predominated?
A Happy Life: the Emotional Feeling Tone of the Epicurean LifestyleDoes the Epicurean lifestyle lead to a happier life? I would like to present the idea that happiness is a practice that can be learned. ...epicureanphilosophyblog.blogspot.com -
Is there a zoom group this evening? If so how do I join?
Welcome to the forum Yudaimon. Currently our Zoom meetings are only open to Level 3 members. There is a vetting process which takes about one to two months, before Level 1 members are promoted to Level 3. We would love to get to know you better first here on the forum through your posts, in this thread or in other threads. You can ask questions or comment. During the next 2 months we will evaluate your participation, and then at the end of 2 months time we will decide whether or not you are ready for being promoted to Level 3.
You can start out by telling us a little about yourself, your background, any studies of philosophy or specific interests in Epicurus or any questions you might have about the Epicurean philosophy -- please share here in this thread.
Looking forward to hearing from you
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Wow! Thanks Cleveland Okie ...This is a very interesting podcast presentation! -- some areas were buried in 50 feet of volcanic ash/debris...the papyri were discovered in 1752...untold numbers of scrolls were burned or thrown away before someone realised what they were! (this is from the first few minutes and I hope to listen to the rest of it still).
...found out about the Emily Austin book, "Living for Pleasure." I bought it and I'm reading it now, very interesting so far. After I finish it, I'll look for comments about it in this forum.
For ease of reference here is a link to the section of the forum set up for Austin's book:
Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life - Emily Austin
We may do a Zoom "book reading/review" starting end of April or beginning of May (or maybe in the fall).
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Don, Wow, that is amazing!
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Oh that link is cool!!
FYI:
P.Herc. 89 = Philodemus, On God's.
P.Herc. 118 = Philodemus, On Epicurus.
P.Herc. 1005= Philodemus, To... (This is the end one with the Tetrapharmakos in)
P.Herc. 1044 = Life is Philonides of Laodicea
Are you able to read them? I only have android, so seemed like it wouldn't open for me. What was on there?
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I found this interesting article, newly published, with tips and also compares Herculaneum vs Pompeii. Perfect for "armchair travelers" (such as myself) ...or others who may hope to some day travel to Italy. ( Martin)
The Villa de Papyri is in Herculaneum, but I am not certain if that is open.
This article is long (be sure to keep scrolling past the many pictures/ads, as there are lots of details).
How to visit Herculaneum (and 3 huge reasons why you should) - Helen on her HolidaysVisiting Herculaneum, a Roman city destroyed at the same time as Pompeii, is really rewarding. Here's how to visit Herculaneum on your trip to Italy.www.helenonherholidays.com -
In Letter to Menoeceus, it says:
"...train yourself to hold that death is nothing to us, because good and evil consist in sensation, and death is the removal of sensation. A correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable — not because it gives you an unbounded span of time, but because it removes the desire for immortality. There is nothing terrifying in life to someone who truly understands that there is nothing terrifying in the absence of life."
Joshua brought up during the last podcast the phrase "accustom yourself" to hold that death is nothing to us -- and that can be contemplating that the dying process is a natural process. And we have modern medicine now to help with the process.
Here is a very good article about the process of dying -- death due to incurable illness in old age.
QuoteIt's hard to ask your doctor what dying will be like. Death is a reality everyone will face one way or another. If you have an incurable illness, knowing what to expect as your body shuts down helps you prepare for as "good" of death as possible.
I think it is important to contemplate this, and to let this be motivating toward living a full and pleasurable life.
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Stoics tend to see the happy life as erasing frustrations ((a)pathe).
What would be the alternative in Epicurus' philosophy?Here is the Vatican Saying 21:
"Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."
For Epicureans it is important to pay attention to needs -- needs of the body and needs for happiness. And to find practical solutions -- by asking "What is in my power to change?"
And in the Letter to Menoeceus: "...keep in mind that some desires are natural whereas others are groundless; that among the natural desires some are natural and necessary whereas others are merely natural; and that among the necessary desires some are necessary for happiness, some for physical health, and some for life itself."
So for practical application, from modern psychology:
Painful emotions and painful feelings are like a warning light that a need of the body or of the soul is not being met, or we are in danger of losing something we believe that we need. The problem being that when we only have one way to meet a need, than we are stuck if we don't get that one way (or can't use that one strategy). So getting unstuck requires us to see other strategies for meeting our needs, as well as making peace with situations in which can't be changed.
Signs that a need is going unmet, or may go unmet in the future:
sadness
frustration
anger
fear
anxiety
worry
Signs that a need is being met effectively:
happy
enthusiastic
thankful
peaceful
satisfied/content
Some universal human needs:
food/water/shelter/clothing
safety/trust
competence/skills
rest/play
belonging/understanding
respect/consideration
autonomy/choice
etc.
I haven't yet studied Philodemus, so can't add anything from that.
Emotions that cause suffering (pain ? )such as anxiety/obsessive-compulsive disorders should probably be countered as the Stoics or CBT envisage, but perhaps in a milder form?
OCD is a complex issue and is a separate issue than just anxiety (and different than phobias) -- there is probably a lot about what kinds of modalities of modern psychotherapy work for these issues, but haven't researched.
In another thread, there was something about CBT having some problems, and could make some conditions worse.
QuoteDisplay MorePhilosophical concerns with CBT methods
The methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.[225]
Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.[215]
Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.[218]
Side effects
CBT is generally regarded as having very few if any side effects.[226][227] Calls have been made by some for more appraisal of possible side effects of CBT.[228] Many randomized trials of psychological interventions like CBT do not monitor potential harms to the patient.[229] In contrast, randomized trials of pharmacological interventions are much more likely to take adverse effects into consideration.[230]
A 2017 meta-analysis revealed that adverse events are not common in children receiving CBT and, furthermore, that CBT is associated with fewer dropouts than either placebo or medications.[231] Nevertheless, CBT therapists do sometimes report 'unwanted events' and side effects in their outpatients with "negative wellbeing/distress" being the most frequent.[232]
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I would recommend studying and discussing the Letter to Menoceus, the Principal Doctrines, The Vatican Sayings, and the Torquatus section of Cicero's On Ends.
And also be sure to interpret everything in accord with the following aphorisms (and these will help you avoid the danger of over-emphasis on "minimalism"/"tranquility")VS14
I just realized that VS21 is another very important guide for interpretation of the Epicurean philosophy, and to point out that it is more than just necessary desires that we seek to fulfill -- and therefore a "simple life" of "minimalism" and "tranquility" is not the Epicurean goal. (And btw what I mean by "tranquility" is a life of dawdling or being like a stick in the mud, and so probably another word other than tranquility is needed.) And the true goal could also be better understood by the word "engaged" -- actively engaged with pursuing pleasure.
Vatican Saying 21: "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."
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Thanks Cassius for pointing that out, and this interesting quote:
QuoteThe methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.[225]
Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.[215]
Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.[218]
It would be good to evaluate any of the Epicurean verses in light of two factors:
1) Does this Epicurean verse allow me to see and exercise my free will, and does it help me see that I have multiple options for solving problems in my life?
2) Does this Epicurean verse confound (confuse or mix up) the symptoms (my feelings/emotions) with the causes? (Try to get rid of symptoms without understanding the causes).
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As an Epicurean, I recommend taking Epicurus' advice over Wikipedia's.
Good point! And also I think Cassius would say a certified therapist would be recommended for really difficult problems, since there are limits to Epicurean philosophy, and it is not a therapy, and thus cannot take the place of a certified therapist.
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Yes and I think audio material is great for "newbies"...for ease of reference here are some links:
Part: 1
Part 2:
And the YouTube version which is all in one piece:
Also, this particular YouTube was helpful for me when I first started out:
"Major Aspects of Epicurean Philosophy" (Cassius gives an overview)
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Friendship is an important aspect of happiness and well-being. And, in marriage, friendship is considered very important now in our current times. Some people do not have any close friends other than their spouse. Having friends (other than a spouse) is especially difficult for those people who move to different cities for career changes. Of course this puts a lot expectation and pressure on marriage. It will be inevitable that differences in opinion will arise, and knowing how to work through that is of utmost importance.
Here are some links to some very good information which explains a major source of conflict in marriage -- if one (or both partners) are "other-blamers" -- how to recognize it and what to do.
QuoteOther-Blamers manage the feeling of shame with a lack of accountability. The key behavioral sign is hyper-vigilance to and over-reactivity to criticism. Other-Blamers tend to argue or attack to keep any taint of blame from landing close.
While these strategies provide comfort to the individual, they are counterproductive in relationships. Other-Blaming is often at the root of relationship problems, because of the reluctance to admit fault.QuoteIn some people, the experience of shame triggers a fearful response, overwhelming the cognitive functioning of the brain, leading to fear-based behaviors of reacting rather than responding thoughtfully.
They are highly motivated to manage their shame and fear and respond with three predictable and easily identified behavioral responses called Counterproductive Shame Management Strategies:
- Other-Blaming
- Self-Blaming
- Blame Avoiding
The simple key to understanding the three Shame Management Strategies is the answer to this question: How does the person handle criticism?
When held accountable for a behavior, what does the person do?
- blame others
- blame themselves, or
- preemptively try to avoid blame
Be sure to read both of following links, if you are interested in learning more.
Improve Your Relationships: Overcome Low Self-Worth • Harper WestStop arguing too much in your relationship. How to improve relationships by understanding the impact of shame. Anger and arguments may be caused by poor shame…www.harperwest.coHow Do You Handle Shame? Learning Self Acceptance • Harper WestDo you want to learn to handle shame better? How do you handle embarrassment? By blame yourself, blame others, avoid blame? Learning self-acceptance improves…www.harperwest.co -
I created a flow chart to illustrate possible ways to deal with the feeling of frustration.
Wikipedia: "In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition [or unexpected obstacles to goal fulfillment], related to anger, annoyance, and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked." (Wikipedia article).
Is the following chart helpful? Is there anything which should be added or changed?
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His sweetest quote on pain management is useful to me in acknowledging the power of remembrance,
Yes, and everyone will have varying results in how they understand and use Epicurean ephorisms, so it could be a very individualized process. Perhaps everyone should make their own collection of what they find helpful, as an exercise and to assist in learning.
As for myself...there is now so much on the internet. And all I have to do is type in whatever problem I am encountering and then lots of practical advice comes up for me on various websites. I even can recommend Wikipedia, when I looked up the word "frustration".
QuoteIn psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition, related to anger, annoyance and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked.[1][2][3] There are two types of frustration: internal and external. Internal frustration may arise from challenges in fulfilling personal goals, desires, instinctual drives and needs, or dealing with perceived deficiencies, such as a lack of confidence or fear of social situations. Conflict, such as when one has competing goals that interfere with one another, can also be an internal source of frustration or annoyance and can create cognitive dissonance. External causes of frustration involve conditions outside an individual's control, such as a physical roadblock, a difficult task, or the perception of wasting time.[4] There are multiple ways individuals cope with frustration
Frustration - Wikipediaen.m.wikipedia.org -
3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.
QuoteFeelings: emotions or sensations, free of thought and story. These are to be distinguished from thoughts (e.g., “I feel I didn’t get a fair deal”) and from words colloquially used as feelings but which convey what we think we are (e.g., “inadequate”), how we think others are evaluating us (e.g., “unimportant”), or what we think others are doing to us (e.g., “misunderstood”, “ignored”).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_CommunicationYou can read all about "faux feelings" here:
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Eikadistes, as I look over it some more:
1. my concern continues to be that these will end up dealing with "symptoms" and not "causes" of feelings and emotions. Also, you'll want to have your sense of anger working correctly, so it is there for you when you need it, and you should not be trying to tamp it down. So a truly emotionally healthy person will feel a rainbow of feelings and emotions, but they will not be perplexed, overwhelmed by, or stuck in their feelings/emotions. There will be a healthy flow. And healthy anger when it does arise won't be a big blowout, but a recognition of bodily feelings. And so...We need not the appearance of health but actual true health (VS54)
2. Verses taken out of context: -- the first listing under "persecuted" from Letter to Menoeceus; -- VS62 under "anger" is specifically between parents and children (perhaps there are others).
3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.
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I want to be sure my anger is directed at the proper objects, and then I want to work as hard as I can to resolve that problem clearly and directly, even if the other person or people disagree.
Exactly! And so understanding the difference between protective use of force vs punitive use of force is very important, and will lead to better future outcomes.
QuoteProtective use of force vs. Punitive use of force
Protective vs. punitive use of force (difference is in intention) protective force's intention protects from injuries or accidents or misuse of someone's rights and or loss of life. Punitive use of force has an intention to change the other person through punishment or reward, to teach how they "should" do.
...If the intention is only to protect my own need, then it’s justified. That’s the only time force is justified. I must have no desire to make the other person suffer.
https://en.nvcwiki.com/index.php/Prot…ve_use_of_force
And this would support: "Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good."
On second reading, I am now thinking that Kalosyni's issue is not so much with Nate's formatting as it is with Epicurus' content
In this type of document things could be "taken out of context" (how many Christian preachers do this with the Bible?).
And we don't know in what manner Epicurus taught. All we have is what later people (after Epicurus) copied or wrote down, and it is impossible to rule out that they "re-interpreted" things.
Diogenes Laertius lived in the 3rd Century CE (Wikipedia)
Epicurus lived in 341 - 270 BCE -- here is a link to a graphic timeline comparing several other historical figures who wrote on Epicurean philosophy.
So...we must understand the foundations of Epicurean philosophy and then everything must be viewed in light of the very basic foundations -- and ask this: "Does it lead to pleasure, joy and happiness?"
Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com
Here is a list of suggested search strategies:
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