Quote from Godfrey

"Measuring" brings to mind the "measuring stick" (Canon). Is that more than coincidence? Is there a relation in the Greek, or is it just a quirk of the English?

It does seem to me that the faculties of the Canon are quite useful in judgments of the type being discussed.

On thinking further, back in ancient Greece divination was common (and I need to do more research to find out more about how common it was). So having a method of making good choices and avoidances would have been of utmost importance in order to counter any urges for using superstitious divination.

In last night's Zoom meeting, we discussed this Homeric tale (of a drug which removes all pain and suffering), and a question came up about no longer needing friends. This morning I was researching something else, and happened upon this (which is only the abstract):

Quote

Are Friends and Friendship Worthwhile to the Advanced Epicurean?

Commentators usually understand the Epicureans to take friends and friendship to be worthwhile because they help us to eliminate and/or manage our bodily and/or mental pains and thus come closer to achieving tranquility. However, this understanding leaves unexplained why friends and friendship might be worthwhile to an advanced Epicurean with few or no pains to manage or eliminate. In this paper, I remedy this deficiency by offering three explanations for why friends and friendship could and maybe would remain worthwhile even to the Epicurean who achieves tranquility. Along the way, I explore some problems with each explanation and consider ways to overcome them. Notwithstanding these problems, I conclude that friends and friendship could and perhaps would be worthwhile even to the Epicurean with few or no pains.

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/1…05/html?lang=de

Now this article excerpt also goes to show the depth of misunderstanding of the philosophy. The correct understanding is to think about how Epicureans aim to live as blissfully as the gods. Do the ancient gods sit alone in quietude? No, they are always sitting or dancing blissfully together in a long and enjoyable feast. So they need people, and they need friends.

And thinking further, try this experiment: For several days consider whether or not a human being can actually eradicate all suffering. Is it possible? Especially we all must face the challenges of earning a living. So work is probably one of those arenas in which we need to make careful "choices and avoidances" but even then there will be challenges.

Now a hypothetical...Let's say you are living a serene life of retirement and living in a nice environment with everything you need. There will still be "small pebbles of life disturbing the tranquil pond" of your psyche - this is what is it to be alive. But with wisdom we learn to not "freak out" about things.

So only the gods live a perfectly serene existence without pain or suffering.

Quote from Don

There is no absolute quantification of pleasure points or pain values. Choice and rejection is an art, not a science.

Maybe it *would* be better to retire that phrase. "Calculus" implies some kind of single answer to the calculation.

"Choice and rejection" is not a math problem. It's a personal decision

I like the phrase "choices and avoidances"...and even if it is a long phrase, it is very clear what is being talked about.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Nate

Symmetresis" is the word I prefer to use in the place of "hedonic calculus."

That post cries out for explanation, Nate!

I Googled that word, and see it on several site's index listings, but when I click on those pages cannot find a direct translation or reference as to where that word originates, so I am very curious Eikadistes

As I was thinking further, I found some articles which you can read in this post:

Post

Hedonic Motivation - Seeking pleasure/reward and avoiding pain/punishment

This Wikipedia article: Hedonic Motivation is interesting:

[…]

And a Frontiers article: Truth, control, and value motivations: the “what,” “how,” and “why” of approach and avoidance (which I have not yet finished reading but wanted to include):

[…]

Kalosyni

March 29, 2023 at 9:46 AM

And thinking further that we as Epicureans are choosing to put a greater emphasis on seeking rewards and pleasure rather than on fearing punishment or pain. So while it is natural to be motivated by both pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, it can actually be a sign of poor mental health if one is only focused on avoiding pain.

Quote

The latest research from the Bo Li Lab suggests that an imbalance between the push-pull of GABAergic and glutamatergic VP neurons skews "positive vs. negative motivation and may explain behaviors associated with psychiatric disorders like depression or anxiety."

People suffering from major depressive disorder (MDD) are often unmotivated to seek out things that once gave them pleasure. Those of us who are prone to generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) often go to extreme lengths to avoid situations that seem threatening.

Source

Perhaps one day there will be something called "pleasure therapy".

Hoping that all of what we are posting in this thread may give some food for thought and inspiration for Eikadistes to create more fun memes, as he always comes up with such imaginative ones.

This Wikipedia article: Hedonic Motivation is interesting:

Quote

Hedonic motivation refers to the influence of a person's pleasure and pain receptors on their willingness to move towards a goal or away from a threat. This is linked to the classic motivational principle that people approach pleasure and avoid pain,^[1] and is gained from acting on certain behaviors that resulted from esthetic and emotional feelings such as: love, hate, fear, joy, etc.^[2] According to the hedonic principle, our emotional experience can be thought of as a gauge that ranges from bad to good and our primary motivation is to keep the needle on the gauge as close to good as possible.^[3]

Historically, approach and avoidance motivation have been linked to the hedonic characteristics of pleasure and pain.^[1] The root word hedonic comes from the Greek word for “sweet”, which means relating to or characterized by pleasure.^[1] This is interesting because even though hedonic motivation incorporates the pursuit of pleasure as well as the avoidance of painful situations, the concept has been traditionally linked to the positive connotation of pleasure.^[2] For example, hedonic goods are bought so that the consumer may gain pleasure and enjoyment from the good,^[4] and value experiences are also viewed as hedonic experiences.^[1]

And a Frontiers article: Truth, control, and value motivations: the “what,” “how,” and “why” of approach and avoidance (which I have not yet finished reading but wanted to include):

Quote

The hedonic principle—the desire to approach pleasure and avoid pain—is frequently presumed to be the fundamental principle upon which motivation is built. In the past few decades, researchers have enriched our understanding of how approaching pleasure and avoiding pain differ from each other. However, more recent empirical and theoretical work delineating the principles of motivation in humans and non-human animals has shown that not only can approach/avoidance motivations themselves be further distinguished into promotion approach/avoidance and prevention approach/avoidance, but that approaching pleasure and avoiding pain requires the functioning of additional distinct motivations—the motivation to establish what is real (truth) and the motivation to manage what happens (control). Considering these additional motivations in the context of moral psychology and animal welfare science suggests that these less-examined motives may themselves be fundamental to a comprehensive understanding of motivation, with major implications for the study of the “what,” “how,” and “why” of human and non-human approach and avoidance behavior.

The hedonic principle has existed for at least as long as we have had the capacity to write down our thoughts about ourselves, being recorded, for example, in the teachings of the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus. In modern times, the principle reached its fullest expression as a foundation for human psychology and ethics in Bentham’s (1789/2007) influential An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation: “Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain, and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do” (Bentham, 1789/2007).

Quote from Cassius

But even as we debate this practical angle, the ultimate philosophical point remains and I think we all agree on it -- that in the end life is a balance between pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, but while we sometimes choose pain in order to pursue pleasure, we never set "avoiding pain" as the primary overriding purpose of life.

Yes, I agree with this. And it is all much more complex than this - and in certain situations we really do need to be sensitive to the balance of pain and pleasure that we feel inside our bodies.

I was pondering today, that there is a strange paradox in the pursuit of pleasure -- it is as if nature gives us a reward to reinforce certain behaviors.

For example: When we are hungry there is pain present from the hunger. The stomach growls and there is a slight feeling of stomach acid in the empty stomach prompting us to eat to relieve the discomfort. As we eat, there is enjoyment of the taste and smell of the food to reinforce the behavior of eating. When we get full, there is the sensation of fullness which signals that it is time to stop eating, and depending on the level of fullness can cause varying levels of discomfort. Of course we can eat at times when we are no longer hungry and enjoy the variation of the experience of taste and smell. But eating more than necessary can lead to a sluggish feeling (not to mention weight gain). When food becomes a source of emotional comfort, we are also potentially eating too many calories (and we may be taking the easy way out of a situation instead of doing the harder work of finding ways to get emotional support or activities which relieve the pain of boredom).

If we know how (or learn) to stop eating when we are at the right level of fullness, then that in itself can bring a kind of pleasure, since we will have relieved the hunger and also have good energy (and not feel sluggish).

So what I am saying is that there is a complex mix of pleasure and pain - removing pain and adding pleasure. And there may be other areas in life that have this interplay.

Quote from Cassius

Not all of us are going to rank the pleasures of risk and danger as highly as Knievel did, but since there is no absolute standard of how you *should* rank your pleasures, I would say Epicurus would have no issue with Knievel's choices, at least on an abstract level.

I can't agree with you here, because:

PD16: "Chance steals only a bit into the life of a wise person: for throughout the complete span of his life the greatest and most important matters have been, are, and will be directed by the power of reason."

I feel certain that Epicurus would not approve of Knievel's choices and actions, because he was clearly leaving it up to chance, when he said he knew that several of his jumps were questionable but he went ahead and did it anyway. And he had a hard time getting insurance. He was badly injured with broken bones countless times (and I would guess he probably was addicted to pain medication, though didn't read the full Wikipedia article). He was definitely into it for the fame and the money.

That is an interesting analogy, and if it was a choice between certain death and less likely death but still a highly risky maneuver, then you gotta choose.

But this doesn't show how we take into account that the ability to maximize pleasure requires us to stay alive. There is no pleasure when you are dead. And that means that Epicureans are not going to be daredevils like Evel Knievel. So the sensory pleasure of flying through the air and the "vain" desire to be able to say you successfully jumped a wide ravine will be set aside, and we would choose to pursue wiser pleasures.

I was just thinking about how we may need varying study levels, which will depend upon how much time a person has available:

-- Basic Understanding - simplified summary of key concepts (the least you need to know)

-- Moderate - use of an outlined study guide (a thorough overview)

-- Advanced - further study after completion of the study guide (on-going study and research)

Quote from Scott

I think you bring up an important point, Kalosyni. I personally plan to put a good deal of effort into understanding EP, and I've only begun. I can already see how incredibly much value there is in this philosophy, but with my brief introduction so far, it is obvious there is a LOT to figure out and understand. And there are those who will put in the time, and who have the ability to digest and work with this complex material. But those are few.

I doubt this philosophy was so wildly successful for 7 centuries without being able to be presented in simpler form, easy to understand and remember (of course from there, individuals could continue to learn more as they were motivated, but most folks then and now would only dive in if initial content made sense and drew one in to learn more).

If only we had more of the original content! Some of this must surely have existed. Since we don't have that (and even any we might have already or will yet find would have been prepared for presentation to ancient cultures, not to people in our modern world), I agree it would seem worthwhile today to develop basic materials that make this philosophy engaging and accessible to as wide an audience as reasonably possible.

We are making good progress on a 7-Part Study Guide (which could also be used for a "Basics of Epicureanism Seven Week Course").

remikit Welcome to the forum!

Quote from remikit

I was intrigued by the article and it reminded me of a long ago college read for a Victorian Lit class - Marius the Epicurean, written by Walter Pater

Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that, and I found Marius the Epicurean on Wikipedia, and after skimming through it I can see that it is very different than how we here on the forum understand Epicureanism. Marius the Epicurean has too much emphasis on asceticism (and looks to be heavily influenced by Platonism and Stoicism also). I would advise that you set any past recollection aside and start afresh.

Our take on pleasure as the goal is open to everything so long as it doesn't cause harm or harm others. So while ascesticism could be pleasurable for some people, it is not in the least bit the goal or the path for every Epicurean.

My own understanding of Epicureanism: remember to seize the day, not recklessly but always in a manner which results in the best outcome. I base my choices or avoidances on what will bring an outcome of pleasure for a "sweet life". Cultivate friendships -- the importance of having supportive friends who also have this same way of navigating the world.

Here is a presentation by Cassius, giving an overview you might find helpful:

And you may enjoy A Few Days in Athens, a fictionalized account of a young philosophy student in the time of Epicurus.

And feel free to ask questions

Curt welcome to the forum!

Quote from Curt

I’m just trying to find happiness in life, to hopefully alter my view along this endeavor.

Yes, sounds like something we all want. And yet, if you don't mind, I am curious what you mean when you use the word "happiness"? If you had to be more specific about it...

What specific kinds of feelings do you want to have more of, and in which specific situations?

...at work? (maybe engagement, enthusiasm, etc.)

...with friends? (maybe love, understanding, enjoyment, etc.)

....with family? (maybe closeness, appreciation, fun, etc.)

...or in other situations?

I just found this thread, which might be of interest to you:

Thread

On "Happiness" As An Abstraction / "Pleasure" As a Feeling

[Admin note 1/11/21 - Something has happened the image from the autarkist blog referenced below. I'll try to rconstruct what the image was, but in the meantime the article referred to is probably this one.]



Some time ago Hiram pointed to a book by Lampe entitled "The Birth of Hedonism" and made this statement on his Autarkist blog:

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/1594/



I have been wanting to track that down and finally today I found the page which is being referenced here:

…

Cassius

October 1, 2019 at 12:13 PM

@PaulO welcome to the forum!

We can only guess why Epicurus chose to have the Garden in a private location (and not a public place like the Stoa). We can guess about the causes that lead Epicurus to decide to not teach in public, such as the controversial nature of some of his teachings. Another possiblity is that Epicurus was a HSP (20% of all people are).

It is very possible that at least 50% or more of us here on this forum have heightened senses and are highly sensitive people who at times experience sensory overload.

There are times I experience sensory overload in a noisy, crowded room. Also, I have noticed that I can often hear things (like alarms or a cell phone ringing off in a distant room, etc) that others are unable to hear. I am also sensitive to certain scents, usually ones that contain harsh chemicals or harsh perfumes in which the scent "hits me" over and over (it seems natural products don't bother me).

Here is very good article (link is inside the following quote) explaining that there are multiple reasons why sensory overload occurs:

Quote

What causes sensory overload?

The input from your environment doesn’t stop at your senses. Several areas of the brain process the sensations you experience. When this processing can’t keep up with new input, the result is sensory overload.

The reasons for this mismatch between input and sensory integration can vary. A busy environment might be the culprit. For example:

• The person experiencing the overload might be tired or hungry, so their brain circuitry might not work as well as usual.
• Some people’s neurology might be sensitive because of mental health conditions or medical issues.

Sensory overload activates a fight, flight, or freeze response in which you try to escape triggers. This is when you see signs like meltdowns in children and irritability in adults.

It’s more than just an aversion to loud noises. Sensory overload can affect any one of your senses, such as:

Read more about it here:

https://psychcentral.com/health/sensory-overload

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And here is another good one...I may have already posted about HSP's elsewhere, but posting about it again (link is inside the following quote):

Quote

A highly sensitive person (HSP) is a neurodivergent individual who is thought to have an increased or deeper central nervous system sensitivity to physical, emotional, or social stimuli.1 Some refer to this as having sensory processing sensitivity, or SPS for short.

While highly sensitive people are sometimes negatively described as being “too sensitive," it is a personality trait that brings both strengths and challenges.

The term highly sensitive person was first coined by psychologists Elaine Aron and Arthur Aron in the mid-1990s. Elaine Aron published her book, "The Highly Sensitive Person," in 1996, and interest in the concept has continued to grow since then.

Read more here:

https://www.verywellmind.com/highly-sensiti…-stress-4126393

We don't have any evidence that meditation was part of Epicurean practices. But I can completely testify that meditation has helped me deal with the internal feelings that arise during overload. If anyone struggles with this, I would recommend trying out a mindfullness meditation group (a group setting with a skilled meditation teacher is a must, for getting the most out of meditation and learning how to deal with this).

And most importantly never feeling guilty about enjoying quietude!

Just for the record, there is nothing wrong with intense pleasure. Overindulgence which leads to pain is generally avoided. Epicureans do eat more than just bread and water, but if that is all there is they will be fine with it.

The following Epicurean verses which further shed light on what is incorrect in the above text by IDRlabs:

PD8: "No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves."

VS21: "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."

VS59: "The stomach is not insatiable, as most people say; instead the opinion that the stomach needs unlimited filling is false."

VS:71 "Ask this question of every desire: what will happen to me if the object of desire is achieved, and what if not?"

From Letter to Menoeceus: "Fourth, we hold that self-reliance is a great good — not so that we will always have only a few things but so that if we do not have much we will rejoice in the few things we have, firmly persuaded that those who need luxury the least enjoy it the most, and that everything natural is easily obtained whereas everything groundless is hard to get. So simple flavors bring just as much pleasure as a fancy diet if all pain from true need has been removed, and bread and water give the highest pleasure when someone in need partakes of them. Training yourself to live simply and without luxury brings you complete health, gives you endless energy to face the necessities of life, better prepares you for the occasional luxury, and makes you fearless no matter your fortune in life."

VS63: "Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess."

For further reading visit:
https://epicuruscollege.com/coursematerial…NotTranquility/

Goblin welcome to the forum!

Jane welcome to the forum!

I've just posted this new entry on my "21st Century Epicurean" blog...

Here is an excerpt from the opening:

Quote

Does the Epicurean lifestyle lead to a happier life?

I would like to present the idea that happiness is a practice that can be learned. So it is possible to enhance one's happiness by doing and thinking certain things.

In several of the Epicurean verses we see indications of the feeling tone present in an Epicurean lifestyle:

"One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy." (VS 41)

"Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness." (VS 52)

"It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of." (VS 17)

Consider the feeling tone of your last three days. What kinds of feelings predominated?

Display More

A Happy Life: the Emotional Feeling Tone of the Epicurean Lifestyle

Does the Epicurean lifestyle lead to a happier life? I would like to present the idea that happiness is a practice that can be learned. ...

epicureanphilosophyblog.blogspot.com

Quote from Yudaimon

Is there a zoom group this evening? If so how do I join?

Welcome to the forum Yudaimon. Currently our Zoom meetings are only open to Level 3 members. There is a vetting process which takes about one to two months, before Level 1 members are promoted to Level 3. We would love to get to know you better first here on the forum through your posts, in this thread or in other threads. You can ask questions or comment. During the next 2 months we will evaluate your participation, and then at the end of 2 months time we will decide whether or not you are ready for being promoted to Level 3.

You can start out by telling us a little about yourself, your background, any studies of philosophy or specific interests in Epicurus or any questions you might have about the Epicurean philosophy -- please share here in this thread.

Looking forward to hearing from you

Wow! Thanks Cleveland Okie ...This is a very interesting podcast presentation! -- some areas were buried in 50 feet of volcanic ash/debris...the papyri were discovered in 1752...untold numbers of scrolls were burned or thrown away before someone realised what they were! (this is from the first few minutes and I hope to listen to the rest of it still).

Quote from Cleveland Okie

...found out about the Emily Austin book, "Living for Pleasure." I bought it and I'm reading it now, very interesting so far. After I finish it, I'll look for comments about it in this forum.

For ease of reference here is a link to the section of the forum set up for Austin's book:

Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life - Emily Austin

We may do a Zoom "book reading/review" starting end of April or beginning of May (or maybe in the fall).

Don, Wow, that is amazing!