Posts by Kalosyni

Thanks Pacatus, after reading your story, I added in something about feeling "different" to the table

Here is a list of possible worries with possible practical solutions and Epicurean philosophy contemplations. Epicurean philosophy may not have direct answers to all of these worries, but understanding the nature of the world and the cosmos as being material (and not supernatural) will lead to a very practical and matter-of-fact way of dealing with life's problem. I will update this with a few more references to the philosophy soon. Do you see any "worries" that are missing?

Quote from Don

If I see a tornado in the distance, having anxiety about it doesn't help me or anyone around me.

Here is an actual problem: I have a type of mole that I should go in to a dermatologist to make sure it isn't cancer. But I wonder why I keep procrastinating. I ought be more worried. So here is an example of how there can be healthy anxiety/worry. This discussion makes me realize that I need to stop telling myself there is nothing to worry about. I am going make an appointment this week.

Quote from Little Rocker

Which brings me to the question about anxiety in the Epicurean life. That's not an issue we can settle, though we benefit from continuing to discuss it, but I tend to split the difference between Don and Cassius.

Yes, I was thinking that "split the difference between Don and Cassius" also. And then we will need to ask ourselves "Is this a healthy worry or an unhealthy worry?" and also "should I be worrying more than I am?"

Quote from waterholic

Case in point is friendship, which plays a central role in the Epicurean philosophy as one of the main ways of achieving tranquility through safety.

@waterholic, it sounds like perhaps you see tranquility as an important goal within Epicureanism? Here on the forum some of us find that to be a good goal, where as others of us insist on seeing a broader understanding of pleasure -- or as I personally like to think of it -- "a sweet life" is the goal. (So we are often having to clarify and redefine things, and perhaps things can get confusing).

There are several places within Epicurean philosophy in which it appears that tranquility is the goal (such as in the Letter to Meneoceus). However, in this forum we attempt to examine the big picture and when we do so then we are able to interpret the Epicurean goal as simply "pleasure" -- and this pleasure also includes some tranquility. So instead of tranquility being an end, it is a tool for pleasure. ( Cassius maybe we need to set up a chart to explain this better?).

I could say more about whether or not "tranquility" was possible in Epicurus' time (since there was often the looming threat of brutal war and political strife). And now in our own time there are many things which can get keep us up at night worrying about the future. And I believe there are ways to deal with all of this.

For our current times, I would say also that friendship provides a kind of sweetness in life (and perhaps less security) -- so friendship is a tool for pleasure, which begins in mutual benefit, but over time evolves into mutual appreciation and enjoyment of getting to see, know, and experience another human being. It is true that in our times friendships can be somewhat transitory. When I moved from the West Coast to the Southeast of the US, the friendships that I had there are now altered forever (though I still keep in touch with a few, it is a very distant feeling of connection).

I believe that one needs to "keep the faith" so to speak -- keep the faith in friendships, and that friendship is possible.

I envision Epicurean philosophy becoming a helpful tool for building community and friendship. We still have lots to do to prepare the teaching materials before we can create a program in which to introduce people to the philosophy. The materials also need to include how to create and build communities. These communities would be more like "churches" or a club/society.

In the meantime you might like to check out this thread here which has some practical tips on friendship:

Thread

Cultivation of Friendship within Epicureanism

Principle Doctrine 27:

27.	Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship.

Principle Doctrine 27 is very important for a happy life. Modern life is busy with work and family, and yet we all still need friends. So it is very important to take the time and put the effort into making friends and maintaining friendships. Some people might be satisfied with the number and kind of friendships in their lives, but others…

Kalosyni

January 16, 2022 at 8:54 PM

Hi Everyone,

Meet-and-greet and open Epicurean philosophy discussion -- this next Saturday February 25th at 2pm US Eastern Time -- We have several members who have already given an RSVP to say they would like to attend. And this meeting is open to all forum members -- please RSVP here and we will get the Zoom link to you by private Forum message.

Quote from Cassius

The right track to what?

Here in this thread I want to point out an example of the complexity (and difficulty) of thought and language.

Quote from Don

I think Buddhists would say "to want less, to control and tamp down our desires" is the right track.

And Don has explained:

Quote from Don

Just to be clear, I'm saying the Buddhists are wrong too. They would say tamping down desires is the right track.

But maybe Cassius was asking this:

There is the question of the goal: "the right track to what?"

Just like there is the idea within religion of Perennial philosophy, so to we need to watch out for some like this when comparing Epicureanism to other philosophies (such as the philosophy of Buddhism). I once read a very good explaination about why the belief in "perennial philosophy" is incorrect -- since the end goal of each religion is actually slightly different.

Quote from Nate

I want to force the other "Hedonists" to defend their "brand" of Hedonism with apologetic adjectives, like, "Unrestrained Hedonism", or "YOLO Hedonism".

Looked up "YOLO" -- On Urban Dictionary, scroll down as you read a few of the entries, cause it is kind of funny:

Thing is...that if "you only live once", then you shouldn't screw it up, and so this points to incorrect thinking regarding the best way to pursue pleasure -- and a disregard for the future and the long-term outcome.

Thinking of phrases...perhaps...Epicureanism = "Best Life Hedonism"

I am a little late in weighing in on this, but my first reaction is "be careful". And could there be something "stoic" about being frugal -- that it leads to the elevation of a type of virtue -- and the perfection of "frugality"?

The definition of frugality on the internet:

fru·gal·i·ty

/fro͞oˈɡalədē/

noun

the quality of being economical with money or food; thriftiness.

"he scorned the finer things in life and valued frugality and simplicity"

synonyms: thriftiness, carefulness, scrimping and saving, conservation, good management, caution, prudence, providence, canniness, abstemiousness, abstinence, austerity, asceticism, self-discipline, restraint, moderation, puritanism, monasticism, monkishness, miserliness, meanness, parsimoniousness, niggardliness, close-fistedness, tight-fistedness, tightness, stinginess, sparingness

Note that the definition includes "asceticism" as a synonym.

I would say that it is important to think of yourself as possessing prudence as a tool for making good choices, rather than being "frugal". There aren't any hard and fast rules for a pleasurable and pleasant life, and we judge each situation uniquely according to our given resources.

Looked up the definition of "prudence":

pru·dence

/ˈpro͞odns/

noun

the quality of being prudent; cautiousness.

"we need to exercise prudence in such important matters"

synonyms: wisdom, judgment, good judgment, judiciousness, sagacity, shrewdness, advisability, common sense, sense, caution, cautiousness, care, carefulness, canniness, chariness, wariness, circumspection, far-sightedness, foresight, forethought, discretion, thrift, thriftiness, providence, good management, careful budgeting, economy, frugality, abstemiousness, forehandedness, sparingness

LOL...frugality is a synonym

This was interesting from the Wikipedia article on Diogenes Laertius:

Quote

English translations

Thomas Stanley's 1656 History of Philosophy adapts the format and content of Laertius' work into English, but Stanley compiled his book from a number of classical biographies of philosophers.^[36] The first complete English translation was a late 17th-century translation by ten different persons.^[37] A better translation was made by Charles Duke Yonge (1853),^[38] but although this was more literal, it still contained many inaccuracies.^[39] The next translation was by Robert Drew Hicks (1925) for the Loeb Classical Library,^[40] although it is slightly bowdlerized. A new translation by Pamela Mensch was published by Oxford University Press in 2018.^[41]

And before these translations, there is the question of how earlier manuscripts might have been affected (or altered) during the medieval ages.

Don do you have a JPASS?

I signed in but looks like I can only read the introduction and not the full book.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40858433?seq=1

Found this:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40858433

Quote from Don

Do we know what Burley said specifically?

No, and now I see he may not have been the author of the particular book De vita et moribus philosophorum, (Wikipedia says: "It was formerly attributed to Walter Burley, but is now recognized as anonymous. Its author may be known as "Pseudo-Walter Burley".^[3]) Though it would be interesting to see if we can find out more:

De vita et moribus philosophorum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I am still back on Diogenes Laertius, Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers,

and found this eyebrow raising qoute in Wikipedia:

Quote

He is criticized primarily for being overly concerned with superficial details of the philosophers' lives and lacking the intellectual capacity to explore their actual philosophical works with any penetration. However, according to statements of the 14th-century monk Walter Burley in his De vita et moribus philosophorum, the text of Diogenes seems to have been much fuller than that which we now possess.

Going back to the original question: What are the possible reasons why the list of 40 Principal Doctrines does not feature a statement explicitly stating pleasure to be the goal of life?

It is possible that there were more Doctrines than just 40? So that what we have from Diogenes Laetrius is incomplete?

It looks to me that Diogenes Laertius lists two goals -- and this excerpt shows a conflict. On one hand there is "health of the body and tranquility of the mind" but further down "pleasure is the alpha and omega".

Letter from Menoeceus (R.D Hicks):

Quote

We must also reflect that of desires some are
natural, others are groundless ; and that of the natural some are
necessary as well as natural, and some natural only. And of the
necessary desires some are necessary if we are to be happy, some if
the body is to be rid of uneasiness, some if we are even to live.
[128]
He who has a clear and certain understanding of these things will
direct every preference and aversion toward securing health of body
and tranquillity of mind, seeing that this is the sum and end of a
blessed life. For the end of all our actions is to be free from pain
and fear, and, when once we have attained all this, the tempest of the soul is laid ; seeing that the living creature has no need to go in search of something that is lacking,
nor to look for anything else by which the good of the soul and of
the body will be fulfilled. When we are pained because of the
absence of pleasure, then, and then only, do we feel the need of
pleasure. Wherefore we call pleasure the alpha and omega of a
blessed life.
[129]
Pleasure is our first and kindred good. It is the
starting-point of every choice and of every aversion, and to it we
come back, inasmuch as we make feeling the rule by which to judge of
every good thing. And since pleasure is our first and native good,
for that reason we do not choose every pleasure whatsoever, but
ofttimes pass over many pleasures when a greater annoyance ensues
from them.

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Quote from Cassius

Was the view that pleasure is the good so clearly a part of every Epicurean discussion that it became a habit to omit the statement as repetitive and taken for granted?

From Diogenes Laertius, Book 10:

"It is observed too that in his treatise On the Ethical End he writes in these

terms¹¹ : "I know not how to conceive the good, apart from the pleasures of taste, sexual pleasures, the pleasures of sound and the pleasures of beautiful form."

Happy Birthday SimonC:

Quote from Don

[82] But mental tranquillity* means being released from all these troubles and cherishing a continual remembrance of the highest and most important truths.

*ἀταραξία ataraxia (literally spelled ataraksia)

Quote from Godfrey

This reads to me like a definition....

Yes! And I think that this is very important. Because the "tranquility" within Epicureanism is a state of mind which is free from worry. It is not a state of the body (sitting in stillness). And it is not a state of mind which comes from doing something like Buddhist or Hindu meditations. Rather it comes from studying nature and reasoning out issues such as the nature of the natural world, the nature of god(s), the nature of death, using proper choices and avoidances, being confident in future health and security, being confident in support from friends and good neighbors, and self-sufficency.

So that when we do talk about "tranquility" within Epicureanism, it is a result caused by the mind's ability to impliment and reason through all the things I listed in the above paragraph. We would never say: let's concentrate hard to create some tranquility (that would be putting the cart before the horse) but instead we would simply focus on doing what needs to be done to remove worries from the mind (which may entail making some choices and taking action).

Principal Doctrine 2: "Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved is without sensation; and that which lacks sensation is nothing to us."

I found these questions which dive deeper into the meaning with in this phrase (presented in an article reviewing "Facing death : Epicurus and his critics", by James Warren.

Quote

 

The Epicurean belief that “death is nothing to us” is meant to correct the mistaken beliefs which people have that generate a fear of death. But as JW acutely notes, precisely what is fearful about death is ambiguous. On his analysis, it could include at least four analytically distinct fears: 1) the fear of being dead (namely, of not existing); 2) the fear that one will die (namely, apprehension about being mortal); 3) the fear of premature death (namely, of dying too young or before one has completed one’s goals in life); and 4) the fear of the process of dying. JW claims that “there is no single Epicurean ‘argument against death’. Rather, they had an armoury of arguments which could be deployed against the various different kinds of fear of death”

Quote from Don

Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this" ~ Epicurus,

So sounds like "calmness" coming through the practice of studying natural science?

Thinking about the larger context:

It possible that the "calm" within Epicureanism is refering to the feeling which arises when one thinks about "when death is, I will not be" and the "gods do not punish" (they are not the cause of thunder and lightening and they are not involved with humans).

So it is not a "mind-over-matter" like in Hinduism or Buddhism, but rather reasoning through those two things (death and the nature of the gods).

Is there any other practices in Epicureanism besides these two, that would lead to a feeling of "calm"?