Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Don

A big part of classical Epicurean practice in the original Garden through the time of Philodemus and beyond to even Oenoanda appears to be the one on one consultation or counseling between student and teacher to correct mistaken views and actions. Philodemus outlines this practice and its implementation and importance in On Frank Speech.

Is it not true that we have no evidence of what was happening in the original Garden regarding special consultation or counseling?

And perhaps Philodemus could have developed the ethical aspect much further than Epicurus, and all while remaining true to the core doctrines. I am wondering if perhaps during Philodemus' time there may have been less emphasis on natural physics/science and more emphasis on ethics...but yet I don't know if that is true or not.

Quote from Kalosyni

It does seem that it would be good for us to be on the same page with how we understand Epicurus...and the question of what was philosophy to Epicurus?

Can we take a guess as to the philosophy of Epicurus, and in his ancient school at the Garden, about what percentage of time would a student spend on "book learning" (in that time scroll reading) of natural physics/science and what percentage of time on understanding the role of pleasure and developing prudence? And what percentage of time was not spent on study but on actual enjoyment of life (and also brings up the question of work and how that would fit in to the schedule. Perhaps as a student you "paid" to attend by copying scrolls which were then sold to bring in money for the school, just guessing on that possibility).

But my point is that I now think that a much larger portion of the time was spent on natural physics/science.

In addition to what was said, perhaps this question: Is philosophy the love of knowledge or is it the love of wisdom?

And can we say that the goal in ancient times was to discover the best way to live a good life?

(And in comparison, that there are other goals in modern philosophy).

A question toward the very end came up: "What is philosophy" in which Joshua and I gave "two different sides of the same coin" and so I just want to post further on that because there is both modern and ancient views - how we as modern people define "philosophy" vs how Epicurus defined philopsophy.

Perhaps with my background of the study of art and psychology I am very much at a disadvantage compared to others here on the forum who have a background of the study of history, or law, when it comes to philosophy and grasping what it is understood to be (or defined).

It does seem that it would be good for us to be on the same page with how we understand Epicurus...and the question of what was philosophy to Epicurus?

The first two translations in post 4 seem to say that is it better to speak in oracles. And the third one says something very different: that is it better to be frank and straightforward than to speak in oracles - so this one would need a very close examination of the Greek words used.

VS29 -

"Employing frankness in my study of natural philosophy, I would prefer to proclaim in oracular fashion what is beneficial to men, even if no one is going to understand, rather than to assent to [common] opinions and so enjoy the constant praise which comes from the many." - Inwood and Gerson

VS29 -
"Speaking freely in my study of what is natural, I prefer to prophesize about what is good for all people, even if no one will understand me, rather than to accept common opinions and thereby reap the showers of praise that fall so freely from the great mass of men." - St. Andre

Thoughts:

I would interpret this as saying that Epicurus was saying a lot more than just "pleasure" is a natural guide. And I think "oracular fashion" means he was being very specific about what is beneficial and good.

We ran out of time last night in our Wednesday night discussion, so didn't really get much on this one. Curious for thoughts by Onenski, Joshua, and kochiekoch ...and anyone else.

VS28 - One must not approve of those who are excessively eager for friendship, nor those who are reluctant. But one must be willing to run some risks for the sake of friendship. - Inwood and Gerson

Thoughts:

If you are too eager you aren't paying attention to the risks. If you are too reluctant then your fears are getting in the way.

TauPhi you had a good interpretation last night in our study meeting...I am trying to remember what you said?

Quote from Cassius

It appears that Lucretius is separating out two aspects of the defects in the "jar" - (1) the jar is leaking and cannot be filled due to leaks caused by the holes, and (2) that the jar tainted all that it took in as with a foul odor.

For the purposes of brainstorming a graphic I am seeing two different jars here:

1) A cracked jar which can't hold wine - lack of gratitude for the good things one already has and irrational desires for things that are unnecessary for a truly happy life - so it is as if there is no pleasures which satisfy.

2) A jar contaminated with dirt or mold (perhaps the wine is also fermenting into vinegar and tastes terrible) - fear and anxiety turn any pleasure into something painful.

There are other interesting videos listed (but not sure if they require a subscription). One that caught my eye was "Did the Eruption of Mt. Vesuvius Help Spread Christianity"

Odyssey - Ancient History Documentaries

Odyssey is your journey into the world of Ancient History; from the dawn of Mesopotamia to the fall of Rome. We'll be bringing you only the best documentaries…

www.youtube.com

For anyone interested in Roman history - I found this very long video which looks very good:

The Complete History of the Roman Empire (it appears that this is free, however other videos may require a subscription).

Quote from Cassius

What is the difference between a remedy and a truth?

Snow is cold, honey is sweet - these both do not require much thought and these are both true factually. A remedy requires further thought beyond what is easily seen as true. Because death seems like such a difficult and fearful thing to think about, many people don't ever get to the point of thinking about the "truth" that if consciousness and sensation is not present then there will not be a sense of "I" after death. A remedy is truth that requires inductive reasoning.

Most people don't spend time contemplating the feeling of no pain present in either body or mind (yet with no active stimulation of the senses) as a peasant feeling. Most poeple label no pain and no active stimulation of the senses as being a neutral state -- but this is incorrect and leads to problems (making poor choices and avoidances).

Let me know if this makes sense.

Quote from Cassius

In other words, are we confident why Cicero was wrong to insist that most people are experiencing neither pleasure nor pain?

I hypothesize that when Epicurus stated "the feelings are two: pleasure and pain" that it was a "remedy" not a "truth" -- and it is similar in nature to the "remedy" of contemplating that "death is nothing to us". Contemplation of there being only two feelings is a kind of "reframing" of how we think of the nature of pleasure.

And so Cicero had not understood this remedy.

A "neutral" feeling would not tell you if something is desirable or not.

Just in case anyone is curious about the progress on the trophy system update...I have this morning turned off all trophies except for "Active Member".

The old trophy system had:

-- "New member in the last 30 days" (however the "suitcase" icon would remain indefinitely so the setting wasn't working).

-- 10 posts trophy

--100 posts trophy

--1000 posts trophy

Discovered that the system uses the logic "greater than" so it was actually set at 11, 101, 1001.

And this morning since I had assigned a special color trophy for each level, I wanted turn off the earlier trophy and only display the highest level award....I didn't use the right field for it, and decided to turn off all the trophies, except for the "Active Member" - which even though I entered "1" it uses the "greater than" logic. If I enter "0" then everyone would get the award (even those who have not made any posts). Of course I could test this out...but then it may re-issue a whole new bunch of trophies.

*****

Edit: We now have a "Frequent Contributor" trophy, and this will be all the changes for now.

This trophy update will also make it easier to manage membership and follow through with deleting members who are both inactive and have not completed their first post.

Just an fyi...today I am in the process of updating the trophy system, so you will all see some new ones popping up

Is this chart of any use?

A Comparison Chart on “The Goal of Life” – NewEpicurean

It seems that this hypothetical could be made more simple and clear. And there could be multiple ways to do so. For example:

"Would you rather be Epicurus, living in pain on your deathbed surrounded by friends knowing that you have made great contributions toward understanding the nature of the world and helping others understand it as well"

or

"Live your last week on earth pain-free but all alone on a mountain as a shepherd, and then have a very quick death from a sudden heart attack from eating too much sheep cheese, AND leave no legacy."

The original hypothetical as stated in post 1, sheds light on the natural desire for good health (and why so many picked the shepherd), since the wording of the hypothetical was such that the shepherd was not in pain.

We cannot control what kind of death we will have, or if we will be surrounded by friends or die alone. AND this question: How much can we control what kind of legacy we leave, since a portion of that process occurs by chance?

Another good article, the full article has lots of good details.

Quote

Ancient Greeks enjoyed a varied diet of vegetables, legumes, and fruit as the mainstay. But, being a coastal country with many islands, fish and seafood were an important part of the diet and animal husbandry and hunting brought meats and game to the menu. However, the consumption of fish and meat varied in accordance with the wealth and location of the household.

List of the Various Foods Enjoyed by Ancient Greeks

Ancient Greek foods were similar to the foods we know today, except the variety was limited. Learn about ancient Greek foods and how they evolved.

www.thespruceeats.com

On ancient Greek diet:

Quote

Greeks of that time were very fond of fish, perhaps even more than we are today. For lunch, they would routinely dine on any fresh fish that was available, including sea bream, mullet, sardines, and eels.

There was always an assortment of legumes from which to choose, including lentils, beans, chickpeas, peas and broad beans to accompany the fish.

The eternal European staple of bread was always part of the midday meal, accompanied by cheese, olives, eggs, nuts, and fruit.

https://greekreporter.com/2022/08/04/ancient-greeks-were-gourmands-with-a-preference-for-fish/

Tonight at 8pm, we will cover Vatican Saying 26 & 27, please join us. (Post here in this thread if you need to get the Zoom link).

VS26. You must understand that whether the discourse be long or short it tends to the same end.

VS27. In the case of other occupations the fruit (of one's labors) comes upon completion of a task while (in the case) of philosophy pleasure is concurrent with knowledge because enjoyment does not come after learning but at the same time (with) learning.