Posts by Kalosyni

Just for the record, there is nothing wrong with intense pleasure. Overindulgence which leads to pain is generally avoided. Epicureans do eat more than just bread and water, but if that is all there is they will be fine with it.

The following Epicurean verses which further shed light on what is incorrect in the above text by IDRlabs:

PD8: "No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves."

VS21: "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."

VS59: "The stomach is not insatiable, as most people say; instead the opinion that the stomach needs unlimited filling is false."

VS:71 "Ask this question of every desire: what will happen to me if the object of desire is achieved, and what if not?"

From Letter to Menoeceus: "Fourth, we hold that self-reliance is a great good — not so that we will always have only a few things but so that if we do not have much we will rejoice in the few things we have, firmly persuaded that those who need luxury the least enjoy it the most, and that everything natural is easily obtained whereas everything groundless is hard to get. So simple flavors bring just as much pleasure as a fancy diet if all pain from true need has been removed, and bread and water give the highest pleasure when someone in need partakes of them. Training yourself to live simply and without luxury brings you complete health, gives you endless energy to face the necessities of life, better prepares you for the occasional luxury, and makes you fearless no matter your fortune in life."

VS63: "Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess."

For further reading visit:
https://epicuruscollege.com/coursematerial…NotTranquility/

Goblin welcome to the forum!

Jane welcome to the forum!

I've just posted this new entry on my "21st Century Epicurean" blog...

Here is an excerpt from the opening:

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Does the Epicurean lifestyle lead to a happier life?

I would like to present the idea that happiness is a practice that can be learned. So it is possible to enhance one's happiness by doing and thinking certain things.

In several of the Epicurean verses we see indications of the feeling tone present in an Epicurean lifestyle:

"One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy." (VS 41)

"Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness." (VS 52)

"It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of." (VS 17)

Consider the feeling tone of your last three days. What kinds of feelings predominated?

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A Happy Life: the Emotional Feeling Tone of the Epicurean Lifestyle

Does the Epicurean lifestyle lead to a happier life? I would like to present the idea that happiness is a practice that can be learned. ...

epicureanphilosophyblog.blogspot.com

Quote from Yudaimon

Is there a zoom group this evening? If so how do I join?

Welcome to the forum Yudaimon. Currently our Zoom meetings are only open to Level 3 members. There is a vetting process which takes about one to two months, before Level 1 members are promoted to Level 3. We would love to get to know you better first here on the forum through your posts, in this thread or in other threads. You can ask questions or comment. During the next 2 months we will evaluate your participation, and then at the end of 2 months time we will decide whether or not you are ready for being promoted to Level 3.

You can start out by telling us a little about yourself, your background, any studies of philosophy or specific interests in Epicurus or any questions you might have about the Epicurean philosophy -- please share here in this thread.

Looking forward to hearing from you

Wow! Thanks Cleveland Okie ...This is a very interesting podcast presentation! -- some areas were buried in 50 feet of volcanic ash/debris...the papyri were discovered in 1752...untold numbers of scrolls were burned or thrown away before someone realised what they were! (this is from the first few minutes and I hope to listen to the rest of it still).

Quote from Cleveland Okie

...found out about the Emily Austin book, "Living for Pleasure." I bought it and I'm reading it now, very interesting so far. After I finish it, I'll look for comments about it in this forum.

For ease of reference here is a link to the section of the forum set up for Austin's book:

Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life - Emily Austin

We may do a Zoom "book reading/review" starting end of April or beginning of May (or maybe in the fall).

Don, Wow, that is amazing!

Quote from Don

Oh that link is cool!!

FYI:

P.Herc. 89 = Philodemus, On God's.

P.Herc. 118 = Philodemus, On Epicurus.

P.Herc. 1005= Philodemus, To... (This is the end one with the Tetrapharmakos in)

P.Herc. 1044 = Life is Philonides of Laodicea

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Are you able to read them? I only have android, so seemed like it wouldn't open for me. What was on there?

I found this interesting article, newly published, with tips and also compares Herculaneum vs Pompeii. Perfect for "armchair travelers" (such as myself) ...or others who may hope to some day travel to Italy. ( Martin)

The Villa de Papyri is in Herculaneum, but I am not certain if that is open.

This article is long (be sure to keep scrolling past the many pictures/ads, as there are lots of details).

How to visit Herculaneum (and 3 huge reasons why you should) - Helen on her Holidays

Visiting Herculaneum, a Roman city destroyed at the same time as Pompeii, is really rewarding. Here's how to visit Herculaneum on your trip to Italy.

www.helenonherholidays.com

In Letter to Menoeceus, it says:

"...train yourself to hold that death is nothing to us, because good and evil consist in sensation, and death is the removal of sensation. A correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable — not because it gives you an unbounded span of time, but because it removes the desire for immortality. There is nothing terrifying in life to someone who truly understands that there is nothing terrifying in the absence of life."

Joshua brought up during the last podcast the phrase "accustom yourself" to hold that death is nothing to us -- and that can be contemplating that the dying process is a natural process. And we have modern medicine now to help with the process.

Here is a very good article about the process of dying -- death due to incurable illness in old age.

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It's hard to ask your doctor what dying will be like. Death is a reality everyone will face one way or another. If you have an incurable illness, knowing what to expect as your body shuts down helps you prepare for as "good" of death as possible.

https://healthnews.com/family-health/end-of-life-care/what-is-dying-like-a-nurse-explains-what-dying-bodies-do/

I think it is important to contemplate this, and to let this be motivating toward living a full and pleasurable life.

Quote from Matteng

Stoics tend to see the happy life as erasing frustrations ((a)pathe).

What would be the alternative in Epicurus' philosophy?

Here is the Vatican Saying 21:

"Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."

For Epicureans it is important to pay attention to needs -- needs of the body and needs for happiness. And to find practical solutions -- by asking "What is in my power to change?"

And in the Letter to Menoeceus: "...keep in mind that some desires are natural whereas others are groundless; that among the natural desires some are natural and necessary whereas others are merely natural; and that among the necessary desires some are necessary for happiness, some for physical health, and some for life itself."

So for practical application, from modern psychology:

Painful emotions and painful feelings are like a warning light that a need of the body or of the soul is not being met, or we are in danger of losing something we believe that we need. The problem being that when we only have one way to meet a need, than we are stuck if we don't get that one way (or can't use that one strategy). So getting unstuck requires us to see other strategies for meeting our needs, as well as making peace with situations in which can't be changed.

Signs that a need is going unmet, or may go unmet in the future:

sadness

frustration

anger

fear

anxiety

worry

Signs that a need is being met effectively:

happy

enthusiastic

thankful

peaceful

satisfied/content

Some universal human needs:

food/water/shelter/clothing

safety/trust

competence/skills

rest/play

belonging/understanding

respect/consideration

autonomy/choice

etc.

I haven't yet studied Philodemus, so can't add anything from that.

Quote from Matteng

Emotions that cause suffering (pain ? )such as anxiety/obsessive-compulsive disorders should probably be countered as the Stoics or CBT envisage, but perhaps in a milder form?

OCD is a complex issue and is a separate issue than just anxiety (and different than phobias) -- there is probably a lot about what kinds of modalities of modern psychotherapy work for these issues, but haven't researched.

In another thread, there was something about CBT having some problems, and could make some conditions worse.

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Philosophical concerns with CBT methods

The methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.^[225]

Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.^[215]

Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.^[218]

Side effects

CBT is generally regarded as having very few if any side effects.^[226][227] Calls have been made by some for more appraisal of possible side effects of CBT.^[228] Many randomized trials of psychological interventions like CBT do not monitor potential harms to the patient.^[229] In contrast, randomized trials of pharmacological interventions are much more likely to take adverse effects into consideration.^[230]

A 2017 meta-analysis revealed that adverse events are not common in children receiving CBT and, furthermore, that CBT is associated with fewer dropouts than either placebo or medications.^[231] Nevertheless, CBT therapists do sometimes report 'unwanted events' and side effects in their outpatients with "negative wellbeing/distress" being the most frequent.^[232]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive…ith_CBT_methods

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Quote from Kalosyni

I would recommend studying and discussing the Letter to Menoceus, the Principal Doctrines, The Vatican Sayings, and the Torquatus section of Cicero's On Ends.

And also be sure to interpret everything in accord with the following aphorisms (and these will help you avoid the danger of over-emphasis on "minimalism"/"tranquility")

PD05

PD08

PD27

VS14

VS71

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I just realized that VS21 is another very important guide for interpretation of the Epicurean philosophy, and to point out that it is more than just necessary desires that we seek to fulfill -- and therefore a "simple life" of "minimalism" and "tranquility" is not the Epicurean goal. (And btw what I mean by "tranquility" is a life of dawdling or being like a stick in the mud, and so probably another word other than tranquility is needed.) And the true goal could also be better understood by the word "engaged" -- actively engaged with pursuing pleasure.

Vatican Saying 21: "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."

Thanks Cassius for pointing that out, and this interesting quote:

Quote

The methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.^[225]

Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.^[215]

Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.^[218]

It would be good to evaluate any of the Epicurean verses in light of two factors:

1) Does this Epicurean verse allow me to see and exercise my free will, and does it help me see that I have multiple options for solving problems in my life?

2) Does this Epicurean verse confound (confuse or mix up) the symptoms (my feelings/emotions) with the causes? (Try to get rid of symptoms without understanding the causes).

Quote from Nate

As an Epicurean, I recommend taking Epicurus' advice over Wikipedia's.

Good point! And also I think Cassius would say a certified therapist would be recommended for really difficult problems, since there are limits to Epicurean philosophy, and it is not a therapy, and thus cannot take the place of a certified therapist.

Registered users please check to see if you have received a private conversation message (see below for how to do so). It appears that the private conversations option is not optimized when using your cell phone for viewing the forum.

Almost all discussions are held on the public forum, because we all benefit from philosophizing together as a community.

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Let us know if you have any further questions.

Yes and I think audio material is great for "newbies"...for ease of reference here are some links:

Part: 1

Thread

Episode 156 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part One

Welcome to episode 156, a special two-part Episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you too find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where…

Cassius

January 10, 2023 at 12:58 AM

Part 2:

Thread

Episode 157 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part Two

Welcome to episode 157, part two of a special two part Episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you too find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at…

Cassius

January 19, 2023 at 10:13 AM

And the YouTube version which is all in one piece:

Also, this particular YouTube was helpful for me when I first started out:

"Major Aspects of Epicurean Philosophy" (Cassius gives an overview)

Friendship is an important aspect of happiness and well-being. And, in marriage, friendship is considered very important now in our current times. Some people do not have any close friends other than their spouse. Having friends (other than a spouse) is especially difficult for those people who move to different cities for career changes. Of course this puts a lot expectation and pressure on marriage. It will be inevitable that differences in opinion will arise, and knowing how to work through that is of utmost importance.

Here are some links to some very good information which explains a major source of conflict in marriage -- if one (or both partners) are "other-blamers" -- how to recognize it and what to do.

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Other-Blamers manage the feeling of shame with a lack of accountability. The key behavioral sign is hyper-vigilance to and over-reactivity to criticism. Other-Blamers tend to argue or attack to keep any taint of blame from landing close.

While these strategies provide comfort to the individual, they are counterproductive in relationships. Other-Blaming is often at the root of relationship problems, because of the reluctance to admit fault.

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In some people, the experience of shame triggers a fearful response, overwhelming the cognitive functioning of the brain, leading to fear-based behaviors of reacting rather than responding thoughtfully.

They are highly motivated to manage their shame and fear and respond with three predictable and easily identified behavioral responses called Counterproductive Shame Management Strategies:

1. Other-Blaming
2. Self-Blaming
3. Blame Avoiding

The simple key to understanding the three Shame Management Strategies is the answer to this question: How does the person handle criticism?

When held accountable for a behavior, what does the person do?

• blame others
• blame themselves, or
• preemptively try to avoid blame

Be sure to read both of following links, if you are interested in learning more.

I created a flow chart to illustrate possible ways to deal with the feeling of frustration.

Wikipedia: "In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition [or unexpected obstacles to goal fulfillment], related to anger, annoyance, and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked." (Wikipedia article).

Is the following chart helpful? Is there anything which should be added or changed?

Quote from Nate

His sweetest quote on pain management is useful to me in acknowledging the power of remembrance,

Yes, and everyone will have varying results in how they understand and use Epicurean ephorisms, so it could be a very individualized process. Perhaps everyone should make their own collection of what they find helpful, as an exercise and to assist in learning.

As for myself...there is now so much on the internet. And all I have to do is type in whatever problem I am encountering and then lots of practical advice comes up for me on various websites. I even can recommend Wikipedia, when I looked up the word "frustration".

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In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition, related to anger, annoyance and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked.^[1][2][3] There are two types of frustration: internal and external. Internal frustration may arise from challenges in fulfilling personal goals, desires, instinctual drives and needs, or dealing with perceived deficiencies, such as a lack of confidence or fear of social situations. Conflict, such as when one has competing goals that interfere with one another, can also be an internal source of frustration or annoyance and can create cognitive dissonance. External causes of frustration involve conditions outside an individual's control, such as a physical roadblock, a difficult task, or the perception of wasting time.^[4] There are multiple ways individuals cope with frustration

Frustration - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Coping - Wikipedia

Quote from Kalosyni

3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.

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Feelings: emotions or sensations, free of thought and story. These are to be distinguished from thoughts (e.g., “I feel I didn’t get a fair deal”) and from words colloquially used as feelings but which convey what we think we are (e.g., “inadequate”), how we think others are evaluating us (e.g., “unimportant”), or what we think others are doing to us (e.g., “misunderstood”, “ignored”).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication

You can read all about "faux feelings" here:

Faux Feelings – Making Life More Wonderful