Happy Birthday Pacatus 
Posts by Kalosyni
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I came upon this, which has all the same issues addressed by Cassius in the above post. But this is a much longer article, and there is added historical material regarding the rivalry of the two schools.
Stoicism Vs. EpicureanismBy: Stephen Hanselman The English language has done a great disservice to two of ancient philosophy’s greatest schools—Stoicism and Epicureanism. In the case…dailystoic.com -
I just found this travel video of Athens, (4min, 32sec -- a somewhat older video)
And this one is good if you plan on actually going to the Acropolis, for planning purposes:
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Wishing everyone a Happy 20th!
Level 3 Members: see you tonight at the Zoom!
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Some great news!
Emily Austin will be able to join us for one of the sessions of the book study Zoom! It will potentially be on week 5 or 6 - so we'll be able to meet and and talk directly to the author!
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I see another RSVP
(thank you TauPhi)Update on our meeting agenda:
Originally I had the idea of listing a few discussion questions beforehand, but I am now thinking we will take a more open approach for discussion. (I'll have some back-up discussion ideas on-hand just in case).
The Zoom will run about a hour long, and our tenative agenda for the first meeting is as follows:
1) 8:30 - 8:40 - welcoming everyone, introducing the facilitators, and then going around letting everyone else introduce themselves (very brief/easy-going)
2) 8:40 - 9:10 - a brief explanation of what we hope to accomplish and the format of the meeting, followed by diving into a presentation (by Joshua, Martin, and myself) of an overview of the first four chapters.
3) 9:10 - 9:25 - open it up for discussion
4) 9:25 - prepare for closing and good-byes
You can find a list of the highlights which we will touch on here in this thread:
Cassius will also be present as facilitator as well, especially during the questions and open discussion segment.
This will be a fun way to encounter the basic foundations of Epicurean philosophy, and looking forward to seeing you all on April 30th.
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Living for Pleasure by Emily Austin - April 30th meeting
Chapters 1 - 4
Chapter 1 - Maybe We’re Doing it Wrong
- Imagining the pleasure of a perfect vacation
- Hedonism at first glance seems like a recipe for following destructive impulses and "giving license to our failure of self-control", but Epicurus is different
- Feelings of shame can come up around natural bodily desires – we both need and want to have the freedom to enjoy what brings us pleasure
- Pleasure is a sweeping term that includes everything that is not painful
- The importance of removing anxiety and taking action
- Not life coaching - this is to wake you up to pleasure and pain, and that pleasure is the natural guide to live a happier life
Chapter 2 - Epicureanism, the Original Cast
- Epicurus
- Lucretius
- Philodemus
- Diogenes of Oenoanda
- The Opposition: Cicero, Seneca, Plutarch
Chapter 3 - Happiness, Theirs and Ours
- The dispute between the various ancient schools of philosophy is about their divergent views about the nature of happiness and the ways to achieve it
- An objective vs. subjective understanding of happiness
Chapter 4 - Natural Hedonism
- It is easily observed that we pursue pleasure and avoid pain by nature
- The cradle argument
- All our actions aim toward our own pleasure
- Hedonistic prudence
- Psychological hedonism
- Prudential miscalculations
- Objections from the opponents of Epicureanism
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That's a pretty layout, but there are SO many things wrong with that imagined conversation!Yes! And this is how false ideas get spread, so it is important to set things straight as you have done in your paper (referenced above).
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I found a conversion page for stadia to miles.
20 stadia = just about 2 miles
Now Don has the following in his paper, which looks like the distance was quite a bit less.
Quote
Cicero’s walk across Athens, through the Dipylon Gate, and ending at Plato’s Academy provides a tantalizing route for a walking tour through the ancient city. According to Cicero’s text, he and his friends walked six stades from the Dipylon Gate while talking about various topics (inde sermone vario sex illa a Dipylo stadia confecimus), and his companion Pomponius remarks that, upon arriving at the Academy, they had just passed (quos modo praeteribamus) Epicurus’s Garden. -
I happened to find this just last night and this looks like a page from a book, and it is a collector's item. I've been looking to find out if there are any more "Epicurean conversations" by Landor to be found on the internet. Joshua, maybe you know about this?
(Source)I happened to find this before the newsest posting by Don (article which talks about pinpointing the exact location of the Garden).
Here is a bit more about the writer and poet Landor...from Wikipedia:
QuoteThe Imaginary Conversations were begun when Landor was living in Florence and were initially published as they were completed between 1824-9, by which time they filled three volumes. The dialogues, not yet divided into categories, were initially given the composite title Conversations of Literary Men and Statesmen. With their success Landor continued to write more, as well as to polish and add to those already published. Some appeared first in literary reviews, as for example the conversation between "Southey and Porson" on William Wordsworth's poetry in 1823, predating the first published series of conversations in the following year. Various supplemented editions followed each other until there were five volumes containing nearly 150 conversations.
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I created this graphic as an attempt to illustrate possible ways to think of pleasure and pain as varying levels on a slider. This may need to be changed, and please let me know if there might be other ways to illustrate, or further questions.
Also, the following points:
1. When pain is removed it produces an experience of relief which is felt to be a kind of pleasure.
2. Even when one part of the body is in pain, pleasure can be felt in another part of the body.
3. At times mental pleasures can feel stronger than bodily pains.
4. Pleasure can only be varied (but not increased) once pain is removed.
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LateLearner Welcome! And thank you for your post over in the thread about the book group:
If you like you can share either in that thread, or here in this welcome thread about any fun stories you would want others on the forum to know about you, for example how you came to be interested in Epicurean philosophy or anything else relevant
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I am interested. I bought the book but haven't read it yet.
Thanks LateLearner for your RSVP -- the first meeting will cover the first four chapters - 41 pages. Have you read any other books on Epicurean Philosophy or will this be your first? I am always interested to hear about any background regarding philosophy study or how you became interested in Epicurean philosophy?
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TauPhi Welcome to the forum!
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"He famously denies that perceptible qualities other than shape and size (and, perhaps, weight) really exist in the atoms themselves: one direct quotation surviving from Democritus claims that ‘by convention sweet and by convention bitter, by convention hot, by convention cold, by convention color; but in reality atoms and void’ (DK 68B9, trans. Taylor 1999a)."What comes to mind for me is that this claim by Democritus is slightly similar but yet different to the Buddhist "Two Truths" which according to a Tricycle article is: "The doctrine of two truths—the absolute and the relative—holds that there are two ways of viewing the world: as things appear to be, and as they are. In other words, existence is both relative (or conventional) and absolute. The relative or conventional explanation of reality is what we know and experience, while the ultimate or absolute truth is inexpressible, empty (sunya), and lies outside of conventional experience and language. The conventional truth about something is its dependence on conditions. The ultimate truth is its emptiness. This doctrine has its roots in the words of the historical Buddha, who acknowledged that some experiences, in particular nirvana, lie beyond the ability of language to describe."(Source)
I confess that I would need to read more of the Sedley article and a lot more on this to fully understand what Epicurus' stance was. I personally reject any idea of "two truths" (no matter the source) because it leads to meaninglessness and passivity. Yet there is one thing that I do hold to be true which is that the use of language is conventional, and that we must always take that into consideration - language is just a symbol pointing toward reality and it is not reality. Is there any indication of this in Epicurus, that language is understood as conventional?
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Thank you Onenski, @TAC, and Cleveland Okie for your response. This thread will be functioning as the sign-up for the meeting, so you are all now on the list.
Anyone else who would like to attend please use this thread as an RSVP to let us know you would like to attend. We will send everyone a link to the Zoom meeting by private message on the day of the meeting.
I am aiming to post some disscussion questions on the first four chapters next week (will post them here in this thread).
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@TAC Welcome to the forum!
So much of what they philosophized about, felt relevant. I found shades of them in Eckhardt Tolles famous books as well as…don’t laugh some of Tony Robbins as well! Haha I was struck by how much of what I read about Epicurus seem to really resonate with me. In particular…ataraxia.
Way back some time ago I briefly read some of Echardt Tolle and Tony Robbins. I am pondering as to where there could be some overlap between their philosophies and Epicurus' philosophy. My memory and intuition feels that there are definitely some core differences. Where there is overlap, we would need to see if it encouraged actively pursuing what is pleasurable in life. So to the extent of, if and when they urge following pleasure as a guide (as Epicurus urges) that would be an important aspect.
As for ataraxia, I like to define it as "smooth sailing" to highlight active choices rather than passivity.
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I wanted to thank Don for participating in the podcast, and say that I really enjoyed hearing everything you shared and your upbeat and cheerful podcast personality. Don, I know you've been in on it for the last few weeks on a drop-in basis, and hoping you will join us again sometime soon.
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I am putting together a few discussion questions based on the first four chapters, and aiming to post them next week, so they will be ready in time for the first meeting of the book study group on April 30th (will post in that thread).
