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In Letter to Menoeceus, it says:
"...train yourself to hold that death is nothing to us, because good and evil consist in sensation, and death is the removal of sensation. A correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable — not because it gives you an unbounded span of time, but because it removes the desire for immortality. There is nothing terrifying in life to someone who truly understands that there is nothing terrifying in the absence of life."
Joshua brought up during the last podcast the phrase "accustom yourself" to hold that death is nothing to us -- and that can be contemplating that the dying process is a natural process. And we have modern medicine now to help with the process.
Here is a very good article about the process of dying -- death due to incurable illness in old age.
It's hard to ask your doctor what dying will be like. Death is a reality everyone will face one way or another. If you have an incurable illness, knowing what to expect as your body shuts down helps you prepare for as "good" of death as possible.
I think it is important to contemplate this, and to let this be motivating toward living a full and pleasurable life.
Stoics tend to see the happy life as erasing frustrations ((a)pathe).
What would be the alternative in Epicurus' philosophy?
Here is the Vatican Saying 21:
"Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."
For Epicureans it is important to pay attention to needs -- needs of the body and needs for happiness. And to find practical solutions -- by asking "What is in my power to change?"
And in the Letter to Menoeceus: "...keep in mind that some desires are natural whereas others are groundless; that among the natural desires some are natural and necessary whereas others are merely natural; and that among the necessary desires some are necessary for happiness, some for physical health, and some for life itself."
So for practical application, from modern psychology:
Painful emotions and painful feelings are like a warning light that a need of the body or of the soul is not being met, or we are in danger of losing something we believe that we need. The problem being that when we only have one way to meet a need, than we are stuck if we don't get that one way (or can't use that one strategy). So getting unstuck requires us to see other strategies for meeting our needs, as well as making peace with situations in which can't be changed.
Signs that a need is going unmet, or may go unmet in the future:
sadness
frustration
anger
fear
anxiety
worry
Signs that a need is being met effectively:
happy
enthusiastic
thankful
peaceful
satisfied/content
Some universal human needs:
food/water/shelter/clothing
safety/trust
competence/skills
rest/play
belonging/understanding
respect/consideration
autonomy/choice
etc.
I haven't yet studied Philodemus, so can't add anything from that.
Emotions that cause suffering (pain ? )such as anxiety/obsessive-compulsive disorders should probably be countered as the Stoics or CBT envisage, but perhaps in a milder form?
OCD is a complex issue and is a separate issue than just anxiety (and different than phobias) -- there is probably a lot about what kinds of modalities of modern psychotherapy work for these issues, but haven't researched.
In another thread, there was something about CBT having some problems, and could make some conditions worse.
Philosophical concerns with CBT methods
The methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.[225]
Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.[215]
Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.[218]
Side effects
CBT is generally regarded as having very few if any side effects.[226][227] Calls have been made by some for more appraisal of possible side effects of CBT.[228] Many randomized trials of psychological interventions like CBT do not monitor potential harms to the patient.[229] In contrast, randomized trials of pharmacological interventions are much more likely to take adverse effects into consideration.[230]
A 2017 meta-analysis revealed that adverse events are not common in children receiving CBT and, furthermore, that CBT is associated with fewer dropouts than either placebo or medications.[231] Nevertheless, CBT therapists do sometimes report 'unwanted events' and side effects in their outpatients with "negative wellbeing/distress" being the most frequent.[232]
Display MoreI would recommend studying and discussing the Letter to Menoceus, the Principal Doctrines, The Vatican Sayings, and the Torquatus section of Cicero's On Ends.
And also be sure to interpret everything in accord with the following aphorisms (and these will help you avoid the danger of over-emphasis on "minimalism"/"tranquility")VS14
I just realized that VS21 is another very important guide for interpretation of the Epicurean philosophy, and to point out that it is more than just necessary desires that we seek to fulfill -- and therefore a "simple life" of "minimalism" and "tranquility" is not the Epicurean goal. (And btw what I mean by "tranquility" is a life of dawdling or being like a stick in the mud, and so probably another word other than tranquility is needed.) And the true goal could also be better understood by the word "engaged" -- actively engaged with pursuing pleasure.
Vatican Saying 21: "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."
Thanks Cassius for pointing that out, and this interesting quote:
The methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.[225]
Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.[215]
Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.[218]
It would be good to evaluate any of the Epicurean verses in light of two factors:
1) Does this Epicurean verse allow me to see and exercise my free will, and does it help me see that I have multiple options for solving problems in my life?
2) Does this Epicurean verse confound (confuse or mix up) the symptoms (my feelings/emotions) with the causes? (Try to get rid of symptoms without understanding the causes).
As an Epicurean, I recommend taking Epicurus' advice over Wikipedia's.
Good point! And also I think Cassius would say a certified therapist would be recommended for really difficult problems, since there are limits to Epicurean philosophy, and it is not a therapy, and thus cannot take the place of a certified therapist.
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Yes and I think audio material is great for "newbies"...for ease of reference here are some links:
Part: 1
Part 2:
And the YouTube version which is all in one piece:
Also, this particular YouTube was helpful for me when I first started out:
"Major Aspects of Epicurean Philosophy" (Cassius gives an overview)
Friendship is an important aspect of happiness and well-being. And, in marriage, friendship is considered very important now in our current times. Some people do not have any close friends other than their spouse. Having friends (other than a spouse) is especially difficult for those people who move to different cities for career changes. Of course this puts a lot expectation and pressure on marriage. It will be inevitable that differences in opinion will arise, and knowing how to work through that is of utmost importance.
Here are some links to some very good information which explains a major source of conflict in marriage -- if one (or both partners) are "other-blamers" -- how to recognize it and what to do.
Other-Blamers manage the feeling of shame with a lack of accountability. The key behavioral sign is hyper-vigilance to and over-reactivity to criticism. Other-Blamers tend to argue or attack to keep any taint of blame from landing close.
While these strategies provide comfort to the individual, they are counterproductive in relationships. Other-Blaming is often at the root of relationship problems, because of the reluctance to admit fault.
In some people, the experience of shame triggers a fearful response, overwhelming the cognitive functioning of the brain, leading to fear-based behaviors of reacting rather than responding thoughtfully.
They are highly motivated to manage their shame and fear and respond with three predictable and easily identified behavioral responses called Counterproductive Shame Management Strategies:
- Other-Blaming
- Self-Blaming
- Blame Avoiding
The simple key to understanding the three Shame Management Strategies is the answer to this question: How does the person handle criticism?
When held accountable for a behavior, what does the person do?
- blame others
- blame themselves, or
- preemptively try to avoid blame
Be sure to read both of following links, if you are interested in learning more.
I created a flow chart to illustrate possible ways to deal with the feeling of frustration.
Wikipedia: "In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition [or unexpected obstacles to goal fulfillment], related to anger, annoyance, and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked." (Wikipedia article).
Is the following chart helpful? Is there anything which should be added or changed?
His sweetest quote on pain management is useful to me in acknowledging the power of remembrance,
Yes, and everyone will have varying results in how they understand and use Epicurean ephorisms, so it could be a very individualized process. Perhaps everyone should make their own collection of what they find helpful, as an exercise and to assist in learning.
As for myself...there is now so much on the internet. And all I have to do is type in whatever problem I am encountering and then lots of practical advice comes up for me on various websites. I even can recommend Wikipedia, when I looked up the word "frustration".
In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition, related to anger, annoyance and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked.[1][2][3] There are two types of frustration: internal and external. Internal frustration may arise from challenges in fulfilling personal goals, desires, instinctual drives and needs, or dealing with perceived deficiencies, such as a lack of confidence or fear of social situations. Conflict, such as when one has competing goals that interfere with one another, can also be an internal source of frustration or annoyance and can create cognitive dissonance. External causes of frustration involve conditions outside an individual's control, such as a physical roadblock, a difficult task, or the perception of wasting time.[4] There are multiple ways individuals cope with frustration
3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication
You can read all about "faux feelings" here:
Eikadistes, as I look over it some more:
1. my concern continues to be that these will end up dealing with "symptoms" and not "causes" of feelings and emotions. Also, you'll want to have your sense of anger working correctly, so it is there for you when you need it, and you should not be trying to tamp it down. So a truly emotionally healthy person will feel a rainbow of feelings and emotions, but they will not be perplexed, overwhelmed by, or stuck in their feelings/emotions. There will be a healthy flow. And healthy anger when it does arise won't be a big blowout, but a recognition of bodily feelings. And so...We need not the appearance of health but actual true health (VS54)
2. Verses taken out of context: -- the first listing under "persecuted" from Letter to Menoeceus; -- VS62 under "anger" is specifically between parents and children (perhaps there are others).
3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.
I want to be sure my anger is directed at the proper objects, and then I want to work as hard as I can to resolve that problem clearly and directly, even if the other person or people disagree.
Exactly! And so understanding the difference between protective use of force vs punitive use of force is very important, and will lead to better future outcomes.
Protective use of force vs. Punitive use of force
Protective vs. punitive use of force (difference is in intention) protective force's intention protects from injuries or accidents or misuse of someone's rights and or loss of life. Punitive use of force has an intention to change the other person through punishment or reward, to teach how they "should" do.
...If the intention is only to protect my own need, then it’s justified. That’s the only time force is justified. I must have no desire to make the other person suffer.
https://en.nvcwiki.com/index.php/Prot…ve_use_of_force
And this would support: "Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good."
On second reading, I am now thinking that Kalosyni's issue is not so much with Nate's formatting as it is with Epicurus' content
In this type of document things could be "taken out of context" (how many Christian preachers do this with the Bible?).
And we don't know in what manner Epicurus taught. All we have is what later people (after Epicurus) copied or wrote down, and it is impossible to rule out that they "re-interpreted" things.
Diogenes Laertius lived in the 3rd Century CE (Wikipedia)
Epicurus lived in 341 - 270 BCE -- here is a link to a graphic timeline comparing several other historical figures who wrote on Epicurean philosophy.
So...we must understand the foundations of Epicurean philosophy and then everything must be viewed in light of the very basic foundations -- and ask this: "Does it lead to pleasure, joy and happiness?"
Here is an overview of how NVC suggests dealing with anger:
Nonviolent Communication for Anger
“The cause of anger lies in our thinking – in thoughts of blame and judgment.”
Many people want to know how to use Nonviolent Communication for anger because it can be such a scary emotion for so many people. Feeling it, expressing it — and being on the receiving end of it — can be extremely unsettling!
Nonviolent Communication (NVC) helps us navigate anger in a holistic way. Using NVC for anger is a healthy and empowering way to rewire our responses to this powerful emotion.
Because anger is so often associated with violence, it’s common for people to avoid anger — as they might avoid conflict — out of their need for safety.
But anger itself is simply an emotion.
How we choose to handle it — including how we hold it within ourselves and how we express it — can make all the difference.
Just as importantly, how we handle another person’s anger, especially when it is directed toward us, can also make the difference between conflict and connection. Let’s take a deeper look at how Nonviolent Communication for anger works with our internal dialogues….
Healthy Ways to Handle Anger Inside Ourselves
Nonviolent Communication gives us healthy ways to handle anger inside ourselves.
Employing Nonviolent Communication for anger first requires acknowledging that this is an incredibly powerful emotion, and that we probably need to find more healthy ways to handle it inside ourselves.
One of the main challenges to finding healthy ways to deal with anger inside ourselves is that by the time anger arises we have usually already lost control.
By using Nonviolent Communication for anger, we rewire our capacity and skills for handling anger constructively. At first, our attention centers on how soon we can recover from an anger episode, and with what intention and how soon do we engage in any necessary relationship repair and clean-up.
As we cultivate healthy ways to handle our anger, we begin to catch it sooner. We start to notice subtle shifts and changes before we’ve erupted in anger! We can notice where we’ve made an assumption or an interpretation that in the past would have led to us feeling angry. This helps us calm down and deconstruct the story that has led to anger. It also gives us the opportunity to question it or check it out with others, before lashing out in anger.
As we cultivate healthy ways to handle anger inside ourselves, we begin to discern the deeper Universal Human Needs and values that underlie an expression of anger. Once a person has connected with their own (and/or others’) underlying needs and values, what we find is that the emotion shifts. At that point it’s usually not anger anymore. The shift from right/wrong thinking to connection with the underlying needs or values comes with a shift in the feeling which now might be frustration or sorrow, but no longer anger.
When we connect with our feelings and needs, and we allow our feelings to flow in a space of presence, healing begins to happen. At this point, we are getting closer to a place of mourning, forgiveness, and self-forgiveness.
Content by PuddleDancer Press. Use of content okay with attribution. Please visit https://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/ to learn more about Nonviolent Communication.
Healthy Ways to Deal with Anger from Other People
Learning healthy ways to handle anger inside ourselves is only one part of how Nonviolent Communication and anger relate. Another part involves learning healthy ways to deal with anger from other people. Being on the receiving end of anger can be incredibly scary for reasons of our emotional, mental, and physical safety.
In these situations, besides high-level NVC skills, we want reassurance that we will be safe. (See the distinction between protective and punitive use of force.)
If we are certain of our physical safety, sometimes another’s anger is disconcerting for other reasons:
They have judgments of us which are hard to hear and/or,
We are taking responsibility for their feelings, telling ourselves that we made this person feel bad, and/or,
We’re concerned about some damage to an important relationship, as well as all that that can mean and imply.
The tools of NVC come in handy when cultivating healthy ways to deal with anger from other people. These tools include self-empathy, empathy toward others, and the ability to express truthfully or authentically with the intention to create a connection and refraining from using words that would cause more harm.
Imagine working on anger — your own or receiving others’ — to the point where you felt safe and comfortable around it, and knew how to handle it confidently and effectively, able to defuse conflicts and guide them toward more connection!
How does this look in an everyday context?
Let’s consult Dr. Marshall Rosenberg on NVC and anger to find out….
Dr. Marshall Rosenberg on NVC for Anger
Dr. Marshall Rosenberg, Ph.D. had revolutionary insight on the relationship between NVC and anger. According to Dr. Rosenberg, anger means we are disconnected from our needs. He taught us that anger is one of the four emotions that are disconnected from needs because of what we are telling ourselves. (The other three are shame, guilt, and depression).
In a practical context, these are the types of questions we can ask ourselves to see if we are progressing on using NVC for anger:
When someone speaks to me in anger, do I stay self-connected? Can I give myself self-empathy rather than judge them back or blame myself?
When someone speaks to me in anger, how soon does my attention go to what their needs might be? Am I able to give them empathic presence (perhaps after giving myself self-empathy) rather than judge them back or blame myself?
When someone speaks to me in anger, to what degree am I able to hang in there with the conversation? Am I able to express my honesty from the heart, my feelings and my needs — perhaps in addition to empathic presence, possibly with moments of self-empathy throughout — rather than judge them, blame myself, lash out, disconnect, or rush to a solution for short term relief?
To what extent can I hang in there in a tough conversation for the possibility of deeper connection and a mutually satisfying outcome?
If I notice we’re both angry, and both want to be heard at the same time, can I call a time-out in a way that we can get support in order to come back to the conversation?
With NVC for anger, we also learn how to own the causes and express anger fully. This means deconstructing the story we have and getting to the underlying needs. When we do this we can express what we value and cherish — rather than focusing on our judgments of others or becoming entrenched in who was right or wrong. In this way, NVC for anger helps us shift the feeling of anger to other, more life-connected feelings.
Content by PuddleDancer Press. Use of content okay with attribution. Please visit https://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/ to learn more about Nonviolent Communication.
Wow! Eikadistes, That is a big collection of "Epicurean verses" and I can imagine that this took a lot of work to compile.
I had some feelings/reactions come up as I did a quick skim of it. And my feelings probably are due to the time that I spent studying "Compassionate Communication" also called Nonviolent Communication -- NVC, by Marshall Rosenberg. Within NVC, it deals directly with why feelings arise in the first place, and then when we clearly understand a given situation we can more effectively make choices and take action. The actions we take are not to just get rid of a feeling (such as just to remove the symptom) but to address the root cause of a feeling -- and to make changes which lead to more pleasure and happiness in life.
It is very interesting to see the verses, and how they might tie in together with emotions and feelings. But I do wonder if this is really effective for helping people? How many of these verses actually help with the root causes of feelings and emotions? How many of these verses help with making the best "choices and avoidances" without "guilting" someone, but instead inviting someone to see the truth on their own terms? I would really need to read through much more closely to evaluate each one.
Perhaps a slightly different formating could make it work for some of the material which helps deal with root causes.
To illustrate further, I would only trust something which has a feeling of compassion toward feelings and emotions, and not an authoritarian tone of "right/wrong" -- if there is even the slightest sense of something suggesting: "Shut up and stop crying" then I would not use it even if purported to be said by Epicurus.
Another option would be to follow an outline of some kind, and think there are many different outlines here on the forum.
You may have seen that we've been working on creating an Epicurean Week program, and potentially this could be of help:
It isn't very developed yet, but in the coming weeks this should be fleshed out a bit more, including practical exercises:
I would recommend studying and discussing the Letter to Menoceus, the Principal Doctrines, The Vatican Sayings, and the Torquatus section of Cicero's On Ends.
And also be sure to interpret everything in accord with the following aphorisms (and these will help you avoid the danger of over-emphasis on "minimalism"/"tranquility")
VS14
I think it is extremely dangerous to consult "answers" from AI chatbots, no matter how sophisticated, to questions like this. I will admit it can be a novelty or intriguing, but any answers we want to questions like that should be weighed against *human* feelings and sensations.
Perhaps the biggest danger is that somehow any human being might be tempted to give ChatGPT some kind of "authority status" and to somehow think that it is smarter than any human being.
For example, if you had to "weigh" this:
-- Kalosyni says "xyz" vs ChatGPT says "xyz"
It is possible that some people out there would give more credit to ChatGPT?
In some sense asking certain questions of ChatGPT is "lazy", and I myself could sit down and think and write out a list of possible answers, especially given my own knowledge of the world based on my 52 years of existence. But a much younger person, for example a teenager, won't have the knowledge to do that.
And in some ways it isn't any different than asking the opinion of another human being. When I was attending a Buddhist Zen group, there would sometimes be new people asking questions that were very "simple" (almost cringeworthy) which most likely they should have just taken the time to answer for themselves (but the Zen teacher would answer anyway).
No doubt, but it's also inevitable that millions (billions?) of people are soon going to be doing exactly that, so we'll need to want to explore this - just as you are doing - so we can figure out the best response.
I think we should create a special section perhaps (and which has it's own folder).
I personally think that this particular question that I started the thread out with: "What are the limits of desires?" to be a worthwhile question. And in some ways the ChatGPT maybe didn't fully answer it, so will need to think some more on it.
I typed in a question on the limits of desires into ChatGPT, and here is the result:
My Question:
Explain reasons why there are limits to desire in all areas in life. Describe what might limit desire. Explain what causes desire to arise and what causes desire to disappear.
ChatGPt Answer:
Desire can be defined as a strong feeling of wanting or wishing for something. While desires can provide us with motivation and drive, there are limits to desire in all areas of life. Here are some reasons why:
- Limited resources: Our desires may be limitless, but the resources we have to fulfill them are not. Whether it is time, money, or other resources, we are limited in what we can achieve.
- Physical limitations: Our bodies have limitations as well. We may desire to achieve a certain level of physical fitness or perform certain activities, but our bodies may not be capable of doing so.
- Social norms and expectations: Society places limits on what we can desire and achieve. Certain desires may be frowned upon or even prohibited by social norms and expectations.
- Personal values and beliefs: Our own values and beliefs can also limit our desires. We may not desire things that go against our moral or ethical code.
- Emotional and psychological factors: Our emotional and psychological state can also limit our desires. Depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues can affect our ability to desire and achieve certain things.
Desire arises when we feel a sense of lack or deficiency. We may desire something that we perceive will fill that void or improve our situation. Desire can be triggered by external factors such as advertisements, peer pressure, or social media, or internal factors such as personal goals and aspirations.
Desire can disappear when we either achieve what we desire or when we realize that the desired object or outcome is not as fulfilling as we thought it would be. We may also lose interest in a desire if it becomes too difficult or requires too much effort to achieve. Additionally, our desires may change over time as we grow and evolve as individuals.
Do you think this enhances the understanding of PD10 and is in alignment with Epicurus' teachings?
