Posts by Kalosyni

Creating Seven Steps...a thread which I started some weeks ago, almost fell back in the vast ocean of this forum. By chance found it again, spurred on by the recent very good posting by Titus - which you can read his very good thoughts on ethics over on his personal outline thread:

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RE: Titus' personal outline

(3) The nature of how to live.

This could also be seen as a continuation of the Epicurean Philosophy Navigation Chart to expand the Ethics. A preliminary list of topics that are important to me:

1. Awareness of becoming and passing away, consciousness of life and death in respect to the nature of the universe, processuality of life

2. Pursuing/Focussing the natural desires which

a.) is Nature's yardstick for happiness

b.) leads to self-sufficiency and autarky

c.) reveals life as an inexhaustible…

Titus

September 21, 2023 at 4:46 AM

I definitely would like to include what Titus has written into the mix here in this thread and possibly for further development on materials - I really want to move forward the idea that I have for either a "7 Steps" or maybe a "Handbook on Epicurean Ethics".

Some further thoughts reflecting on the above article on "self-centeredness". I think a better description of "self-centeredness" is a habit of focusing only one oneself. Everyone naturally has this trait because it is a self-preservation instinct. But some people have more of this than others. Also, in our current modern times, with the internet, digital books, and digital music we can easily entertain ourselves (by ourselves) without the "hassle" of negotiating with whom and what to do. So we can keep feelings of loneliness at bay, but at the expense of interacting with other people. And imagine how many people use their spare time in this way, so that very few people are available or looking to make new friends.

I bring this up because perhaps some of us need to remind ourselves to take a break away from self-centered activities and reach out to others - and as PD27 says:

"Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship."

Wishing you all a Happy Twentieth!

Vatican Saying 23: "Every friendship is an excellence in itself, even though it begins in mutual advantage."

The following article brings up the idea that to reduce loneliness you need to work on reducing self-centeredness.

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Research conducted over more than a decade indicates that loneliness increases self-centeredness and, to a lesser extent, self-centeredness also increases loneliness.

The findings by researchers at the University of Chicago show such effects create a positive feedback loop between the two traits: As increased loneliness heightens self-centeredness, the latter then contributes further to enhanced loneliness.

“If you get more self-centered, you run the risk of staying locked in to feeling socially isolated,” said John Cacioppo, the Tiffany and Margaret Blake Distinguished Service Professor in Psychology and director of the Center for Cognitive and Social Neuroscience.

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In this view, evolution has shaped the brain to incline humans toward certain emotions, thoughts and behavior. “A variety of biological mechanisms have evolved that capitalize on aversive signals to motivate us to act in ways that are essential for our reproduction or survival,” the UChicago co-authors wrote. From that perspective, loneliness serves as the psychological counterpart of physical pain.

“Physical pain is an aversive signal that alerts us of potential tissue damange and motivates us to take care of our physical body,” the UChicago researchers wrote. Loneliness, meanwhile, is part of a warning system that motivates people to repair or replace their deficient social relationships.

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Evolution of loneliness

The finding that loneliness tends to increase self-centeredness fits the evolutionary interpretation of loneliness. From an evolutionary-biological viewpoint, people have to be concerned with their own interests. The pressures of modern society, however, are significantly different from those that prevailed when loneliness evolved in the human species, researchers found.

“Humans evolved to become such a powerful species, in large part due to mutual aid and protection and the changes in the brain that proved adaptive in social interactions,” John Cacioppo said. “When we don’t have mutual aid and protection, we are more likely to become focused on our own interests and welfare. That is, we become more self-centered.”

In modern society, becoming more self-centered protects lonely people in the short term but not the long term. That’s because the harmful effects of loneliness accrue over time to reduce a person’s health and well-being.

“This evolutionarily adaptive response may have helped people survive in ancient times, but in contemporary society may well make it harder for people to get out of feelings of loneliness,” John Cacioppo said.

When humans are at their best, they provide mutual aid and protection, Stephanie Cacioppo added. “It isn’t that one individual is sacrificial to the other. It’s that together they do more than the sum of the parts. Loneliness undercuts that focus and really makes you focus on only your interests at the expense of others.”

Loneliness contributes to self-centeredness for sake of self-preservation

Study finds positive feedback loop between behaviors

news.uchicago.edu

Homemade Cheese, In Ancient Roman Style:

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Here's something that people made and ate more than two millennia ago, but familiar to all of us. Art historian and chef Nancy De Lucia Real shares a simple cheese recipe that Romans would have eaten in Gaul (modern-day France), cited in writer Pliny's Latin text, "Natural History" written in 77 AD, that says the best cheeses came from the villages near what is now the city of Nîmes in southern France. You don't need to go all the way to Europe to try this Roman staple -- this cheese is easily replicated at home.

Homemade Cheese

Makes one 4-inch round cheese

Since this traditional recipe uses organic whole milk and vinegar for coagulation, the resulting cheese is extremely fresh and without artificial additives. It will keep, covered in an airtight container and refrigerated, for 2 to 3 days.

1 gallon organic, whole milk

½ cup white, distilled vinegar

1-1/4 teaspoons salt

Pour the milk into a 10 to 12-quart saucepot and heat, stirring constantly, until almost boiling.

When milk begins to smoke and almost boils, remove the saucepot from heat.

Immediately stir in the vinegar; let stand 10 minutes.

Meanwhile, line a strainer with cheesecloth, and set it over a large pot or bowl (bowl should be placed inside the sink).

After 10 minutes, pour the milk-vinegar mixture into the cheesecloth set over strainer. The solids (curds) should separate from the yellowish liquid (whey).

Stir the salt into the whey in bowl and then pour it over the curds in the strainer.

Let the curds continue to drain in the strainer for one hour.

Discard the liquid or whey.

After the cheese has finished draining, tighten the cloth around the cheese.

Loosen the cheesecloth and, using a soup spoon (or one that is slightly larger), gently scoop out the cheese and transfer it to a glass or porcelain bowl measuring 8 to 9 inches in diameter.

Pat the cheese into a ball and cover it with plastic wrap.

Store the fresh cheese in the refrigerator until ready to serve.

Homemade cheese keeps refrigerated in an airtight container for 2 to 3 days.

Variation: You can experiment with different varieties of cheese by adding ground black pepper, dried, red chili peppers, or your favorite herbs.

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Recipe: Homemade Cheese, in the Ancient Roman Style

This simple cheese recipe would have been made and eaten by Romans more than two millennia ago.

www.kcet.org

Currently filed under the Ethics section of the forum...Please see this thread on Philodemus on frank speech:

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Philodemus - On Frank Speech

A big part of classical Epicurean practice in the original Garden through the time of Philodemus and beyond to even Oenoanda appears to be the one on one consultation or counseling between student and teacher to correct mistaken views and actions. Philodemus outlines this practice and its implementation and importance in On Frank Speech. That is a major component that is lost in our current moment, not to say that we don't help each other hone our understanding, but there are no teachers with…

Don

September 16, 2023 at 10:49 AM

I don't recall there being anything in the early extant texts (PDs etc) that gives reference to "frank speech" and in Lucretius honey is put onto the cup of wormwood (which would be to emphasize a pleasant way of speaking).

Wishing you a Happy Birthday Bryan !!

Quote from Don

A big part of classical Epicurean practice in the original Garden through the time of Philodemus and beyond to even Oenoanda appears to be the one on one consultation or counseling between student and teacher to correct mistaken views and actions. Philodemus outlines this practice and its implementation and importance in On Frank Speech.

Is it not true that we have no evidence of what was happening in the original Garden regarding special consultation or counseling?

And perhaps Philodemus could have developed the ethical aspect much further than Epicurus, and all while remaining true to the core doctrines. I am wondering if perhaps during Philodemus' time there may have been less emphasis on natural physics/science and more emphasis on ethics...but yet I don't know if that is true or not.

Quote from Kalosyni

It does seem that it would be good for us to be on the same page with how we understand Epicurus...and the question of what was philosophy to Epicurus?

Can we take a guess as to the philosophy of Epicurus, and in his ancient school at the Garden, about what percentage of time would a student spend on "book learning" (in that time scroll reading) of natural physics/science and what percentage of time on understanding the role of pleasure and developing prudence? And what percentage of time was not spent on study but on actual enjoyment of life (and also brings up the question of work and how that would fit in to the schedule. Perhaps as a student you "paid" to attend by copying scrolls which were then sold to bring in money for the school, just guessing on that possibility).

But my point is that I now think that a much larger portion of the time was spent on natural physics/science.

In addition to what was said, perhaps this question: Is philosophy the love of knowledge or is it the love of wisdom?

And can we say that the goal in ancient times was to discover the best way to live a good life?

(And in comparison, that there are other goals in modern philosophy).

A question toward the very end came up: "What is philosophy" in which Joshua and I gave "two different sides of the same coin" and so I just want to post further on that because there is both modern and ancient views - how we as modern people define "philosophy" vs how Epicurus defined philopsophy.

Perhaps with my background of the study of art and psychology I am very much at a disadvantage compared to others here on the forum who have a background of the study of history, or law, when it comes to philosophy and grasping what it is understood to be (or defined).

It does seem that it would be good for us to be on the same page with how we understand Epicurus...and the question of what was philosophy to Epicurus?

The first two translations in post 4 seem to say that is it better to speak in oracles. And the third one says something very different: that is it better to be frank and straightforward than to speak in oracles - so this one would need a very close examination of the Greek words used.

VS29 -

"Employing frankness in my study of natural philosophy, I would prefer to proclaim in oracular fashion what is beneficial to men, even if no one is going to understand, rather than to assent to [common] opinions and so enjoy the constant praise which comes from the many." - Inwood and Gerson

VS29 -
"Speaking freely in my study of what is natural, I prefer to prophesize about what is good for all people, even if no one will understand me, rather than to accept common opinions and thereby reap the showers of praise that fall so freely from the great mass of men." - St. Andre

Thoughts:

I would interpret this as saying that Epicurus was saying a lot more than just "pleasure" is a natural guide. And I think "oracular fashion" means he was being very specific about what is beneficial and good.

We ran out of time last night in our Wednesday night discussion, so didn't really get much on this one. Curious for thoughts by Onenski, Joshua, and kochiekoch ...and anyone else.

VS28 - One must not approve of those who are excessively eager for friendship, nor those who are reluctant. But one must be willing to run some risks for the sake of friendship. - Inwood and Gerson

Thoughts:

If you are too eager you aren't paying attention to the risks. If you are too reluctant then your fears are getting in the way.

TauPhi you had a good interpretation last night in our study meeting...I am trying to remember what you said?

Quote from Cassius

It appears that Lucretius is separating out two aspects of the defects in the "jar" - (1) the jar is leaking and cannot be filled due to leaks caused by the holes, and (2) that the jar tainted all that it took in as with a foul odor.

For the purposes of brainstorming a graphic I am seeing two different jars here:

1) A cracked jar which can't hold wine - lack of gratitude for the good things one already has and irrational desires for things that are unnecessary for a truly happy life - so it is as if there is no pleasures which satisfy.

2) A jar contaminated with dirt or mold (perhaps the wine is also fermenting into vinegar and tastes terrible) - fear and anxiety turn any pleasure into something painful.

There are other interesting videos listed (but not sure if they require a subscription). One that caught my eye was "Did the Eruption of Mt. Vesuvius Help Spread Christianity"

Odyssey - Ancient History Documentaries

Odyssey is your journey into the world of Ancient History; from the dawn of Mesopotamia to the fall of Rome. We'll be bringing you only the best documentaries…

www.youtube.com

For anyone interested in Roman history - I found this very long video which looks very good:

The Complete History of the Roman Empire (it appears that this is free, however other videos may require a subscription).

Quote from Cassius

What is the difference between a remedy and a truth?

Snow is cold, honey is sweet - these both do not require much thought and these are both true factually. A remedy requires further thought beyond what is easily seen as true. Because death seems like such a difficult and fearful thing to think about, many people don't ever get to the point of thinking about the "truth" that if consciousness and sensation is not present then there will not be a sense of "I" after death. A remedy is truth that requires inductive reasoning.

Most people don't spend time contemplating the feeling of no pain present in either body or mind (yet with no active stimulation of the senses) as a peasant feeling. Most poeple label no pain and no active stimulation of the senses as being a neutral state -- but this is incorrect and leads to problems (making poor choices and avoidances).

Let me know if this makes sense.

Quote from Cassius

In other words, are we confident why Cicero was wrong to insist that most people are experiencing neither pleasure nor pain?

I hypothesize that when Epicurus stated "the feelings are two: pleasure and pain" that it was a "remedy" not a "truth" -- and it is similar in nature to the "remedy" of contemplating that "death is nothing to us". Contemplation of there being only two feelings is a kind of "reframing" of how we think of the nature of pleasure.

And so Cicero had not understood this remedy.

A "neutral" feeling would not tell you if something is desirable or not.