Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

Pleasure is the global term; tranquility and ataraxia are fully contained within the word pleasure, but "pleasure" is not fully contained within tranquility or ataraxia. There are pleasures which do not involve tranqulity or calmness or any other similar term. Are those other pleasures less "worthy" than calmness?

I wonder if the idea of "mixed" pleasure might need some further examination because it seems that there may be pleasures which are mixed with a tinge of mental uncertainty. There are times in life when you chose pleasures in which you are uncertain what the final result will be (mental pain or a minor problem may result but you are fairly confident that you won't end up physically wounded or dead).

And thought that came to me regarding "pleasure is the absence of pain" is that this is simply a guide or a tool to find moderation...rather than arbitrarily deciding "I will only eat one heaping full plate of spaghetti" then if you use the phrase "pleasure is the absence of pain" to decide to stop eating when you aren't feeling hungry anymore.

So it is moderation based on sensation and not on abstractions.

Is this a reference to beginning and the end... does this mirror 'alpha and omega' in letter to Menoeceus?

This website helps visualize calorie intake, plus has meal planning ideas:

For men:

7-Day Diet Meal Plan to Lose Weight: 1,800 Calories

This 1,800-calorie meal plan is designed to help you feel energized and satisfied while losing weight. See what's on the menu.

www.eatingwell.com

For women:

What Does a 1,200-Calorie Diet Look Like?

What do 1,200 calories look like? Check out this sample meal plan to help you lose weight with healthy ideas for breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks.

www.eatingwell.com

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Edit note: Athough, I would suggest swapping out grains and instead eating root vegetables for carbs, since grains can increase the hunger hormone ghrelin. Here are some recipes: https://www.foodandwine.com/vegetables/roo…getable-recipes

Quote from Todd

Naive calorie restriction is difficult because when carbohydrates are consumed every few hours, the fat-burning mechanisms are not utilized to a sufficient degree to signal the body to develop them. When glucose runs out, even though there may be stored body fat available, the fat-burning mechanisms aren't capable of meeting the body's demands, and the body demands more glucose, like an addict.

It is important to eat protein with carbs. Otherwise insulin spikes too high with carbohydrate only consumption, and then will have a sudden crash (blood sugars can suddenly fall too low), which brings on food cravings for more carbs (eating oatmeal for breakfast always does this to me). So I think Todd is on to something about the body not being able to access fat stores.

Quote from Novem

I've also eaten less at meals, eat big salads to fill me up with low calorie-high volume foods, and ensure I get quite a bit of protein. It's also what I call lazy Mediterranean since I just get olives, feta and goat cheese, and Italian dressing or Balsamic vinaigrette

I do think that eating less calories at meals is very important for weight lose. Increasing the amount of vegetables is also great as Novem shared. Also not snacking between meals unless you are absolutely certain that you are actually hungry. How and what we eat is all about habits we develop (good or bad)...and it is just a matter of thinking through what is the best thing to do (and what leads to happiness and health of the body). Instead of snacking one could drink tea or go for a short walk. Also, I've observed that the pleasure of food is best (most intense) when I eat when truly hungry. And that was one reason I stopped using a keto diet, because I lost all interest in food. I realized that I rather feel the pain of hunger so that I could truly savor the food that I was eating.

In the past two years I've been eating more calories than I needed, and gained 10 lbs. One thing that happens is that when I go out to a restuarant I tend to over-eat. Also snacking on nuts (which are high in calories! Plus I have a "sweet tooth" lol ). My goal is to lose 10 lbs. and I have a food diary (which I started a week ago) to keep track of what I eat and then I can really see what I am eating. I also estimate the calorie content as well, and I will use a scale to weigh myself to see if I am making any progress.

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Edit note: My goal for weight loss is to aim for 1200 calories per day, which should give a slow reduction of weight over the next few months.

nothelpfuldoug welcome to the forum!

PD26 - "The desires that do not bring pain when they go unfulfilled are not necessary; indeed they are easy to reject if they are hard to achieve or if they seem to produce harm." (Saint-Andre translation).

My comments regarding this:

This Principal Doctrine helps an individual determine which desires to pursue, in a given situation:

-- If I do not achieve xyz, will it bring pain or a bad result?

-- If I do achieve xyz, will it bring pain or a bad result?

-- Is it very difficult to achieve xyz such that the chances of achieving it are very slim or attempting to achieve it will keep me from achieving something else equally important?

And at the same time we remember PD8: "No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves." (Saint-Andre translation).

So as I see it, we only label something as "unnecessary" dependent upon a specific person in a specific situation.

Quote from Faria Dantes

I am off to learn about absolute virtues now.

You have likely found this part of the forum, which explains "no absolute virtues":

The Virtue Of Nature - No Absolute Virtue

Faria Dantes welcome to the forum!

Quote from Pacatus

I grew up with the following words in the Confession: "Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean." Year after year after year ...

Perhaps we could create an antidote (and an alternative for all future Epicureans) based on the "wise man sayings" (from Diogenes Laertius' Lives of Eminent Philosophers Book 10) and maybe add in some of the PDs (this could take some thinking and some work to decide what to include, and also if it should be called "The Sayings of the Wise" rather than "The Wise Man Sayings").

This doesn't list an author, but presents material by DeWitt:

Quote

Scholars have known for a long time that Paul's Greek vocabulary differs substantially from that of the Gospel writers. The following words are used rarely, if not at all, by the Gospel writers, but were standard words in Epicurean texts:

Makarismos (cf. Gal. 4:15): technical term in Epicurean philosophy for unalloyed joy, the ultimate end of a life of right reason and right action. Recall that Aristotle also used it in Book 10 of his Nicomachean Ethics to describe the highest state of contemplation.

Calculus (cf. Philip. 4:8): usually rendered as "think" or "meditate." It was used widely by the Epicureans. It does not occur in the New Testament except in Paul. "Meditate on these things" is repeated in Epicurean texts (e.g., p. 80).

Autarkes (cf. Philip. 4:11-12): used by many of the Hellenistic philosophies but used only by Paul in the New Testament. Paul's meaning here is the same as Epicurus' conception of autarkes--being content with little or with what the circumstances provide.

Aidios (cf. Rom. 1:20): "eternal" as in God's eternal power. It is used by Epicurus to describe his atoms. The only New Testament writer besides Paul to use it is the author of Jude. It almost seems as if Paul deliberately used this Epicurean technical term to "twit" the Epicureans in their mistaken belief in the incorruptibility of nature.

Nouthetesis (cf. 1 Thes. 5:12): "admonition" in this sense is a technical term straight from Epicurean manuals. Its sense is "correction without blame or reprimand."

Although there are no direct references to Epicurus, DeWitt has gathered an impressive list of allusions that are in his opinion unmistakable in their indication. Here are just some of them:

"Peace and Safety" (1 Thes. 5:3). These were the watchwords of all Epicureans and DeWitt...

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Here is a good article, about happiness and sex, "It's not sex that makes you heathier and happier--it's what you do before and after":

It’s not sex that makes you healthier and happier—it’s what you do before and after

The secret to happy people and happy couples isn't weekly sex—it's something far simpler, and sweeter.

qz.com

I am wondering if VS41 and 42 should be read together as one unit?

"One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy. At the very same time, the greatest good is created and the greatest evil is removed." (Saint-Andre translation)

Quote from Cassius

I realize sex and reproduction are not the same question but I would analyze them largely together.

There were birth control methods back in time, read about them here -- but ease and availability of the modern use of birth control (and for a time there was legal abortion in the USA -- Roe vs. Wade passed in 1973 but was overturned June 2022) -- the pill created the freedom to enjoy sex without concern for pregnancy.

Here is a good article on enjoying the sensual quality of sex through tantra:

What is tantric sex? Definition and how to practice

What is tantric sex? Read on discover the definition, processes, breathing techniques, and positions of tantric sex, as well as how to prepare for it.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Quote from Joshua

Lucretius is supportive of sex as a way to satisfy the claims of the body, but he is critical of romantic love. I'll be at more liberty to comment when I get home from work.

The mores of the time of ancient Greece were such that prostitutes were legal and were taxed. So if a man developed a romantic attachment to a prostitute it would lead to problems, since he could never be assured of her love (as she would have other clients, and perhaps was pitting him to try to make him jealous).

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

it makes things difficult outside of one night stands which as you move from early 20s to early 30s become less desirably it seems for most.

Just want to mention that "one night stands" -- may or many not bring more pain then pleasure, it depends on both parties fully understanding the terms of the encounter. And before considering a "one night stand" one should contemplate this guidance:

PD5: "It is not possible to live joyously without also living wisely and beautifully and rightly, nor to live wisely and beautifully and rightly without living joyously; and whoever lacks this cannot live joyously."

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

I wanted to make a new topic about another question as well. It seems so many young people (18-50) are just not having sex. Men but also women increasingly as well. I couldn't find the exact quote but it's something like "I can't distinguish the Good without sex, food etc.." Why do you think young people are leaving sex behind despite increasing secularization?

I found this very good article about the trend of less sex (in California), which brings up lots of reasons why (and also briefly mentions an increase in depression).

A 'failure to launch': Why young people are having less sex

Nearly 40% of young adults surveyed in California in 2021 had no sexual partners in the prior year. Millennials and Gen Zers are having less sex than earlier…

www.latimes.com

There are other reasons which the article doesn't fully address: perhaps modern sex-education (which likely occurs in California) increases the fear of sexually transmitted diseases...The awareness of disease is so prevalent and the fear of disease is so great that no one wants to risk it. And perhaps there is a higher incidence of sexually transmitted diseases going around.

Also, maybe technology (cellphones/internet) is subduing the mind-body connection so that people are less aware of sensations of the body.

Epicurus didn't know about the bodily chemicals of dopamine and seratonin, but yet he was referring to the good feelings that arise with food, sex, etc. One can only determine for themselves if they don't need sex -- so this is a subjective feeling that is up to each individual. If it is too difficult to find a romantic partner and to do so safely, then one must find other physical enjoyments.

List of human life issues for which there are Epicurean philosophical remedies (there are specific Principal Doctrines and Vatican Sayings (etc) which address these issues).

There are Epicurean remedies for the following:

--anxiety that arises when realizing we are mortal and will one day die.

--anxiety that arises when we notice a drive to preserve our life for as long as possible.

--anxiety and fear that arises when we are sick and experience pain in the body (understanding the nature of pain).

--problems which arise when we pursue pleasure without proper understanding - that we must remember to do so in a manner which takes into account the long-term results.

--problems which arise due to an incorrect understanding of pleasure - prevention of problems by understanding the nature of pleasure and its limits and its maximum (natural boundaries) thereby opening up our ability to see all of our options for doing what is necessary for the long-term happiness of the soul.

--being dominated by the groundless opinions of others - recognition that pleasure and avoidance of pain is a natural drive and the contemplation of what is necessary for happiness for the body and the mind gives a guide for making the best choices, and that pleasure and a pleasant life is readily available (we don't need to be rich to attain it).

--incorrect understanding of pleasure - physical pleasures are of the nature to be in movement (with a beginning, middle, and end), but the mental pleasures have longer stability as we contemplate the goodness of being alive (pleasure is attainable when our lives are safe and secure, and we think on our good memories and future anticipations of good things and good friendships).

(This may need some revision, and perhaps I missed something?)

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November 11, 2023

Two additional points:

--anxiety from religious fears

--fear that arises from lack of knowledge

Another thing to consider, since in modern times we have a much more complete understanding of the natural world and phenomenon, as compared to the ancient world, is that our current scientific understanding surpasses what ancient Epicureans believed. Yet, the ethics aspects of how to live a happy life still applies. So I don't have to believe all (regarding the nuances of natural physics) of what Epicurus taught to still see myself as "being an Epicurean", because I still see myself as understanding the world as being natural not supernatural, and also that pleasure is a guide of life.

JMGuimas welcome to the forum! Let us know here in this thread if you have any questions

Also, during the meeting I mentioned how the wearing of Epicurus rings might have been a way to identify oneself with the Epicurean philosophy. Joshua, toward the end of the meeting you found something regarding cups and rings which you read to us...can you post a link for that?