Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Onenski

Skepticism about free will, I think, is a personal position of mine, and it is perhaps the one that makes me wonder things like: if the study of nature pointed out that we do not have free will, would Epicurus accept it?

Can I assume that if I were to say: "There is no such thing as free will" that this means that I am not actually choosing anything and that everything always is predetermined by forces outside of my conscious mind? Such that we are saying that what appears to be free will is just an illusion? Or can we say "free will" = an individual's ability to choose.

Quote from Cassius

In the case of free will, Epicurus is being very clear that some things are determined while others are not. Both are affirmed to be true.

Here is an example: I drink a large cup of tea. I then need to go pee. There is something in my mind which is registering pleasure and pain sensations throughout my body, and it is also balanced by my awareness of mental thoughts. Perhaps I am sitting with friends and I want to hear someone finish a story so I sit and wait till the end, and then excuse myself. But maybe I am fed up with hearing a story, so I leave before the end. There are millions of insignificant events that can't possibly be predetermined. As we become more aware of how to skillfully deal with pleasure and pain, it actually increases our ability to freely choose.

I have more thoughts on this but perhaps I will add more later

• Wednesday, December 27, 2023
• Please join us. (Post here in this thread if you have never attended one of these sessions as we have an approval process for new participants.)
• Vatican Sayings 54 and 55
  • VS54

    We must not pretend to study philosophy, but study it in reality, for it is not the appearance of health that we need, but real health.

    
    
  • VS55

    We must heal our misfortunes by the grateful recollection of what has been, and by the recognition that it is impossible to undo that which has been done.

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• Old matters to address

• Any current threads

• Discuss latest podcast

• Any new matters for next week's Agenda

Next Monday is our First Monday Zoom on January 1st!

This Meet-and-greet and Epicurean philosophy discussion is a great way for both long-time members -and- new members to meet with others who are studying the philosophy of Epicurus -- and as the Letter to Menoeceus says: "So practice these and similar things day and night, by yourself and with a like-minded friend, and you will never be disturbed whether waking or sleeping, and you will live as a god among men: for a man who lives in the midst of immortal good is unlike a merely mortal being."

If you haven't yet participated in a First Monday Zoom meeting, please message Cassius for further info.

Agenda for the evening: We will run about an hour, and start with greetings. Since this will be the first day of the new year, a great topic to discuss is VS48 and the intersection of pleasure, planning, and New Year resolutions -- We'll have a few questions to throw out to spur on the discussion, and we'll also leave some time for open discussion as well, and Q&A for any who have questions.

Hope to see you there!

General Overview:

Join us on the first Monday of every month for our forum-wide meet-and-greet and Epicurean philosophy discussion, for registered members of EpicureanFriends.com. Each month we present a special discussion topic, and these will be announced in the dedicated thread for each specific meeting.

For new members who have not attended any previous Zoom meetings: please be sure that you have posted in your personal Welcome Thread, with an introduction of yourself and any background info (such as any previous Epicurean philosophy studies or any other previous philosophy studies). Then let us know if you would like to attend a specific meeting by posting your request into the dedicated specific meeting date. (If you have any questions message Cassius or Kalosyni).

I found this poem, which reminds me of that poem by Philodemus inviting Piso:

Inviting a Friend to Supper

By Ben Jonson

Tonight, grave sir, both my poor house, and I

Do equally desire your company;

Not that we think us worthy such a guest,

But that your worth will dignify our feast

With those that come, whose grace may make that seem

Something, which else could hope for no esteem.

It is the fair acceptance, sir, creates

The entertainment perfect, not the cates.

Yet shall you have, to rectify your palate,

An olive, capers, or some better salad

Ushering the mutton; with a short-legged hen,

If we can get her, full of eggs, and then

Lemons, and wine for sauce; to these a cony

Is not to be despaired of, for our money;

And, though fowl now be scarce, yet there are clerks,

The sky not falling, think we may have larks.

I’ll tell you of more, and lie, so you will come:

Of partridge, pheasant, woodcock, of which some

May yet be there, and godwit, if we can;

Knat, rail, and ruff too. Howsoe’er, my man

Shall read a piece of Virgil, Tacitus,

Livy, or of some better book to us,

Of which we’ll speak our minds, amidst our meat;

And I’ll profess no verses to repeat.

To this, if ought appear which I not know of,

That will the pastry, not my paper, show of.

Digestive cheese and fruit there sure will be;

But that which most doth take my Muse and me,

Is a pure cup of rich Canary wine,

Which is the Mermaid’s now, but shall be mine;

Of which had Horace, or Anacreon tasted,

Their lives, as so their lines, till now had lasted.

Tobacco, nectar, or the Thespian spring,

Are all but Luther's beer to this I sing.

Of this we will sup free, but moderately,

And we will have no Pooley, or Parrot by,

Nor shall our cups make any guilty men;

But, at our parting we will be as when

We innocently met. No simple word

That shall be uttered at our mirthful board,

Shall make us sad next morning or affright

The liberty that we’ll enjoy tonight.

Quote from Pacatus

but I was struck by the reference (quoting the SOFE folk) to Eikas as a kind of “sabbath.”

Thanks Pacatus, this article presents the Epicurean practice of Eikas, and it is mostly a good write-up. I think it may be important that as we move forward, we make sure to describe what we do much more precisely as well as avoid calling it an "Epicurean sabbath" -- especially since Epicureanism is very different than the Jewish faith, and we have very different beliefs -- and Epicureanism is a philosophy not a religion.

For now we refer to the Twentieth as a "commemoration" / "gathering" / "celebration".

...and by the way...Happy Twentieth everyone!

...and Happy Winter Solstice too! (tomorrow)

I've been listening to these lectures (one per book - a total of 6 separate videos) and he mentions in part 2 (on book 2) that there appears to be a missing section of the text, because it skips suddenly to speaking about the gods. It's possible that this is most observable in the Latin text - have not located the section yet (not able to read Latin, and tried finding it in the English translation at the Perseus-Tufts site).

I think these are very good lectures, as I've only skimmed parts of Lucretius, and so this helps flesh it out.

From Martin's photo we can see that it is a very straight look on the lips of Epicurus. Also he seems to be looking downward -- if you factor in that the statue is placed upon a pedestal then you see that that downward gaze is actually a place of power, as he is looking down at the viewer (the pedestal lifts up the form slightly higher than the viewer). So it seems that this seriousness conveys power.

As for a smile, it can convey comraderie, affection, and enjoyment and as modern people I can see that we do need that conveyed at times, whether in one's imagination or in new artistic works.

And as far as creating more graphics which show Epicurus extolling the teachings, I would appreciate anyone uploading images (both serious or slight smile) which you think would help convey wisdom and the aura of a great teacher. And specifically state those that you think would work in graphics.

Welcome kasprowy !

Just in case anyone else is interested...I wanted to share what I've been finding regarding space weather, and since we are nearing the solar maximum of sun flares and sun spots.

This is interesting to me both because of the science and also because I am attempting to assess the probability of whether or not a strong CME might hit Earth and affect technology, the electrical grid, and of course the internet.

At first glance it may seem like a "dooms-day" scenario, but as I've been reading that there is as high as a 25 percent probability of something really strong occuring (have to go back and find the source on that statistic).

For myself, it seems relevant to the Epicurean understanding of the nature of things...and also it lends itself to remembering to consider self-sufficiency (although I am no prepper, but possibly this may turn me into becoming one ).

So from a purely scientific stand-point here are five webpages:

Space weather: What is it and how is it predicted?

Space weather can wreak havoc on our technological world.

www.space.com

Quote

There are two distinct types of solar storm: Geomagnetic storms and solar radiation storms.

The first of these refers to strong disturbances to Earth's magnetic field caused by ejected solar material called a coronal mass ejection (CME). The second. refers to a stream of much faster moving particles ejected by the sun. According to NOAA's National Weather Service, solar radiation storms involve large quantities of protons and electrons which bathe the near-Earth satellite environment, these storms can last from a few hours to days, depending on the magnitude of the eruption.

A large solar storm could knock out the internet and power grid — an electrical engineer explains how

Every few centuries the Sun blasts Earth with a huge amount of high-energy particles. If it were to happen today, it would wreak havoc on technology.

www.astronomy.com

Space Weather Enthusiasts Dashboard | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center

NOAA Space Weather Scales | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center

Space weather effects on technology

Martin do you have any close-up (just the face) and straight-on photos of Epicurus from your museum tour?

As I look at all the images that Eikadistes shared, it does seem that the low brow bone and furrowed forehead is a distinctive feature of Epicurus' face.

I would say that "serious" falls into "a knowing face (neither smiling nor frowning)".

Of course everyone has individual preferences. I notice too that whether the face is looking directly forward or 3/4 angle also changes the feeling...as does eyes looking up or straight forward. And whether there is a slight smile - that is up to individual perception perhaps (how slight a smile could be to qualify as as being slight).

Sometime in the future I would hope that our logo could be upgraded...and I would propose a knowing face (neither smiling nor frowning).

It looks likely that the source for the current drawing might have been this:

But you can see it is a slightly different facial expression on our logo.

Okay, I have been pondering this (which I didn't fully explain in the first post above) ...bear with me here...I think that there is a time and place for a "smiling Epicurus"...

...but I am now thinking that perhaps that place is in one's imagination. Likely if Epicurus was teaching about the nature of things (atoms and void, etc.) then he had a serious expression. Smiling evolved from primates as a sign of submission, and even now a lecturer or presentor who smiles too much appears less confident.

So I am thinking now that the Epicurus who represents the teachings should be somewhat serious looking.

I often wish that the imagery of Epicurus had more "warmth", however smiling in portraiture is a late modern phenomenon which came about following advances in photographic technology.

Back in ancient times, for the likeness to be captured correctly I would imagine that people would sit and pose for the sculptor.

In early photography the subject had to hold still for a certain length of time.

Mark Twain had this to say: "A photograph is a very important document, and there is nothing more damning for posterity than a silly smile captured forever."

Likely people in ancient Greece felt the same (about sculptures), and this article sheds further light:

Why Is No One Smiling in Classic Portraits and Photographs? | Blog | Domestika

Learn why smiling was so uncommon in paintings and early photographs "Smile!" We listen to this phrase practically every time we pose for a photograph.…

www.domestika.org

Just found this article and wanted to post it (not sure if this is already on the forum) ...haven't fully read it yet but seems relevant to this thread discussion:

A New Defense of Hedonism about Well-Being

Quote from BrainToBeing

I think constantly in terms of "we" rather than "me". And, in the consideration of "we" I need to ask who would pay the price if I think only of me.

I've been thinking lately about modern civilization and the idea of "progress". Are we happier now than before we had all the modern inventions and modern medicine? Why are teens commiting suicide and shooters going to malls and killing people? Perhaps "progress" has not been made in the right places. People fear death and then try everything to prolong life, even though their quality of life is very unsatisfactory (if they cannot do everyday things and must have an attendent wash and help them toilet). Modern medicine is failing us, in that we live long but then are plagued by dementia.

So perhaps BrainToBeing your deep question is likely: "Who will take care of society and all the things that are required, including the self-sacrifice of leaders and workers, and all who do the work to make things "better"? In response I say: all over the world you can see that the political realm is full of corruption. And people are polarized between "religious-conservative "right-wrong" vs. democratic freedoms.

So I say the the "we" is not working. The "we" is corrupt. And we don't currently have a solution for this problem.

People ignore the fact that if they act in a manner in which others are harmed, then there will be bad consequences. The consequences I speak of are multifaceted. Epicurean philosophy reminds us of these consequences -- in which my long-term well-being will have a poor outcome whenever I cause harm to others - because by human nature we all have a drive to survive and stand up for ourselves when we are harmed (except for some who are so downtrodden that they cannot stand up for themselves). What ever we do will turn around and come back to us in some manner - and we can see that at play in current world events.