Posts by Kalosyni

Thank you Don, and this is especially relevant because we have five more Wednesday nights until we will be finishing up with the Vatican Sayings....and then we will be moving on to study fragments, which I am very much looking forward to because I haven't spent much time on them yet. Cassius is putting together a study list, and it will include various significant fragments from Usener's collection...and it will include some Philodemus fragments.

It appears that we will begin our new Wednesday night study focus on March 27th (if I have calculated correctly). More info will be coming out as that approaches.

Quote from Don

And this is exactly why those digitized papyri online are SO valuable. We all have access unimagined by earlier authors/scholars right at our fingertips.

In post 5 above Don you linked to a site but it doesn't have translations.

Then I also wonder if books written in later part of 20th century used old translations or their own translations.

I actually now have proof that Philodemus was influenced by the Stoics:

JSTOR article: Philodemus on Emotions

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43767829

I wasn't able to access the article but the Google entry says this:

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Philodemus' concept of 'bites' may have been influenced by earlier Stoic presents many affinities with them. Like the Stoics, he considers 'bites' natur.

I read sometime in the last month regarding the idea that at a certain point there were various groups of Epicurean communities with differing beliefs (it was in a V.Tsouna book, but haven't been able to find it).

Below is a chart of possible "flavors" of Epicureans (but there could be more) and of course it could be that these are blended in various ways - and - what I write here is all conjecture, plus it could depend on one's circumstances what kind of lifestyle is pursued. The following are just a few ideas:

I have an unconfirmed idea that back in the original Garden, Epicurus and his Garden were mostly of the flavor of "Natural Science and Learning", and that it was only in later Roman times that that the other two flavors developed. And was the Epicureanism of Philodemus influenced by the ideas of the Stoics?

This brings up a question of are these unreliable sources still out in publication (which ones are they) and what is a trusted source.

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Nonetheless, numerous editions of Philodemus’ works, especially early ones, are unreliable. Many were not based on a reading of the papyri themselves, but rather on the disegni, which are frequently wrong, and this led editors to be bolder about changing the texts presented in these copies, filling in gaps, and interpreting the results than they might have been had they read the papyri instead. In many such cases, better reading of the papyrus has shown that the text ran very differently indeed from the conjectures that have commonly served as the basis of reconstructions of the views of Philodemus and others. One common problem has been the mistaking of what turns out to be a citation of an opponent for something Philodemus himself maintains (and vice versa).

Philodemus (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I just wrote this in a new list on my personal outline thread:

"Pleasure and pain has natural limits because it is subject to increase and decrease, but we can learn to extend feelings of pleasure through cultivating a feeling of contentment through the memory of past pleasures, as well as gratitude for healthy functioning and the experience of being without pain."

So happiness (as a feeling of mental pleasure) comes and goes, but we can learn to extend it through cultivation of contentment.

Major areas of "existential" guidance suggested by Epicurean philosophy:

1. Put effort into developing prudence and friendship because these two things greatly contribute to leading a happy life
2. God is not involved with humans, so we must do what we can for ourselves rather than pray to God
3. There are no supernatural forces, but instead everything has natural causes
4. The "soul" dies with the body and there is no afterlife, so we do not need to fear what lies beyond death
5. Make this life the best that it can be by aiming for complete God-like bliss
6. Pleasure and pain has natural limits because it is subject to increase and decrease, but we can learn to extend feelings of pleasure through cultivating a feeling of contentment through the memory of past pleasures, as well as gratitude for healthy functioning and the experience of being without pain.

Issues in Epicurean philosophy of mind and science 2: The method of multiple explanations

https://www.bsa.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Tsouna_010421_ABSTRACT-HANDOUT.pdf

And this:

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When we deal with texts belonging to the Herculaneum papyri collection, we usually move from passages which are better preserved to those that are least well preserved. However, it has seemed best for systematic reasons to begin several chapters at or near the beginning of the extant texts that they discuss, although beginnings are typically more damaged than the columns that follow. When I proceed in this manner, I try to remain aware of the highly conjectural parts and, if possible, I interpret them in the light of better-known passages. Finally, my discussion of extremely fragmentary works—for instance, On Flattery—is informed by my understanding of texts which are in better shape and preferably belong to the same ensemble: for example, several continuous columns of On Arrogance. Even so, I should stress once more the tentative character of such interpretations.

I'm reading the introduction of Voula Tsouna's "The Ethics of Philodemus" (published in 2007)and found this regarding their fragmentary nature:

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As mentioned, I have kept down the technical aspects of Philodemus’ texts and have treated them as philosophical writings to the extent that this is possible. However, there are limitations to that effort which are set by the peculiar nature of the evidence and, especially, by the fact that many passages are fragmentary, and their restorations partly conjectural. I have tried to avoid the phenomenon that David Sedley was the first to characterize as ‘bracket blindness’: i.e., the tendency to overlook the brackets surrounding editorial restorations of a word or passage and thus develop interpretations based on slim or even non-existent evidence. But sometimes I have taken the liberty to interpret heavily supplemented passages when the interpretation that I propose finds support in the context.

I have used square brackets in my translations to indicate those places in which a given passage has been heavily restored, and hence its translation and interpretation are largely conjectural. On the other hand, I have not marked with square brackets supplementations where I have a high degree of confidence in their correctness. Overall, I have indicated that not everything in Philodemus is at the same level of certainty, and, moreover, I have demarcated places in which the evidence is particularly precarious. But I have not undertaken to show systematically here the special difficulties and pleasures of working with the texts of the Herculaneum papyri, although I hope that I have conveyed to my readers some sense of that too.

Tonight Vatican Sayings 69 & 70!

Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).

Tonight's Agenda:

1. Welcome
2. Discuss latest popular forum threads & latest podcast
3. Discussion on Vatican Sayings 69 & 70:

VS69. The ungrateful greed of the soul makes the creature everlastingly desire varieties in its lifestyle.

VS70. Let nothing be done in your life which will cause you fear if it becomes known to your neighbor.

• We will continue with the same Zoom link as previous Wednesday night meetings.
• Level 03 members - those who haven't previously attended, please let us know here in this thread if you are interested, or message me.
• Level 01 members - message me or Cassius if you are interested in attending (to be considered for approval by the moderator team).

Happy Valentine's Day!

Trying out this idea:

-- Perhaps there are multiple definitions of pleasure which are all correct, and it is all about common sense and making sure that we choose those things which will have a good outcome.

And further these thoughts come to mind:

When we have hunger or thirst, it is a pleasure to have that pain removed.

The enjoyment of stimulating pleasures of the five senses easily arises over and over again in the course of our everyday normal lives.

When we notice a moment that is free from both mental and physical pain, we can feel gratitude and reflect upon that moment as being a pleasure.

Happy memories both need to be made and remembered.

Friends (and family) are one of the most important ways of creating pleasurable moments.

There is no need to live in angst or agitation because these painful mental feelings have remedies.

Quote from Kalosyni

Pleasure" is the absence of mental pain (angst and agitation). Whenever we are free from angst and agitation (even if there is a feeling of pain in the physical body) we can call this state "pleasure".

I say this based on the story of Epicurus' letter right before his death, in which he was in pain but was happy because of the memory of his friend.

Quote from Bryan

That is true. Which is fortunate-- because such pleasure is only felt as a relief from pain.

This is also true: We feel total pleasure in most parts of our body, most of the time.

I don't think of smelling a rose as a relief from pain, nor is eating dessert!

Right now I am thinking of feeling as an "on" or "off" switch - when the light of awareness is "on" then I am either feeling pleasure or pain.

Also, here is a new idea (whether or not it is in alignment with what others think is correct:

"Pleasure" is the absence of mental pain (angst and agitation). Whenever we are free from angst and agitation (even if there is a feeling of pain in the physical body) we can call this state "pleasure".

Just trying this out, for now (but will probably come up with something else soon, lol ).

Quote from Bryan

the areas of active pain in my body have been limited to specific places and to specific times. Most of the time, most parts of my body are not feeling pain (even if my elbow hurts all the time).

Bryan , What would happen if you said this about pleasure:

...the areas of active pleasure in my body have been limited to specific places and to specific times. Most of the time, most parts of my body are not feeling [stimulative] pleasure.

Thoughts?

Quote from Kalosyni

It is a subjective and individual situation, so not something that is applied straight across the board - everyone needs to decide for themselves regarding "the absense of pain is the highest pleasure".

Thinking further on this...that on the opposite side of this idea is that this is too high of a bar to reach. If a person is looking to feel pleasure which is absent from pain, then they will be thinking with a mind-set which is looking to root out pain. This can quickly become depressing (and difficult to do). It may end up being better to think about choosing "pleasures with less pain" than "pleasures without any pain"...and choosing pleasures which crowd out the pain (and lead to health of the body and happiness of the soul).

It's important to remember that only the gods experience perfect pleasures.

Also, that means when I decide to stop buying candy, I need to choose something else pleasurable to do instead

Quote from Cassius

Yes it's better in terms of the physical health of the body, if that is your *only* measure of "better," but I don't think anyone can persuasively maintain that Epicurus would say (or we should think) that the "health of the body" is the only thing in play. Would or should *everyone* choose to eat a "cave-man" diet in order to live a longer number of days?

I am not proposing a special diet, nor am I thinking about living a long and healthy life, but I am instead thinking about the mental experience of immediate time. Some people may be able to keep sweets in the house without feeling compelled to eat them quickly and without feeling restless (constantly thinking about eating more sweets). And some people may not be using candy in this manner to alleviate boredom (creating a feedback loop of restlessness and agitation). It is a subjective and individual situation, so not something that is applied straight across the board - everyone needs to decide for themselves regarding "the absense of pain is the highest pleasure".

Quote from Cassius

When we speak of pleasure we speak of agreeableness, but exactly what kind of agreeableness is going to be personal to the individual living thing that is experiencing it. There are no Platonic ideals in any other aspect of life, and I don't think there is a Platonic ideal of "the highest pleasure" that fits everyone exactly the same way. Pleasure is ultimately a feeling and feelings aren't abstractions that can be stated in a precise mathematical or verbal formula. To employ one of the phrases we posted about recently: All models are 'wrong,' in that they are not the exact equivalent of the reality that they seek to describe, but some models (like "absence of pain") are useful, in that they help us understand how to target a goal.

Here is a possible example of a situation:

Let's say a person goes to the grocery store to buy some eggs (healthy and easy to make) and also sees a nice looking big bag of Easter candy chocolate eggs, and brings that home too. After eating a nice omlet for dinner he feels satisfied, but an hour later he then opens the bag of chocolate eggs and eats them even though he is not hungry. He enjoys them because the sweet taste is very enjoyable as he is eating them. In fact he often buys candy or chocolate and feels compelled and driven to eat it whenever there is a dull or boring moment, such that he has developed "a sweet tooth habit" and is also over-weight and is pre-diabetic. Even when he is not hungry he thinks of chocolate (a feeling of restlessness comes up). When the bag of candy is in the house it is almost impossible to not eat it and it doesn't last very long before it is all gone.

I would like to propose that by thinking through the idea that "the highest pleasure is the absense of pain" will provide some insight into the sense of discontent that is at play in this situation and provide an opportunity to develop contentment rather than be driven by compulsion. And the factor that most determines the outcome is to not buy the candy at the store. So this is an example of using this idea as a therapeutic tool.

In reading Cassius' article some questions and thoughts came up for me.

1. When Cicero uses Torquatus as the spokesman for Epicureans even though he (Torquatus) was a military man whose life was dictated by duty such that he was living life in a manner likely not recommended by Epicurus, does this in any way undermine or alter the reader's (of "On Ends") attitude toward Epicureans?

2. Some new ideas after reading this: "Absence of pain is the highest pleasure" is different than saying something like: "any pleasure without pain is the best kind of pleasure we can experience". And I now think it is possible that "absence of pain is the highest pleasure" is to be used as a remedy just like "death is nothing to us". It is a remedy for discontent, when you feel discontent even though you have everything you could possibly need: then you consider how absence of pain is the highest pleasure.