Posts by Kalosyni

Chryso Welcome to EpicureanFriends forum!

In last night's Zoom I presented the following Principal Doctrines (Long and Sedley translation) because these deal with the "limits of pleasure and pain" and are very important for one's personal hedonic calculus. These provide guidance so as not to be overcome by excessive desires or unwanted pains.

I used the Long and Sedley translation of selected Principal Doctrines and placed them in the following order:

11. “Were we not upset by the worries that celestial phenomena and death might matter to us, and also by failure to appreciate the limits of pains and desires, we would have no need for natural philosophy.”

10. “If the causes of the pleasures of the dissipated released mental fears concerning celestial phenomena and death and distress, and in addition taught the limit of desires, we should never have any reason to reproach them [i.e. the dissipated], since they would be satisfying themselves with pleasures from all directions and would never have pain or distress, which constitutes the bad.”

(*dissipated - of a person or way of life overindulging in sensual pleasures)

3. “The removal of all pain is the limit of the magnitude of pleasures. Wherever pleasure is present, as long as it is there, pain or distress or their combination is absent.”

18. “The pleasure in the flesh does not increase when once the pain of need has been removed, but it is only varied. And the limit of pleasure in the mind is produced by rationalizing those very things and their congeners which used to present the mind with its greatest fears."

(*congener - a thing or person of the same kind or category as another).

20. “The flesh places the limits of pleasure at infinity, and needs an infinite time to bring it about. But the intellect, by making a rational calculation of the end and the limit which govern the flesh, and by dispelling the fears about eternity, brings about the complete life, so that we no longer need the infinite time. But neither does it shun pleasure, nor even when circumstances bring about our departure from life does it suppose, as it perishes, that it has in any way fallen short of the best life.”

28. “Confidence that nothing terrible lasts for ever or even for a long time is produced by the same judgement that also achieves the insight that friendship's security within those very limitations is perfectly complete.”

4. “Pain does not last continuously in the flesh: when acute it is there for a very short time, while the pain which just exceeds the pleasure in the flesh does not persist for many days; and chronic illnesses contain an excess of pleasure in the flesh over pain.”

29. “Natural and necessary [desires], according to Epicurus, are ones which bring relief from pain, such as drinking when thirsty; natural but non-necessary are ones which merely vary pleasure but do not remove pain, such as expensive foods; neither natural nor necessary are ones for things like crowns and erection of statues.”

(excessive quantities of foods would make more sense here compared to expensive (if you are really hungry then food is food whether or not it is cheap or expensive).

30. “Whenever intense passion is present in natural desires which do not lead to pain if they are unfulfilled, these have their origin in empty opinion; and the reason for their persistence is not their own nature but the empty opinion of the person.”

21. “He who knows the limits of life knows how easy it is to obtain that which removes pain caused by want and that which makes the whole of life complete. He therefore has no need for competitive involvements.”

25. “If you fail to refer each of your actions on every occasion to nature's end, and stop short at something else in choosing or avoiding, your actions will not be consequential upon your theories.”

Thank you to all who attended last night's meeting!

We had a total of seven people. I gave a short presentation on several select Principal Doctrines, as translated by Long and Sedley - highlighting the importance of understanding the limits of pleasure and pain, and then we discussed how those PDs applied to everyday life.

I've posted source material from the presentation over in this other sub-forum.

This is a very good article, which helps with creating positive emotions, motivation, and good decision making with the actual practice of your imaginary future self writing a letter to your present self:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2024/03/28/future-self-present-well-being/

Perhaps something similar to Philodemus' "placing before the eyes" (not sure if we have anything on that on the forum yet).

For those who listen to this week's podcast, I want to explain that Cassius edited this (in order to speed it up) in such a way which makes it appear as if Joshua is interrupting me in mid-sentence, but that was not the case...I had paused to ask for the exact wording of PD5, and so Joshua was actually answering my request for the correct wording.

Regarding other philosophies in ancient Greece, here is an excerpt from a class description: "CLASSICS 35: The Good Life: An Introduction to Ancient Greek Ethical Philosophy" Standford.edu

Quote

The ancient Greeks longed for happiness, but life often led to suffering and anxiety. In ancient Greece, the traditional value system focused on gaining honor, wealth, power, and success - external goods that could be taken away at any time. The Greek philosophers Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle set forth ethical theories designed to alleviate suffering and anxiety. They rejected the traditional Greek value system, focusing on inner goodness rather than on external rewards. Developing inner goodness was the only way to live a happy and fulfilled life.

Most importantly, Epicurus restores back into the eudaimonia-well-being-happiness equation the physical world, both in understanding the natural world as arising due to natural causes rather than due to the gods, --and-- in experiencing the pleasure that the natural world easily gives us in day-to-day experiences (food, friends, and sensory experiences which bring enjoyment). Epicurus labels wealth and fame as "unnatural and unnecessary". Also, Epicurus does not narrow down everything to inner goodness, rather he says (in PD5) "living wisely and beautifully and rightly" is for the sake of creating a pleasurable life.

Coming up this next Monday is our First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Discussion - Via Zoom at 8pm ET -This is a great opportunity for meeting others who are also studying Epicurean philosophy -- and we especially want to invite new members to attend!

Agenda:

1. Welcome

2. Meet-and-greet (for new members who have not previously attended a Zoom meeting).

3. Short presentation "Practical Exercises in Applied Epicurean Philosophy" by Kalosyni

4. Open Epicurean Philosophy Discussion

We'll be sure to have time open for discussion beyond the special topic, or to discuss any current popular forum threads, or questions.

If you are new or haven't attended before -- let us know if you are interested by posting in this thread or message Cassius or myself.

Previous attendees will already be on the list and will receive a private message about a day or two before the meeting which will contain the link (no need to RSVP beforehand).

Hope to see you there!

Welcome to the forum shamalamadingdong -- your other post has been moved here into this thread. Perhaps some other members will have some comments for you regarding your interest in Voltaire (post 4 above).

Quote from Joshua

Unlike a hangover, neither eventuality is easily predictable.

Quote from Pacatus

feeling over-full after a delicious meal) will be less than the pleasure indulged (say, the taste-pleasure of the meal – one more bite of delicious fare)?

It really depends on if this is a very rare occurance or a regular habit. After a year of "one more bite" you may have gained 10 lbs. and then if that feels painful enough (pants are too tight to button) then you will have to implement a plan to create a calorie deficit ... i.e. ...a diet (which can be painful). You can't "cheat" with calories - nature will take its course if you eat more calories than you burn.

Also, if you look at the Letter to Menoeceus, it sheds some light on this matter:

"And because this is the primary and inborn good, we do not choose every pleasure. Instead, we pass up many pleasures when we will gain more of what we need from doing so. And we consider many pains to be better than pleasures, if we experience a greater pleasure for a long time from having endured those pains. So every pleasure is a good thing because its nature is favorable to us, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen — just as every pain is a bad thing, yet not every pain is always to be shunned. It is proper to make all these decisions through measuring things side by side and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages, for sometimes we treat a good thing as bad and a bad thing as good."

Quote from Pacatus

Does the pleasure/pain calculus only run one way sequentially?

So according to this you only endure pain if it leads you to "experience a greater pleasure for a long time from having endured those pains".

So I would say that the "one more bite" runs contrary to what is said in Letter to Menoeceus.

Also we have the Vatican Saying 59: "The stomach is not insatiable, as most people say; instead the opinion that the stomach needs unlimited filling is false."

And Vatican Saying 68: "Nothing is enough to one for whom enough is very little."

These almost have a bit of a harsh tone, but worth considering in the choice calculus.

Quote from Kalosyni

Suddenly the phrase "La Dolce Vita" pops into my mind

But as Epicureans, we have Vatican Saying 81:

"One will not banish emotional disturbance or arrive at significant joy through great wealth, fame, celebrity, or anything else which is a result of vague and indefinite causes."

So the "good life" (the removal of emotional disturbance combined with the addition of significant joy) won't happen by itself (or through vague and indefinite causes) and it requires the implementation of certain actions (causes).

Quote from Titus

I remember that the tenor in the German literature on eudaimonia tends to interpret the term as "living/having achieved the good life"

Suddenly the phrase "La Dolce Vita" pops into my mind, and thinking there might have been an earlier Italian original meaning (not the current "English" meaning of a life of excess luxury).

Here is a fun clip with an Italian guy explaining it:

Quote from Cassius

To say a little more about the plan for the Usener material

Sounds great Cassius! Thanks for putting it together, and I am looking forward to studying those fragments.

One more night of Vatican Sayings - tonight! ...and then on to all new material next week!

Tonight at 8pm ET - Vatican Sayings 80 & 81...This will be the last meeting on the Vatican Sayings.

Open to Level 03+ members and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team.

Agenda:

1. Welcome
2. Discuss latest popular forum threads & latest podcast
3. Discussion on Vatican Sayings 80 & 81:

VS80. The first measure of security is to watch over one’s youth, and to guard against what makes havoc of all by means of maddening desires.

VS81. The disturbance of the soul cannot be ended, nor true joy created, either by the possession of the greatest wealth, or by honor and respect in the eyes of the mob, or by anything else that is associated with, or caused by, unlimited desire.

• We will continue with the same Zoom link as previous Wednesday night meetings.
• Level 03 members who haven't previously attended (and need to get the link) please let us know here in this thread if you are interested in attending or message me.
• Level 01 members you can message Cassius if you are interested in attending (to be considered for approval by the moderator team).

Coming up on Wednesday April 3rd - the first night of Usener fragments discussion. We are going through the full Erik Anderson list and pulling out those which will best be suited for the zoom meetings, and if you have any suggestions for additions to or deletions from the list please use the comment feature on the page where we are setting this up. A full announcement on this will go up on the forum soon. A curated list can be found here.

Quote from Don

Would these be akin to Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

The idea of the pyramid is to present information in a manner which gives more weight and importance to the base, and each "good" builds upon the level below it. It is a guide to Epicurean eudaimonia, so different than Maslow's pyramid.

Thinking further about well-being, I made this very tenative graphic to think about the importance of "goods" in relation to happiness and well-being. The base of the pyramid is the most important, and the "goods" are pursued because they bring both "pleasure" and well-being.

Perhaps these could be organized by category...and not limited to ten quotes. Here are some suggestions.

--On the gods

--On natural physics

--On the criteria for truth

--On pleasure

--On the telos

--On happiness

--On justice

--On choices and avoidances

...etc...

Quote from Bryan

here is Butterfield's mapping of Oblongus and Quadratus.

Looks complicated, lots of codes and symbols...but you can see how all stems from one manuscript.

The various translations into English would add in a whole other dimension, for both DRN and Diogenes Book 10

Quote

Thus Usener has edited Book X. in Epicurea (1887)"

It almost seems like we need a flowchart showing how we got to what we have available in English to us now.

The article seems to say that "B" is the best manuscript:

Quote

"What is most necessary now is an edition such as has been long promised, showing the true tradition of the text when BPFCo (and any other good MSS.) have been stripped of the interpolations introduced by Byzantine or Italian scholars. The effect of interpolation superimposed on multifarious errors due to careless copyists is a diversity more apparent than real, which deceives only superficial examination. For we may reasonably assume that a single stray copy, brought to light in the ninth century, was the parent of all extant MSS.² The true text, it is agreed, is often preserved by B alone ; yet F, on which Cobet relied, is not seldom right, though it also palms off makeshift conjectures. Whether the class of inferior or interpolated MSS. supplies any genuine readings independent of BPF is a question sometimes raised ; in any case, not much is to be expected from this quarter. All that can be done by the most careful collation of MSS. has already been done for the more valuable part of Laertius—I mean the fragments of other authors with which his work is filled. Thus Usener has edited Book X. in Epicurea (1887)"

Quote from Don

τὸν θεὸν ζῷον "the god (is a) blessed and imperishable ζῷον. But what is a ζῷον?

First, note the singular "god." Not gods. This use of the singular - a god,

Possibility of transcription error? Perhaps it was originally plural.