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the areas of active pain in my body have been limited to specific places and to specific times. Most of the time, most parts of my body are not feeling pain (even if my elbow hurts all the time).
Bryan , What would happen if you said this about pleasure:
...the areas of active pleasure in my body have been limited to specific places and to specific times. Most of the time, most parts of my body are not feeling [stimulative] pleasure.
Thoughts?
It is a subjective and individual situation, so not something that is applied straight across the board - everyone needs to decide for themselves regarding "the absense of pain is the highest pleasure".
Thinking further on this...that on the opposite side of this idea is that this is too high of a bar to reach. If a person is looking to feel pleasure which is absent from pain, then they will be thinking with a mind-set which is looking to root out pain. This can quickly become depressing (and difficult to do). It may end up being better to think about choosing "pleasures with less pain" than "pleasures without any pain"...and choosing pleasures which crowd out the pain (and lead to health of the body and happiness of the soul).
It's important to remember that only the gods experience perfect pleasures.
Also, that means when I decide to stop buying candy, I need to choose something else pleasurable to do instead 
Yes it's better in terms of the physical health of the body, if that is your *only* measure of "better," but I don't think anyone can persuasively maintain that Epicurus would say (or we should think) that the "health of the body" is the only thing in play. Would or should *everyone* choose to eat a "cave-man" diet in order to live a longer number of days?
I am not proposing a special diet, nor am I thinking about living a long and healthy life, but I am instead thinking about the mental experience of immediate time. Some people may be able to keep sweets in the house without feeling compelled to eat them quickly and without feeling restless (constantly thinking about eating more sweets). And some people may not be using candy in this manner to alleviate boredom (creating a feedback loop of restlessness and agitation). It is a subjective and individual situation, so not something that is applied straight across the board - everyone needs to decide for themselves regarding "the absense of pain is the highest pleasure".
When we speak of pleasure we speak of agreeableness, but exactly what kind of agreeableness is going to be personal to the individual living thing that is experiencing it. There are no Platonic ideals in any other aspect of life, and I don't think there is a Platonic ideal of "the highest pleasure" that fits everyone exactly the same way. Pleasure is ultimately a feeling and feelings aren't abstractions that can be stated in a precise mathematical or verbal formula. To employ one of the phrases we posted about recently: All models are 'wrong,' in that they are not the exact equivalent of the reality that they seek to describe, but some models (like "absence of pain") are useful, in that they help us understand how to target a goal.
Here is a possible example of a situation:
Let's say a person goes to the grocery store to buy some eggs (healthy and easy to make) and also sees a nice looking big bag of Easter candy chocolate eggs, and brings that home too. After eating a nice omlet for dinner he feels satisfied, but an hour later he then opens the bag of chocolate eggs and eats them even though he is not hungry. He enjoys them because the sweet taste is very enjoyable as he is eating them. In fact he often buys candy or chocolate and feels compelled and driven to eat it whenever there is a dull or boring moment, such that he has developed "a sweet tooth habit" and is also over-weight and is pre-diabetic. Even when he is not hungry he thinks of chocolate (a feeling of restlessness comes up). When the bag of candy is in the house it is almost impossible to not eat it and it doesn't last very long before it is all gone.
I would like to propose that by thinking through the idea that "the highest pleasure is the absense of pain" will provide some insight into the sense of discontent that is at play in this situation and provide an opportunity to develop contentment rather than be driven by compulsion. And the factor that most determines the outcome is to not buy the candy at the store. So this is an example of using this idea as a therapeutic tool.
In reading Cassius' article some questions and thoughts came up for me.
1. When Cicero uses Torquatus as the spokesman for Epicureans even though he (Torquatus) was a military man whose life was dictated by duty such that he was living life in a manner likely not recommended by Epicurus, does this in any way undermine or alter the reader's (of "On Ends") attitude toward Epicureans?
2. Some new ideas after reading this: "Absence of pain is the highest pleasure" is different than saying something like: "any pleasure without pain is the best kind of pleasure we can experience". And I now think it is possible that "absence of pain is the highest pleasure" is to be used as a remedy just like "death is nothing to us". It is a remedy for discontent, when you feel discontent even though you have everything you could possibly need: then you consider how absence of pain is the highest pleasure.
Which brings up an interesting question: Should more of us be posting to substack to increase the epicurean content "outside our Garden"? Or should we use Cassius' new outlet to simply expand the outlet of voices?
I personally think every person should make their own substack. (I may create one, or may use another platform.) There must be a way to recommend other substack content, with a link.
Vatican Saying 59 says: "The stomach is not insatiable, as most people say; instead the opinion that the stomach needs unlimited filling is false."
I found this interesting article on how to deal with eating too much.
Here are a few excerpts:
Your Brain Wants the Food—Not Your Body
Remember the last time you ate so much steamed broccoli, you could barely get off the couch but just kept going back for more? Probably not. Hedonic hunger tends to be activated by calorie-dense foods that are pleasurable to eat; in other words, anything fatty, fried, salty, or sweet.1 When our ancestors were scrabbling for nuts and berries, hedonic hunger wasn’t a thing. But then someone figured out how to turn milk into butter, and someone else figured out that potatoes taste amazing when you cut them into sticks and drop them into a vat of hot fat, and everything changed.
“Over the course of our evolution, our taste range has gone from ‘This tastes awful but will keep me alive’ to ‘This tastes good’ to ‘Holy cow, this is so delicious.’ It makes it hard for us to hold back,” says Michael Lowe, PhD, a psychology professor at Drexel University who coined the term hedonic hunger to distinguish it from homeostatic hunger, which stems from your body’s need for energy (i.e. that rumbling in your stomach when you haven’t eaten in hours).
How “The Variety Effect” Factors In
What else makes us more inclined to eat for pleasure? Having a bounty of options on hand. The more we can choose from, the more we’re likely to consume, a phenomenon known as the variety effect. And working alongside the variety effect is sensory-specific satiety: Imagine you eat all the brisket and green beans you think you can hold, and the sheer delight of those first few bites has faded—but then cheesecake shows up, promising to tickle a different set of taste buds, and you suddenly have “room.”
How to Stop Overeating and Manage Hedonic Hunger
Of course, there’s nothing wrong with hungering for delicious food. By all means, rejoice and be grateful to spend this holiday eating meals you love with people you love. But if you’re consistently wishing you could reduce the cravings a bit, here are a few ideas that may help soothe the neurochemical urge to eat every single thing. They may sound like often cited chestnuts (mmm, roasted chestnuts), but that’s because they’ve been repeatedly proven by research.
The article also includes further tips:
-- make sure you are getting enough sleep, manage stress, identify what kinds of situations are triggers, consider the consequences, visualize yourself sitting in a beautiful and relaxing environment, get some exercise, try cognitive behavioral therapy.
Read more on this here:
ataraktosalexandros Welcome to forum! 
Here is a list of Philodemus works, on Wikipedia:
This is a list of the major works of Philodemus found so far at Herculaneum.
Historical works
- Index Stoicorum (PHerc. 1018)
- Index Academicorum (PHerc. 164, 1021)
- On the Stoics (PHerc. 155, 339)
- On Epicurus (PHerc. 1232, 1289)
- Works on the Records of Epicurus and some others (PHerc. 1418, 310)
- To Friends of the School (PHerc. 1005)
Scientific works
- On Phenomena and Inferences (PHerc. 1065)
Theological writings
Ethics edit
- On Vices and Virtues, book 7 (On Flattery) (PHerc. 222, 223, 1082, 1089, 1457, 1675)
- On Vices and Virtues, book 9 (On Household Management) (PHerc. 1424)
- On Vices and Virtues, book 10 (On Arrogance) (PHerc. 1008)
- Comparetti Ethics (named after its first editor; PHerc. 1251)
- On Death (PHerc. 1050)
- On Frank Criticism (PHerc. 1471)
- On Anger (PHerc. 182)
On rhetoric, music, and poetry
- On Rhetoric (on many papyri)
- On Music (PHerc. 1497)
- On Poems (on many papyri)
- On the Good King according to Homer (PHerc. 1507)
Unpublished Fragments
Editions
- Fleischer, Kilian Josef (2023). Philodem, Geschichte der Akademie: Einführung, Ausgabe, Kommentar. Leiden; Boston: Brill. ISBN 9789004546530.
English translations
- Philodemus: On Anger. (2020), David Armstrong & Michael McOsker. SBL. ISBN 1628372699
- Philodemus: On Death. (2009), W. Benjamin Henry. SBL. ISBN 1-58983-446-1
- Philodemus: On Frank Criticism. (1998), David Konstan, Diskin Clay, Clarence, E. Glad. SBL. ISBN 1-58983-292-2
- Philodemus: On Methods of Inference. 2nd edition. (1978). Phillip Howard De Lacy, Estelle Allen De Lacy. Bibliopolis.
- Philodemus, On Piety, Part 1. (1996). Critical Text with Commentary by Dirk Obbink. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-815008-3
- Philodemus, On Poems, Book 1. (2001). Edited with Introduction, Translation, and Commentary by Richard Janko. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-815041-5
- Philodemus, On Poems, Book 2, with the fragments of Heracleodorus and Pausimachus. (2020). Edited with Introduction, Translation, and Commentary by Richard Janko. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780198835080
- Philodemus, On Poems, Books 3-4, with the Fragments of Aristotle, On Poets. (2010). Edited with Introduction, Translation, and Commentary by Richard Janko. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-957207-0
- Philodemus, On Property Management. (2013), Voula Tsouna. SBL. ISBN 1-58983-667-7
- Philodemus, On Rhetoric Books 1 and 2: Translation and Exegetical Essays. (2005). Clive Chandler (editor). Routledge. ISBN 0-415-97611-1
- David Sider, (1997), The Epigrams of Philodemos. Introduction, Text, and Commentary. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-509982-6
Source link:
Bryan I noticed you posted some fragments on your profile Timeline, and so I wanted to repost them here, and also bring up the questions: What are good sources of Philodemus fragments - translators, books, websites? Recommendations or thoughts on determining accuracy of sources?
Here are the two that Bryan quoted:
(Philodemus - On the Stable Conduct of the Gods - P.Herc. 157 col. 7) "complete happiness is achieved when one keeps their burdens under control and can manage their life in a beneficial way for themselves, and thus attains everything they wish for -- because they harbor no desires or intentions that conflict with nature."
(P.Herc. 152 fr. 9) "External needs contribute to the community's role in fostering interactions, as it is impossible to maintain a sense of community without some level of engagement. This is particularly relevant for us, those who rely on the essential aspects of friendship, with the implication that our lives heavily depend on this communal support."
Tonight Vatican Sayings 67 & 68!
Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).
Tonight's Agenda:
VS67. A free life cannot acquire many possessions, because this is not easy to do without servility to mobs or monarchs, yet it possesses all things in unfailing abundance; and if by chance it obtains many possessions, it is easy to distribute them so as to win the gratitude of neighbors.
VS68. Nothing is sufficient for him to whom what is sufficient seems too little.
As for the nature of love (ἔρως), it's not even right to speak of it as a virtue, given that the act of falling in love is found to be extremely harmful and chaotic. Love, after all, borders on madness."
ἔρως = sexual love
And this sounds like it is describing extreme infatuation.
This article has some good tips (and this is the source which I referenced during tonight's First Monday Zoom):
How to Be a Good Friend
To keep your relationships strong and healthy, be a good friend. Healthy friendships are reciprocal, with plenty of give-and-take. “Be as good to your friends as you want them to be to you,” Cazeau says.
Try these tips to nurture your friendship:
Be a safe space. Give your friend the freedom to express themselves. “Being a safe space where your friend can share and vent without any judgment can be vital to their mental health,” Cazeau says. Try not to jump in with solutions to their problems. Your friend may simply want to talk about something that’s on their mind.
Be present. Make the time you spend together count. Put away your cell phone. Avoid distractions. Ask questions, and be an active listener. Engage in the conversation. Use good eye contact.
Be kind. Small acts of kindness add up. Tell your friend how much they mean to you, Cazeau says. Celebrate their wins. Remember their birthday with a card or a gift. Try to avoid criticism and negativity, which can pull a friendship down.
Open up. Sharing feelings and experiences brings friends closer by creating intimacy. Show your friend that you trust them by talking freely about what you think and how you feel. This can make your connection deeper.
Be reliable. When your friend knows that they can count on you, it keeps your relationship strong. If you flake out on plans or don’t keep their secrets, it will suffer. Show up on time when you have plans. Do what you say you’ll do. And keep confidential information to yourself.
Curb competitive feelings. “Try not to compare yourself to your friends,” McCrink advises. “This can be really tough, but it’s poisonous to friendships.”
In her 20s, when many of McCrink’s friends got married, she started to feel uncomfortable about being single. “It consumed me to the point where I rushed into a marriage that wasn’t right for me,” she says.
Instead of making comparisons, be your friend’s cheerleader. “Embrace where you are in your own journey and lift your friends up to keep the relationships strong,” McCrink says.
Here is a link to an interview - A CONVERSATION WITH DAVID SEDLEY (he published "Lucretius and the Transformation of Greek Wisdom" in 1998)
https://lexicon.cnr.it/ojs/index.php/LP/article/download/517/401/3540
This is exciting!!!
There was one submission that stood out clearly from the rest. Working independently, each member of our team of papyrologists recovered more text from this submission than any other. Remarkably, the entry achieved the criteria we set when announcing the Vesuvius Challenge in March: 4 passages of 140 characters each, with at least 85% of characters recoverable. This was not a given: most of us on the organizing team assigned a less than 30% probability of success when we announced these criteria! And in addition, the submission includes another 11 (!) columns of text — more than 2000 characters total.
Lowri834 thanks for the RSVP, and looking forward to seeing you there
For tomorrow night's discussion topic:
"Romantic Love and Friendship in Epicurean Philosophy"
I will bring up some fun questions to spur on the discussion.
This meeting is especially a great place for newer members to meet-and-great others who are studying the philosophy of Epicurus. Let us know if you are interested by posting here (or by private message).
Looking forward to seeing you there!
We also have Philodemus On Home Economics (column 20, Tsouna translation):
"we must refer to the preconception that we possess about 'a good moneymaker,' ask in whom the content of that preconception is substantiated and in what manner that person makes money, and ascribe the predicate 'good moneymaker' [to whoever it may be in whom] those feature are attested"
In Diogenes Laertus Book X, it says of Epicurus:
"The terms he used for things were the ordinary terms, and Aristophanes the grammarian credits him with a very characteristic style. He was so lucid a writer that in the work On Rhetoric he makes clearness the sole requisite."
Now if we look at what Philodemus wrote in the example here, as refering to the preconception, then we have this formula:
1. word or phrase
2. a very specific person (or possibly also a very specific event or specific object)
3. specific actions (exact unfolding details)
So then rather than using words (or phrases) abstractly, we tie them down to clear, specific, and exact instances.
Now...if we were to go back to the beginning of this entire thread and every person goes back and explains each and every abstract word with this much clearer way of speaking...then we might have something much more beneficial. In my opinion we would all be much better off if when posting with more clarity and exactness (less abstraction...myself included).
And I am very grateful to Bryan an for finding that helpful quote by Philodemus.
So this goes for words such as "religion", "philosophy", and in a recent post the word "sacrifice"...and any other vague words here.
Let me try with the word "philosophy" (with the formula based on Philodemus)
1. philosophy
2. David Sedley
--- and the story of the Garden within "A Few Days in Athens"
3. interpretation of the writings of Epicurus (what David Sedley does)
---- a group of people who come together to study what Epicurus had to say (in "A Few Days in Athens" ...how they gathered in a school)
So this hopefully illustrates more clearly what I mean by philosophy. And the formula is based on past things (not future things).
If those who used words such as "religion" or any other words that may need clarifying, may like to try this out, to bring more clarity. (Possibly every person would have a slightly different way of rendering clarity for a particular word?)
****
Edit: I see I wasn't as clear and exact as Philodemus recommends, since I wasn't specific enough about what David Sedley does (which clarifies the word philosophy) and also didn't include enough details from "A Few Days in Athens).
In De Rerum Natura Book 4 Lucretius writes on the passion of love (Lucr. 4.1058)
I found this interesting excerpt from a JSTOR article on Lucretius:
Yet another factor in Lucretius' treatment of love is concerned in a different way with the concept of romantic love. What Lucretius is attacking is a romantic and obsessive attitude to love which may have existed in life, then and now, and which we certainly find reflected and amplified in literature. In a sense the models of fiction are always more powerful than life, so that Lucretius was right to consider them a special danger; Plato would have agreed with him. Literary models of obsessive love have ranged from Phaedra to Proust's Swann. A particular model that may be useful here is the poet-lover in Catullus' love poems. Since Catullus was contemporary with Lucretius, it is reasonable to assume that he represents attitudes with which Lucretius was familiar. Lucretius' satire on
love gains even more point if it is read as a commentary on the way of life of the Catullan lover. Some critics have claimed that Lucretius is criticizing Catullus' own words and the way of life of his circle of friends; we may at least take the Catullan lover as an example of the type Lucretius has in mind, a type that existed in Latin literature, especially in the sub-category exclusus amator, as early as Plautus and Terence.2' This type
exemplifies a rival kind of withdrawal from everyday Roman life and perhaps even an insidious popularized form of Epicureanism which Lucretius may well have been anxious to combat.
"Lucretius and Love" - Aya Betensky
The Classical World, Vol. 73, No. 5 (Feb., 1980), pp. 291-299 (9 pages)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4349198
It was probably in Rome that Catullus fell deeply in love with the "Lesbia" of his poems, who is usually identified with Clodia Metelli, a sophisticated woman from the aristocratic house of patrician family Claudii Pulchri, sister of the infamous Publius Clodius Pulcher, and wife to proconsul Quintus Caecilius Metellus Celer. In his poems Catullus describes several stages of their relationship: initial euphoria, doubts, separation, and his wrenching feelings of loss. Clodia had several other partners; "From the poems one can adduce no fewer than five lovers in addition to Catullus: Egnatius (poem 37), Gellius (poem 91), Quintius (poem 82), Rufus (poem 77), and Lesbius (poem 79)."
Regarding marriage and adultery in ancient Rome I also read on Wikipedia:
During the Republican era, marriage, divorce and adultery were matters dealt with by the families concerned. Falling marriage and birth rates in the Later Republic and early Empire led to state intervention. Adultery was made a crime, for which citizen-women could be punished by divorce, fines and demotion in social status; men's sexual activity was adultery only if committed with a married citizen-woman. Families were also offered financial incentives to have as many children as possible. Both interventions had minimal effect.
And so we need to take into consideration the historical context of the time in which Lucretius wrote De Rerum Natura.
Happy Birthday Jo.
