Posts by Kalosyni

In this video, you can see the kalamatianos for a brief segment starting at 2:40 ...(word of caution that the music is a bit somber).

I have some evidence that complicates things, and points to a possiblity that Philodemus held different views than Epicurus did.

I found this on Wikipedia, which seems to indicate that Epicurus held similar views on the Gods to Theodorus.

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Theodorus was attacked for atheism. "He did away with all opinions respecting the Gods," says Laërtius,^[17] but some critics doubt whether he was absolutely an atheist, or simply denied the existence of the deities of popular belief. The charge of atheism is sustained by the popular designation of Atheus, by the authority of Cicero,^[18] Laërtius,^[2] Pseudo-Plutarch,^[19] Sextus Empiricus,^[20] and some Christian writers; while some others (e.g. Clement of Alexandria)^[21] speak of him as only rejecting the popular theology.

Theodorus wrote a book called On the Gods (Περὶ Θεῶν). Laërtius had seen it, and said that it was not to be dismissed,^[17] adding that it was said to have been the source of many of the statements or arguments of Epicurus.

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Quote from Eikadistes

rituals (civic festivals such as the City Dionysia and Anthesteria as well as personal cults to deceased family members and close friends)

And also this too, would love to have the texts that refer to this.

Quote from Eikadistes

practices like prayer (heavily encouraged by Epicurus and Philodemos

Eikadistes If you happen to have the specific text that refers to prayer practices, for both Epicurus and for Philodemus, can you post here? ...would love to read those

Quote from Kalosyni

We do not have evidence of any of the above in ancient Epicureans...

Except now thinking, the only evidence that I can think of is the opening of De Rerum Natura which has an invocation to Venus, in which one could consider that ancient Epicureans during the Roman times participated in a kind of prayer, to an existing religion of the ancient time - and a worship of Venus. I found this:

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But the most important cause of the identification was the reception into Rome of the famous cult of Venus Erycina—i.e., of Aphrodite of Eryx (Erice) in Sicily—this cult itself resulting from the identification of an Oriental mother-goddess with the Greek deity. This reception took place during and shortly after the Second Punic War. A temple was dedicated to Venus Erycina on the Capitol in 215 bce and a second outside the Colline gate in 181 bce. The latter developed in a way reminiscent of the temple at Eryx with its harlots, becoming the place of worship of Roman courtesans, hence the title of dies meretricum (“prostitutes’ day”) attached to April 23, the day of its foundation.

The importance of the worship of Venus-Aphrodite was increased by the political ambitions of the gens Iulia, the clan of Julius Caesar and, by adoption, of Augustus. They claimed descent from Iulus, the son of Aeneas; Aeneas was the alleged founder of the temple of Eryx and, in some legends, of the city of Rome also. From the time of Homer onward, he was made the son of Aphrodite, so that his descent gave the Iulii divine origin. Others than the Iulii sought to connect themselves with a deity grown so popular and important, notably Gnaeus Pompeius, the triumvir. He dedicated a temple to Venus as Victrix (“Bringer of Victory”) in 55 bce. Julius Caesar’s own temple (46 bce), however, was dedicated to Venus Genetrix, and as Genetrix (“Begetting Mother”) she was best known until the death of Nero in 68 ce. Despite the extinction of the Julio-Claudian line, she remained popular, even with the emperors; Hadrian completed a temple of Venus at Rome in 135 ce.

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I haven't re-read this thread (and there has been a lot discussed here already)...but this seems to be the right place to post...on my mind this morning: "What makes something a religion?" I put that question into Google and the AI came back with this:

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AI Overview

Something becomes a religion when it involves a unified system of beliefs and practices relating to the sacred, often including rituals, moral codes, and a sense of community, as defined by sociologist Émile Durkheim.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• Beliefs and Practices:

  Religions typically involve a set of beliefs about the nature of reality, the divine, and the afterlife, along with practices like prayer, rituals, and ceremonies.

• Sacred Things:

  Durkheim's definition emphasizes the concept of "sacred things," which are objects, places, or ideas that are set apart and treated with reverence and respect.

• Moral Codes:

  Many religions also include a system of ethics or moral guidelines that dictate how individuals should behave and interact with others.

• Community:

  Religion often fosters a sense of community among believers, who share common beliefs and practices.

• Worship:

  While not always a defining feature, many religions involve the worship of a deity or deities.

• Examples:

  Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism are all examples of religions that share these characteristics.

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As for my own definition of what I would consider a religion -- I would say that all religions are defined by people who come together in-person to do "worship" together, with multiple rituals and ceremonies that are considered holy/sacred/consecrated in that they are done because they "seek to transcend the earthly realm". Religion is always seeking to connect with something beyond physical matter and to connect with a world existing or transcending beyond death.

We do not have evidence of any of the above in ancient Epicureans, and the extant texts of Epicurus do not provide any guidance for this. Since Epicurean philosophy holds that the soul dies with the body, then there is no after-life. Also, physical things exist because of physical causes - there are no supernatural forces in the world. Given these concepts, I think it would be difficult to consider or turn Epicurean philosophy into a religion.

These are just my current thoughts, processing some ideas.

Happy Birthday sowhataustin !

An interesting article: "Ancient Greek and Roman statues often smelled like roses, a new study says":

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Cecilie Brøns, a senior researcher and curator of the Glyptoteket museum's collection of ancient Greek and Roman art in Copenhagen, Denmark, says ancient texts provide evidence that statues were often scented with perfumes, oils and waxes.

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/25/nx-s1-5332367/ancient-greece-rome-statues-smell-study-research

The following topics will be presented in the "Introduction to Epicurean Philosophy" 7-Week Self-paced Course:

Week 1: Epicurus, the Garden, and the Extant Texts - The biography of Epicurus, the history and location of the school of Epicurus, and an overview of the extant texts.

Week 2: The Nature of Things and How We Can Have Knowledge of Them - A brief overview of Epicurean physics and canonics, as the basis of Epicurean philosophy.

Week 3: The Non-involvement of God(s), No Afterlife, & the Nature of the Soul and Death - An overview of the Epicurean beliefs about the nature of the gods, the soul, and death, as well as philosophical exercises to become accustomed to seeing that the fear of death and dying is unnecessary.

Week 4: Pleasure and Eudaemonia - Pleasure is the starting point of the motivation that nature gave to humans and every animal at birth. Pleasure is the goal to which we aim, but not every pleasure is chosen. By coming to understand the full nature of both pleasure and pain, we can learn to make choices and avoidances which lead to our long-term eudaemonia.

Week 5: The Role of Virtue Which Leads to Pleasure - We choose our actions wisely because of the goal of pleasure, and not because we are holding to abstract ideas of "right and wrong", or duty toward religion or cultural norms. Virtue is chosen according to Epicurean principles, and as a means for the health and happiness of the body and soul. This week will also cover the Epicurean understanding of justice.

Week 6: Free Will and Self-Suffiency - There is no other world more important than this world, and we need to determine what pleasures are worth the pain. We have free will, and yet we must attend to our livelihood and household while continuing to practice the philosophy.

Week 7: Friendship and the Twentieth - this final week will cover friendship as a great good, and the importance of maintaining the Epicurean community. The Letter to Menoeceus says: "So practice these and similar things day and night, by yourself and with a like-minded friend, and you will never be disturbed whether waking or sleeping, and you will live as a god among men: for a man who lives in the midst of immortal goods is unlike a merely mortal being."

*********

Go to Week 1

Additional material for Section 1.2:

Here is an very good overview of the Principal Doctrines.

The following is copied here from an earlier post created by forum member Don.

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Sept. 23, 2023 - posted by Don

In looking at the PDs for some ideas, I took a clue from Cyril Bailey's summary of the PDs. He categorized them as:

1-4: The tetrapharmakos, the four-fold fundamental principles necessary for a tranquil life

5: The relation of pleasure to virtue

6, 7: Protection from external disturbances

8-10: The selection of pleasures

11-13: The ethical value of physical science

14-21: The wise man’s life in relation to nature, his fellow men, and to true pleasure (can be sub-divided)

22-26: The tests and standards of moral (i.e., truly pleasant) action

27, 28: Friendship

29, 30: The classification of desires

31-38: Justice and injustice

39, 40: The wise man’s life in the Epicurean community

Now there are many things about which I don't agree with Bailey, but this list is helpful as a starting point.

PD01 and PD02 are the ubiquitous correct understanding of the gods and death.

PD05 gives the standard formula about living pleasurably entails living virtuously/ethically, and vice versa.

PD08 to PD10 talks about making the correct choices and rejections, the core of Epicurean day to day (moment to moment) practice. The practice seems to me to be brought up again in PD20 through PD26. Those are sections I need to investigate in my unending quest to re-compose Principle Doctrines as a text. PD29 (necessary, unnecessary desires, etc.) and PD30 are an important "how to do it" text as well.

PD11 to PD13 talk about the necessity of understanding "how things work" when it comes to allaying fears and superstitions about "astronomical phenomena and death and suffering," "myths," and "what is above and below the earth and in general about the infinite unknown." This conveys the importance of studying natural science and to understand how the physical, material universe works.

PD14 and PD15 talks about the fact that unlimited wealth isn't necessary to pursue a pleasurable life. Sufficient wealth is "limited and easy to acquire."

PD17 is a good reminder: "One who acts aright (δίκαιος) is utterly steady and serene (ἀταρακτότατος), whereas one who goes astray is full of trouble and confusion."

PD27 is our friendship one!

The Justice PDs are important from an ethical standpoint in that they say how people should treat each other, especially PD31 "Natural justice is a covenant for mutual benefit, to not harm one another or be harmed."

PD39 and 40 are not straightforward when trying to translate, but are potentially helpful.

The Philosophy of Epicurus: A Self-paced 7-week Course (work-in-progress)

• Overview: Join us for a self-paced seven week study course on the philosophy of Epicurus. This program will introduce you to the basics of the classical Epicurean philosophy and provide opportunities for contemplation and guidance for practical applications of the philosophy to modern life. Epicurus presents a worldview which answers existential questions such as: What is the nature of the world? What is the nature of the soul? How do we make choices in our lives when a creator god is not involved in the world?

  The philosophy of Epicurus shows how pleasure is the guide of life and gives guidance for living the most complete life possible. By understanding the limits of both pleasure and pain, and how to overcome the fear of death, the mind becomes clear and open to living fully. Through the understanding of what is natural and necessary, what is natural and but not necessarily needed, and what is merely empty opinion, the proper prudence to make wise choices and avoidances result in more pleasure and less pain. The philosophy of Epicurus leads us to live the best life - a healthy mind in a health body - surrounded by friends and supported by sufficiency.

Quote from Cassius

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

Hello Erik I see that you have been on the forum for some time, but have not yet introduced yourself. Please, if you don't mind, as your introduction let us know how your studies are going, or if you have any questions...also what initially prompted your interest in Epicureanism? Thank you!

Quote from Cleveland Okie

Thank you for posting this, I did notice it was the 20th. Are there still video get togethers on the 20th?

Hi Cleveland Okie !

You'll find all the current info about the 20th Gatherings, and also our other meetings: First Monday and Wednesday Night Usener Study Group (and in the sub-form Zoom Meetings).

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The mysterious force called Dark Energy, which drives the expansion of the Universe, might be changing in a way that challenges our current understanding of time and space, scientists have found.

Some of them believe that they may be on the verge of one of the biggest discoveries in astronomy for a generation - one that could force a fundamental rethink.

This early-stage finding is at odds with the current theory which was developed in part by Albert Einstein.

More data is needed to confirm these results, but even some of the most cautious and respected researchers involved in the study, such as Prof Ofer Lahav, from University College London, are being swept up by the mounting evidence.

"It is a dramatic moment," he told BBC News.

"We may be witnessing a paradigm shift in our understanding of the Universe."

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Dark Energy experiment shakes Einstein's theory of Universe

New research could force a fundamental rethink of the nature of space and time.

www.bbc.com

I see that today is International Happiness Day! Yay!!!

https://www.npr.org/sections/goats-and-soda/2025/03/20/g-s1-54523/international-happiness-day-photos-smile

Quote from Godfrey

Looking at it in this way, it becomes a three step process: 1) weighing, 2) selecting or rejecting, and 3) doing. Further, as I'm thinking of it currently, 3) isn't "doing or not doing", it's actually doing one thing or doing another thing. Rejecting eating the 9am bowl of ice cream doesn't result in doing nothing but in moving on to another endeavor, be it active or passive. So in this way selecting isn't either/or, it's actually choice and avoidance. In selecting one thing, you reject another, and vice versa. This relates to the idea that there's no neutral state: just as we're always experiencing either pleasure or pain, we're never doing nothing unless we're dead. At any moment, we've chosen to do one thing and are avoiding myriad other things.

Quote from Godfrey

VS71. Ask this question of every desire: what will happen to me if the object of desire is achieved, and what if not?

Quote from Julia

Only when I ask "Name the satisfaction/relief this will bring" am I forced to actually think about the consequences, and because they're positively framed, it also motivates me to follow through:

This is going beyond the scope of what we have available from the extant texts of Epicurus.

You might look onto "Compassionate Communication" (NVC) by Marshall Rosenberg:

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In Nonviolent Communication (NVC), Marshall Rosenberg posits that all human actions stem from the attempt to meet needs, and that there are nine major categories of basic human needs, often called "universal human needs": sustenance, safety, love, understanding/empathy, creativity, recreation, sense of belonging, autonomy, and meaning.

Here's a more detailed breakdown of these needs:

• Sustenance:

  This encompasses the basic needs for survival, including food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities.

  
  

• Safety:

  This includes protection from harm, both physical and emotional, as well as security and stability.

  
  

• Love:

  This refers to the need for connection, belonging, and affection, not just romantic love, but also friendship, family, and community.

  
  

• Understanding/Empathy:

  This is the need to be heard, understood, and validated, both by ourselves and by others.

  
  

• Creativity:

  This encompasses the need for self-expression, innovation, and the ability to create and contribute.

  
  

• Recreation:

  This includes the need for rest, relaxation, play, and enjoyment.

  
  

• Sense of Belonging:

  This is the need to feel connected to others and to be part of a community or group.

  
  

• Autonomy:

  This refers to the need for independence, self-determination, and the freedom to make choices.

  
  

• Meaning:

  This encompasses the need for purpose, significance, and a sense of contribution to something larger than oneself.

  
  

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For the last category "meaning", I would reframe it as "making sense of life/my life" (to avoid going into a religious framing of the concept of purpose).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolen…20and%20meaning.

The communication aspect of NVC also includes internal habits of thinking.

Quote from Julia

I lie to myself, and pretend that eating a box of ice cream was my Choice, even though it's 9am, I'm not hungry, and know full well I'll only regret it before I'm even half done.

In this example, you eating the ice cream is "doing" and so by default that is a "choice" that you made. Instead of labeling it "lying", try out the label of "justifying" (which is less harsh). There is a reason behind the action - possibly the desire for "entertainment" (novelty) or a desire to remove anxiety (through distraction). Also consider that modern foods are created with a very strong "yummy" factor, so if you know you have "trigger" foods (foods which when you start eating you are unable to stop) then make sure that you do not buy them or bring them into to the house. Instead go out to a ice cream parlor and only buy a single scoop (once a month, or less, which makes it more special and more enjoyable). Substitute healthy foods for snacking (carrot sticks are great, etc).

Quote from Julia

To rephrase it all: "When there is no anticipated satisfaction nor an anticipated relief, which I could specifically name, I cannot possibly have completed the Choice or Avoidance operation in my mind yet."

Would you agree that this rephrased statement is correct?

(Of course, after having Chosen / decided to Avoid something, I also need to follow through; that's not what I am wondering about, though. I'm specifically looking at what happens beforehand.)

I'm feeling something subtle here...perhaps to name it as "an urge to control everything". And I think that this attitude can become a problem. There are a lot of things that happen just by chance, but we make do and go with the flow. But it is very good to focus on the important things when making choices, such as where to go to college, what to major in, whether to get into a relationship for the purpose of marriage or stay single, or whether or not to have children. But there are a lot of small things that often don't matter, in my opinion (such as whether or not, or when, to clean the bathroom mirror, and it depends on each individual as to what brings pleasure and pain).

So I don't think it is important to feel or notice whether or not you've "completed the choice and avoidance operation" (as you stated above), because many things we do are based on habits that are automatic. If we do feel some pain then we should look to see what were doing wrong and then work on making changes to our habits.