Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

I have anticipated you Fortune and I have entrenched myself against all your secret attacks. I have not and will not give myself up as captive to you or to any other circumstance. When it is time for me to go, I will spit contempt upon those who vainly cling to life, and I will leave life crying aloud in glorious triumph that I have lived well.

This is a quote by Metrodorus. I also want to say that the "spitting contempt" part just doesn't make sense from an Epicurean standpoint - at least in my mind. The Epicurean would be too busy either: enjoying a last taste of something pleasurable, or busy remembering an event that was one of the best moments of life.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Daniel188

Eventually, however, my interest returned and I began comparing Stoic and Epicurean physics, and I've come to the conclusion that Epicureanism probably better represents what nature is.

Just asking for clarity sake...were you referring to the Epicurean natural physics or referring to Epicurean ethics based on nature/what is natural?

Happy Birthday sanantoniogarden!

In the book "Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life" there is the usage of the word "corrosive" for the "unnatural/unnecessary" category of desires. We have likely discussed this before, but it is worth bringing up again.

I would recommend against using the word "corrosive" for several reasons:

1) It gives a situation a kind of static state that sounds difficult to remedy (once something is corroded it is difficult to restore it back to its original nature), where as the truth is that the human mind can shift rather quickly out of the "unnatural/unnecessary" when realizing the truth of something.

2) It sounds overly "dramatic" (envisioning leaking battery acid that corrodes metal). And it attributes an aweful lot of power to desires, making them sound dangerous or "evil" (it almost has a "Christian puritanical" sound to it). But if you dig down to see what is going on then you will see that there are basic needs hiding deep below the surface (below the "unnatural" desire), but it is actually the strategy for meeting those needs isn't the best strategy. (Needs for safety, security, reassurance, or knowledge could be the deeper needs).

3) It doesn't accurately describe the biggest problem for things that are "unnatural" -- the main problem is that they are "empty" of happiness and pleasure (and that they cause more pain than pleasure).

----I think most people here on the forum would understand that "natural" is something that nature gives to animals or occurs naturally for animals. Where as, "unnatural" is something which is only an opinion with no basis in nature. Once we are clear about what these categories are, then we can decide how best to label them.

My own current take on the three categories of desires:

1) natural and necessary for well-being

2) nice to have but optional

3) empty, painful, or leading to unwanted consequences

Here is an article that takes a different view from the one that I posted above, and which makes good points also:

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/06/nx-s1-5276331/you-have-more-control-over-your-emotions-than-you-think

Welcome to the forum AUtC

You might like to check out these videos:

Quote from Kalosyni

De Rerum Natura, book 2, excerpt:

Will add soon [sunshine, birds-song in forests]

As I was listening to an audio recording of De Rerum Natura last week when sick in bed, this section cheered me up:

De Rerum Natura, Book 2, section 142 (Humphries translation):

When dawn bathes earth with morning light, and birds,

All kinds of them, flying through pathless woods,

Fill all the delicate air with liquid song,

How suddenly at such a time the sun

Clothes everything with light! This we can see,

And so can all men, plain before the eyes.

But the sun's warmth and that calm light come on

Not through an empty void; their course is set

More slowly, as if they parted waves of air

The way a swimmer does. Not one by one

Do the tiny particles of heat proceed,

But rather en masse,...

Starting this thread for textual excerpts that express upbeat, optimistic, and/or joyful feelings...

Diogenes Laertius, book 10, excerpt:

"Also that in his letters he wrote to Leontion, "O Lord Apollo, my dear little Leontion, with what tumultuous applause we were inspired as we read your letter." Then again to Themista, the wife of Leonteus : "I am quite ready, if you do not come to see me, to spin thrice on my own axis and be propelled to any place that you, including Themista, agree upon" ; and to the beautiful Pythocles he writes : "I will sit down and await thy divine advent, my heart's desire."....It is observed too that in his treatise On the Ethical End he writes in these terms : "I know not how to conceive the good, apart from the pleasures of taste, sexual pleasures, the pleasures of sound and the pleasures of beautiful form."

De Rerum Natura, book 2, excerpt:

Will add soon [sunshine, birds-song in forests]

...More to be added soon

Feel free to post any other upbeat, optimistic, and joyful Epicurean text excerpts.

VS 16: "No one who sees what is bad chooses it willingly; instead he is lured into seeing it as good compared to what is even worse, and thus he is trapped."

Some thoughts on this...

Reasoning further on this to get a bigger picture on this: the calculation with regard to time is needed: short term outcomes, medium term outcomes, and long term outcomes. And also missing is not having properly reasoned through all possible outcomes and the likelihood of those outcomes coming to pass.

Also, this is true if one is willing to gamble that something unwanted won't happen as a consequence...but then over time not knowing if bad consequences will result is greatly disturbing/troubling and also tends to snowball into even more gambling with one's future.

A simple example: choosing to lie instead of telling the truth, and then forever having to lie to cover up the first lie...ends up being exhausting and then eventually either the truth is found out or the person forgets to keep lying to cover up their first lie...which results in further problems (others no longer trust that person)...etc.

Quote from Matteng

the Epicureans are the one who doesn´t accept Pain and try to avoid it.
Epicureans say Stoics doesn´t accept or want avoid (Painful/harmful) Emotions.

Epicureans seek pleasure, but at times they endure pain when it prevents a greater pain or leads to the pleasures that come with necessary things like food/shelter/health of the body and happiness of the soul -- This can be found in the Letter to Menoeceus.

I'm guessing that Stoics think that they need to be indifferent toward pleasures because they don't believe that there are certain pleasures which are easy to get, and also they don't trust that pleasure can lead to good results. And it seems that they may see pleasures as a distraction from being perfectly courageous (etc.) and a distraction from having the appearances in front of others of being virtuous. (Stoics want esteem in the eyes of others, but this won't necessarily lead to a happy life).

Emotions are a motivator for desiring, but if someone doesn't know how to prudently pursue pleasure, then they may think that they need to avoid feeling desire (and any emotions that lead to desire).

Here is a modern psychology article that is a must-read for anyone interested in the role of feelings and emotions in well-being:

The Key Skill We Rarely Learn: How to Feel Your Feelings

I feel my feelings! Probably not. But with courage and practice, we can cultivate the skill to deeply connect to ourselves and our values, opening up a world…

www.psychologytoday.com

I just verified with Cassius that the First Monday Meet and Greet Zoom for tonight is officially canceled. We hold the meeting on an as-needed basis for new members. We will set up another as soon as we have the need, so anyone with interest or questions regarding attendance please message Cassius or myself.

*****

(btw...I am feeling mostly better today, but not quite 100 percent yet).

Quote from Matteng

When I understood Philodemus right, I think the Epicurean view would only match with the Stoic view when the Emotion

1) has harmful consequences ( pleasure then is not choiceworthy for example )
2) is irrational, based on empty believe
3) is based on unnecessary desire

In short when the Emotions lead to more pain than pleasure.

Thank you Matteng for pointing this out.

Perhaps there is a way to fine-tune the differences, however, and especially because both feelings and emotions are important for making sense of the world, and so we need them as valid input for making good choices. Feelings and emotions have important input and shouldn't just be brushed aside in a "stoic" fashion. If something is actually "irrational" you would want to take the time to fully understand why, and that means you need to be able to tolerate the discomfort of seeing and understanding the big picture.

I just found this article: "ΓΕΝΕΣΙΑ. A Forgotten Festival of the Dead" - about Genesia:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/636925

On a less serious note...

Maybe we should proclaim October 31st as "Dress up like an ancient Greek or Roman" day!

From Wikipedia:

Quote

Care of the dead and the loving duty toward one's ancestors (pietas) were fundamental aspects of ancient Roman culture.^[52] A clear manifestation of this is Roman Republican era portrait busts which may have originated in the practice of making death masks of ancestors which were displayed in the home and during funerary rites and on the anniversary of the ancestor's death.

And further down:

Quote

Ancient Rome

edit

Detail from an early second-century Roman sarcophagus depicting the death of Meleager

See also: Roman funerals and burial

The Romans, like many Mediterranean societies, regarded the bodies of the dead as polluting.^[66] During Rome's Classical period, the body was most often cremated, and the ashes placed in a tomb outside the city walls. Much of the month of February was devoted to purifications, propitiation, and veneration of the dead, especially at the nine-day festival of the Parentalia during which a family honored its ancestors. The family visited the cemetery and shared cake and wine, both in the form of offerings to the dead and as a meal among themselves. The Parentalia drew to a close on February 21 with the more somber Feralia, a public festival of sacrifices and offerings to the Manes, the potentially malevolent spirits of the dead who required propitiation.^[67] One of the most common inscriptional phrases on Latin epitaphs is Dis Manibus, abbreviated D.M, "for the Manes gods", which appears even on some Christian tombstones. The Caristia on February 22 was a celebration of the family line as it continued into the present.^[68]

A noble Roman family displayed ancestral images (imagines) in the tablinum of their home (domus). Some sources indicate these portraits were busts, while others suggest that funeral masks were also displayed. The masks, probably modeled of wax from the face of the deceased, were part of the funeral procession when an elite Roman died. Professional mourners wore the masks and regalia of the dead person's ancestors as the body was carried from the home, through the streets, and to its final resting place.^[69]

You can read about various cultures and veneration of the dead at this wikipedia entry. (It doesn't say anything about ancient Greece).

Veneration of the dead - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My guess is that Epicurus would participated only because it was so widely practiced and seemed necessary to those who were not Epicureans.

Since we don't have an American annual ritual of ancestor veneration, then I think it would feel awkwar to try to start doing that, especially if as Epicureans we don't believe that a spirit survives death.

Thank you wbernys for your RSVP! We will send out the link the day before the meeting by private conversation. Looking forward to meeting you!

Welcome to the forum AthenianGarden

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Please RSVP either here if you are Level 02, or RSVP in your Welcome Thread if you are Level 01.

I am currently thinking about how every person both understands (comprehends) and implements, Epicurean philosophy uniquely. Some people put most of their focus onto the ethics, and others really prefer contemplating "the nature of things".

We each understand the telos uniquely and we each have our own reasons for why we continue to implement the philosophy in our own lives. Our choices and avoidances are also unique to our given situations.

I've been thinking about why that is, and have been thinking about how individual temperaments and individual formative childhood experiences influence how we make sense of Epicurean philosophy, and the kinds of evaluations we each make regarding pleasure, pain, and formulation of guessing future outcomes and consequences when we make choices.

I made this chart as a way to think about how we individually move through choices. Of course this uses a rather primitive understanding of temperament (based on the four humors). In modern times we have the Myers-Briggs personality type indicator.

So here on the forum, the different ways of interpreting the Epicurean philosophy arise out of individual differences in temperaments.

With an in-person group we would have quite a task of determining what activities to do as a group, and would likely have to split up into smaller groups... for example: those that are seeking quiet and therapeutic aspects, and those that are seeking ambitious goals of spreading the words of Epicurus.