Posts by Don

Quote from Pacatus

But, I would read that as a caution that needs to be seen through the lens of (contextualized by) PD10:

Pacatusisn't the only one to bring up PD10 et al, but I'm just using his quote as a jumping off point.

I continue to advocate for seeing PD10, 11, and 12 as one body and not discrete "principal doctrines"(Saint-Andre translation, emphasis, bracketed additions, and re-arrangement mine)...

• ONE: IF the things that produce the delights of those who are decadent washed away the mind's fears about astronomical phenomena and death and suffering, and
• IF furthermore [the delights of those who are decadent] taught us the limits of our pains and desires,
• THEN we would have no complaints against them, since they would be filled with every joy and would contain not a single pain or distress (and that's what is bad).
• [Additionally] IF our suspicions about astronomical phenomena and about death were nothing to us and troubled us not at all, and
• IF this were also the case regarding our ignorance about the limits of our pains (of either mind or body) and desires,
• THEN we would have no need for studying what is natural.
• It is impossible for someone who is completely ignorant about nature to wash away his fears about the most important matters if he retains some suspicions about the myths. So it is impossible to experience undiluted enjoyment without studying what is natural.

LOTS of "if... then"'s in those statements. I know Cassius and I have had this discussion ad nauseum, but I'll give him this (if I understand his position):

IF the *pleasures* (NOT desires!) of the ἄσωτος (asotos: one having no hope of safety, one in a desperate case, one who is lost, a profligate/prodigal - same word used in reference to the Prodigal Son in the Bible) washed away fears, then there would be no cause to blame, censure, find fault: μεμψαίμεθα. Where we differ (I believe) is that, to me, that is merely hypothetical and not born out in reality. That's *why* we have cause to blame, censure, find fault with the prodigal not limiting the pleasures that they decide to experience. There are natural limits for a reason, one we discover by studying nature.

This follows right along with the next section, that IF we had no suspicions (derived from same word in the 2nd line of the Tetrapharmakos about death!) about death and were not ignorant of the limits of pains and desires, THEN we wouldn't have to study nature.

BUT we DO have to study nature and, to me, it then follows that we DO, in fact, have reason to find fault with the pleasures of the prodigal.

GnothiSeauton Thanks for the kind words.

If you poke around the forum or stick around a while (hope you do), you'll see me jump on the "but what does the original text say!" soapbox fairly often

That's not quite the Buddhist perspective. I think it's important if we're going to argue against their position (and I am more than fine with that, to be clear!), it should be clear what we're arguing against.

The first Noble Truth (NT) is usually translated "Life is suffering" but that's almost as misleading as just saying "pleasure is the good." The word translated suffering is dukkha.

The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

So, a better paraphrase of NT1 is "Life as most everyone lives it is unsatisfactory, filled with misery, pain, unfulfilled desire, etc." It's not wrong, life can be painful. But it tries to catch all things wrong with *how* people live in one word. That sounds familiar to the Epicureans problem with conveying the meaning of pleasure.

Quote from Cassius

Buddhist team isn't satisfied with attacking pleasure, they want to attack life itself in the form of the desire to remain living. So they narrow the definition of desire so as to focus only on the desires that are most intoxicating and in many cases impossible, and that allows them to disparage *all* desire and make arguments that imply that the term "desire" consists only of those desires that frequently lead to disastrous results.

Again, NT2 addresses why life is suffering: thirst, desire, craving. We want things to go a certain way, and when we don't get that, it's painful. The word is tanha. They don't go after "desires that are most intoxicating and in many cases impossible," they go after ALL desires. Anything that we thirst for or desire or crave, if we don't get it, that brings suffering. They say all desire, all craving, results in dukkha. Tanha is analogous in its comprehensive nature to pleasure for Epicureans. NOT philosophically!! Just semantically, tanha does a lot of heavy lifting, like the word hēdonē does for our school.

I'm not going to turn this into a Buddhist apologetic, but I think it's important to get details right when we're arguing against other schools - and we should argue! Just don't want to strawman any of them.

Quote from GnothiSeauton

This is a fabulous podcast and post discussion. It helps put into context what happiness is. Thank you. I'll be playing this podcast for our philosophy group next Thursday.

Given the topic of this episode, you may be interested in my deep dive into the letter:

Epicurus's Letter to Menoikeus - A New Translation with Commentary - Epicureanfriends.com

An in-depth translation and commentary of Epicurus's Letter to Menoikeus.

www.epicureanfriends.com

Quote from Cassius

Never heard of Artemus Ward - thank you - interesting story! Challenging time to have specialized in comedy!

Few people seem to have heard of him, but he was BIG in his day. Also arguably the first stand up comedian. His Ohio connections endear him to me. Always glad to take the opportunity to spread the word.

Quote from Cassius

That's the challenge to articulate, I think, because while the wise man will (almost?) always have more reason for joy than for vacation, we will also sometimes die for a friend.

LOL which is exactly why I skirted the challenge and didn't articulate any definitive response... At this time.

Quote from Cassius

As an example maybe in the end he saw himself more as an "entertainer" than a real "social reformer" or "phllosopher." I haven't read nearly enough of his overall work to have a basis for a firm opinion.

Same here. My intuition tells me he would think of himself as more "social commentator" than reformer.

Fwiw, one of Twain's friends and in part his inspiration for performance was Artemus Ward, the stage name and nom de plume of Charles Farrar Browne:

Charles Farrar Browne - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The two stark choices seems a bit limiting to me:

1. Live free
2. Die

Can I live pleasantly living under a dictator? Is there any room for finding pleasure? If so, don't die. But John Stark that penned "Live free or die, death is not the greatest of evils" also wrote in the same letter “As I was then, I am now — The friend of the equal rights of men, of representative Democracy, of Republicanism, and the Declaration of Independence, the great charter of our National rights — and of course the friend of the indissoluble union and constitution of the States. I am the enemy of all foreign influence, for all foreign influence is the influence of tyranny. This is the only chosen spot for liberty — this is the only Republic on earth.”

So, we have to answer both Epicurus and John Stark.

In Stark's analysis, I am being asked to put my life on the line for a cause? Are there causes worth fighting and likely dying over?

Epicureans appear to have survived under absolute rulers (Macedonians, Persians, Romans), so my thought would be they had a different attitude to "equal rights of men, ...Democracy" etc. BUT we do know Epicureans fought to preserve the Republic of Rome (although that certainly didn't adhere to any sense of equality or Democracy).

My first blush response to Cassius 's question is that living - life itself - is paramount because it is the only way to pursue pleasure. Death is not to be sought (and I'm not even fully convinced that Epicurus allowed suicide, but that's another thread) when the potential for pleasure - even the smallest - is still possible.

It's not an easy question, and there are no simple answers - that's for sure.

I don't really have a dog in this fight and I'm not quite sure why I feel so adamant about defending Mark Twain; but, in any case, I appear to be staking my flag...

Quote from TauPhi

It reveals preference of non-existence over existence.

I don't see that at all. I don't see Twain expressing a preference for non-existence (or annihilation as he wrote it). I would say he certainly doesn't express it like an Epicurean, but I don't see him wanting to die. Or as TauPhi expressed it:

Quote from TauPhi

the only sensible course of action is taking Twain's hundred million years holiday prematurely... Mark Twain had some 75 years of opportunity to resume his holiday if he so truly desired and yet he didn't take it.

Twain simply says " when the opportunity comes" as it will definitely come for all of us. This sentiment of "when the opportunity comes" speaks to me of not railing against the coming of death when it becomes inevitable. By all means, I'll do what's prudent to stay healthy, but being kept alive by any means necessary is the antithesis (in my mind) of going out with a triumph-song on my lips (or at least in my mind).

When Twain writes "I look back upon with a tender longing and with a grateful desire to resume, when the opportunity comes", in my mind this is exactly the kind of sentiment expressed by the more Epicurean way of saying "Death does not concern me. I did not exist before I was born and I won't exist after I die. I had no cares, anxiety, worry, grief, or pain before I was born; I see no reason to suspect that I will have any of those after I die."

While I may be able to understand where some of the trepidation about the quote comes from, I see it as a very (let's say) Epicurean-adjacent sentiment.

My first question is "How do you define someone who is 'living free'?"

Or even "What do you mean by 'free'?"

Do you mean living "free" politically? Should I imagine Mel Gibson's William Wallace yelling "Freedom!"

Do you mean living free from fear and anxiety?

I'm assuming New Hampshirites would mean living free from the rule of a king. So, context is important so we don't impose meaning on top of theirs (for the moment!): 3:8 State Motto. – The words "Live Free or Die," written by General John Stark, July 31, 1809, shall be the official motto of the state. Source. 1945, 152:1, eff. May 10, 1945. So it became their motto in 1945 in the context, no doubt, of World War II.
The General John Stark in question penned what would become the motto as the postcript to a letter:

I find it very interesting that Stark included "death is not the greatest of evils." As we know, death is nothing to us. I'll consider the Epicurean implications of this later. For now, that seems to me a fascinating little context for a deceptively simple motto.

Twain was not above using hyperbole to make a point.

I see the same sentiment as here as well as Non Fui Fui Non Sum Non Caro...

VS47. I have anticipated you, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all your secret attacks. And we will not give ourselves up as captives to you or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for us to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who here vainly cling to it, we will leave life crying aloud in a glorious triumph-song that we have lived well.

Twain's quote tells me there's nothing to fear in death, no care, nothing to be worried about.

Oh, and I'm assuming you've seen this. For those who haven't:

Memento Mori mosaic from excavations in the convent of San Gregorio, Via Appia, Rome, Italy. Now in the National Museum Bath of Diocletian, Rome, Italy. The Greek motto gnōthi sauton (know thyself, nosce te ipsum) (c. 1st century, Wikimedia Commons)

Welcome aboard!

Quote from GnothiSeauton

Edit: I just ordered a hardback copy of Dewitt's “Epicurus and His Philosophy” from Abe Books, the online used book store. Excited to read it as I have several other books I'm currently reading on Epicurus. I found this forum during a web search.

My personal go-to book recommendation these days is Dr. Emily Austin's Living for Pleasure. It is a very conversational, accessible introduction to the philosophy and applying it in one's life. We also did podcast interviews with her. Speaking of the Stoics, she wrote an article on that very topic:

Quote from Cassius

But here is he saying that he was "alive" during that hundred million years? ("presence of a deep ...satisfaction?")

No, I don't take it that way at all. I take it the same way as "I was not. I was. I am no longer. I care not."

Annihilation has no terrors for me, because I have already tried it before I was born—a hundred million years—and I have suffered more in an hour, in this life, than I remember to have suffered in the whole hundred million years put together. There was a peace, a serenity, an absence of all sense of responsibility, an absence of worry, an absence of care, grief, perplexity; and the presence of a deep content and unbroken satisfaction in that hundred million years of holiday which I look back upon with a tender longing and with a grateful desire to resume, when the opportunity comes.

p. 69 of Vol. II of The Complete and Authoritative Edition, 2013, University of California Press

Welcome aboard!

Using a combo of the Glossarium, VH2, and Papyri.info, we should be able to find images and transcriptions of almost any of the extant papyri. I am always curious to see the source material for even scholarly reconstructions or "corrections." Call me a skeptic Granted, the images are already interpretations of what's on the physical papyri in many cases, but you gotta work with whatcha got.

Quote from Bryan

Is it P.Herc. 1418?

Sorry, is what P. Herc.1418? U184? Yes. It looks like column 30:

DCLP/Trismegistos 62469 = LDAB 3645

But Papyri.info doesn't have the images for PHerc1418! And that drachma line has A LOT of holes.

Where's that image from in your post?

Herculanensium voluminum quae supersunt collectio altera : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

By Zeus!! It took me forever to remember what the Usener citation Vol. Herc. 2, I.127 referred to! I'm placing this here for future reference:

Vol. Herc. 2 or simply VH² refers to Herculanensium voluminum quae supersunt collectio altera in at least 8 volumes. The I is the volume number (ie, volume 1), 127 is the image/plate number. Here is the archive link to all volumes:

Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Texts, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine

FYI

Hyperborea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I took this to mean simply that even if there were students of Epicurus as far away (literally at the ends of the Earth) as Hyperborea, they'd still be expected to send the annual "donation" to the Garden of Athens of 220 drachmae.

I will point out that this amount is evidently a reconstruction of a text:

.κατον γαρ κα- -ικοσι -ρ--μ- ---ας

With the lacunae, I find είκοσι (20) easy enough to see, but I wonder if the reconstruction isn't missing something to do with the annual birthday 20th somehow. I'll have to dig a little more, but I could imagine "donations must be received by the annual 20th celebration" but I would have to dig into finding a manuscript image or examine the Greek MUCH MORE closely. That's just all idle speculation right now! Reader beware.