Posts by Charles

I admire the clarity of purpose as of late in combatting this idea. It's been some time since I've engaged with Stoic and Christian communities online but this was always the primary charge they levied on Epicurus, which in their mind was humoring him. There's definitely a linguistic chain of events here which is causing the misunderstanding. Most translations and the brevity of the PD's highlight the removal of pain which incentivizes the reader to assume the emphasis is on "removing bad to achieve good" so to speak.

Total pleasure requires absolute and constant pleasure to the degree pain is not possible.

Quote from Bryan

Which version did you choose Charles? Which color and base?

I chose the faux-bronze looking one on the left. Though, I might order the marble one with the rounded base.

A shop on Etsy sells more "authentic" copies of some busts of Epicurus made of marble. Though they are quite pricy. I have one.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/HistoricalStatues?ref=shop-header-name&listing_id=1414963794&from_page=listing&search_query=epicurus

Quote from Cassius

It seems clear from this chapter that D'Holbach has deviated from Epicurus on the matter of "free will""

http://www.ftarchives.net/holbach/system/a11.htm

Last paragraph of that chapter:

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The false ideas he has formed to himself upon free-agency, are in general thus founded: there are certain events which he judges necessary; either because he sees they are effects that are constantly, are invariably linked to certain causes, which nothing seems to prevent; or because he believes he has discovered the chain of causes and effects that is put in play to produce those events: whilst he contemplates as contingent, other events, of whose causes he is ignorant; the concatenation of which he does not perceive; with whose mode of acting he is unacquainted: but in Nature, where every thing is connected by one common bond, there exists no effect without a cause. In the moral as well as in the physical world, every thing that happens is a necessary consequence of causes, either visible or concealed; which are, of necessity, obliged to act after their peculiar essences. In man, free-agency is nothing more than necessity contained within himself.

I don't have my sources on hand and I'm currently at work. But the conclusion I had with most of my readings of these middle Enlightenment era figures from France and Germany is that the despite the enduring popularity of Lucretius and the increasing anti-clerical sentiment, the rise of this "billiard board" model can be attributed to the profound influence that Newton had on physics and mathematics. We see a general rise in the belief of mechanistic determinism among these Enlightenment Epicureans, most prominently in La Mettrie.

On another note, the "riddle" showing up in Holbach is interesting. I don't know when Laertius was properly introduced, but one of La Mettrie's peers in the court of Frederick the Great owned and cited his copy of Lives and Opinions concerning Epicurus. Perhaps a foggy timeline of Lucretius became conflated with Epicurus' own time.

I'll try to make it tonight, though I have a happy hour to go to after work.

I wasn't able to make it to the Monday Happy hour because of a small emergency, however I'll be here tonight.

Quote from Pacatus

I hasten to say that I have no moral qualms or objections whatsoever. I would suspect that friendship was also part of any such relationships. But I have not been able to find any confirming sources. Has anyone else?

I haven't been able to find any concrete source on this. Though there are some suggestions or allusions that perhaps he had some relation in one way or another with Pythocles, whether that's in bad faith or not is hard to say given the nature of Plutarch.

Although it wouldn't surprise me, I wouldn't make the same claim as Wilson. The best we can say is "maybe he did."

Perhaps we're looking at it the wrong way. Pleasure by most people will either be the virtue of swine or cite Nozick's pleasure machine when confronted with the goal of pleasure as a defining force and factor in life. Regardless, I don't there is a concise and clear statement, at least not yet.

Maybe instead of "both" we ought to equate them with each other with "is".

Im busy at the moment but my understanding is that it came to epistemic differences about matter and time. To the Cyrenaics there was only the present, thus pleasures here and now mattered the most. Hiram and I spoke about it a few years back but I'd have to dig for that.

Quote from Adrian

Is there a recommended translation of the works of Epicurus? - I tend to use the 1964 Russel Geer version.

The Cyril Bailey translation is a solid pick for reading the Diogenes Laertius book on Epicurus. Otherwise there are also the Peter St Andre translations, the anonymous Epicurism site translations. Be sure to check out Cicero's On Ends and Lucretius as well.

Quote from Cassius

What? "Rumination" is not generally a negative word, is it?

Like Todd, I always took it to be neutral. At best it's the meandering stream of conscious, with some merit. At worst it's delusion. I find it useful to rethink familiar paths and conclusions in an almost scholastic manner.

Quote from Don

My only hesitation is that the picture has - to me - an almost Jesus vibe with the orientation of the face and the long hair. I didn't notice the pig until cassius pointed it out.

To be fair, Che Guevara does have a loose resemblance to Jesus.

Quote from Cassius

Your reaction to "hero worship" is very common, but ultimately I think that the concern is unjustified. Epicurean philosophy teaches you to question authority and demand answers based on evidence, and it doesn't lead in the direction of general cultism for anyone who thinks about it.

I think it's worth heeding some amount of caution over this. There's always been the trend of venerating past philosophers, and that is still true today. However, were it not for the insistence of the Epicurean school and of Epicurus himself on carrying his image, we would have a dearth of objects and depictions. It lends a much-needed certainty and confidence to an otherwise fragmented system.

The issue instead, lies in our usage of his image. Carrying around copies of jewelry that once existed among the schools (different schools often had signifiers ala the cloak and staff of the cynics) is acceptable, and so are keeping busts of notable Epicureans, in my view. There are others too, such as the commissioned art of Epicurus breaking his chains on the front page of the site. It's when we get into objects such as clothing and votive candles when it starts to become cult-like.

Pair this with our stringent need/belief to retain the classical elements of the philosophy and to not hoist eclectic principles on the same pedestal of Epicurus, and the issue becomes more apparent.

Welcome Plantpierogi!

The two figures on the left strike me as Plato & Socrates respectively. Although that's hardly based off of anything. It's too obscure to make any definitive judgement, whether it represents most of the schools much like the School of Athens, or perhaps it's not depicting any one specific philosopher at all.

Quote from Todd

I don't see any references to babies or animals in either the PD or the Letter to Menoeceus. Of course that doesn't prove Epicurus didn't use the cradle argument. But the case remains open!

The best source for this is actually from Diogenes Laertius.

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A further difference from the Cyrenaics: they thought that bodily pains were worse than those of the soul, and pointed out that offenses are visited by bodily punishment. But Epicurus held that the pains of the soul are worse, for the flesh is only troubled for the moment, but the soul for past, present, and future. In the same way the pleasures of the soul are greater. As proof that pleasure is the end, he points out that all living creatures as soon as they are born take delight in pleasure, but resist pain by a natural impulse apart from reason. Therefore we avoid pain by instinct, just as Heracles, when he is being devoured by the shirt of Nessus, cries aloud,

I'm approaching all of this from the perspective of proselytization. The issue is with the definition of pleasure itself, so, as to avoid a word-game, it makes more sense to ground it into something purely Epicurean to avoid a lot of the "baggage" the word will inevitably face. A similar example would be the word "indifference" in the context of Stoicism. It takes on its own meaning with its own contextual points and definitions tied to source material.

I realize this may be going a bit off topic and is simultaneously opening a large can of worms, but it might be better to recuperate the idea of pleasure rather than building a theory of pleasure. By this, when we say "pleasure" we refer to choices and avoidances, prudence, the categorization of desires, the rose problem, etc. In doing so, our usage and treatment in such a different context might encourage others to reconsider their understanding of pleasure, leading to an easier comprehension. Consider it the wyrmwood before the honey, in this case, if you will.

Quote from Charles

Perhaps it's less "happiness and contentment through my free will and contemplation" and more "pleasure is the active and passive sensation I experience from my study of nature and rejection of the supernatural on top of making choices and avoidances according to my desires."

I'm reminded of a weekly zoom call we had where Mathitis Kipouros spoke about a peer of his where his [camotero's] attempt to teach him about the limits and variety of pleasures was met with utter confusion. His peer inadvertently spoke like an Epicurean and presumably needed Epicurean advice but the gap could not be bridged because of their different understanding of pleasure.

Quote from Don

Do those pleasures I have listed lead to a life of secure pleasure [...]

They would certainly believe so. Though in some respects, maybe they have a point, not in their rhetoric attached to such lifestyles, but acting in according to their desires in their own non-Epicurean way.

I don't believe pleasure can be isolated as a sole concept in the philosophy without an extremely vague definition attached to it, let alone through comparison. Instead, it should be tied to ethics and the concepts in the PD's and such. Perhaps it's less "happiness and contentment through my free will and contemplation" and more "pleasure is the active and passive sensation I experience from my study of nature and rejection of the supernatural on top of making choices and avoidances according to my desires."