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Posts by Martin
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Corrections:
Stammtisch
The emphasis is in most cases on drinking, talk and laughter but they come in all types of regular gatherings.
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At first pass reading, this is fine with 2 clarifications:
Prudence is the greatest good - in our toolset to assure pleasure as the goal.
We have the confidence that with prudence, we can always fulfill our necessary desires. Based on the peace of mind this gives, we can make prudent choices of fulfilling unnecessary desires if we expect that their fulfillment gives us pleasures which are worth the involved pain.
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Welcome Ayraj!
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Welcome Pacatus!
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I agree with rediscoverability of the major ideas of Epicurus' philosophy in a similarly consistent way.
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Quote
A question that comes up for me lately is, at what point does an Epicurean say: "I've studied the teachings and I've learned the teachings, now I will simply just live the teachings." Yet, one would not feel fully contented until one as established the fundamental material attributes underlying the Epicurean lifestyle.
After having studied "enough", the confidence that our intuition and the philosophy match comes up as an inner sensation. If pleasurable, we can keep delving into ever more details but there is no need to do so. This is similar to science: Once we have studied enough science to reach the confidence in an exclusively material world, there is no more need to study more science unless we need specific knowledge for a hedonic calculus. However, if science gives us great pleasure, we may choose it as our main hobby or profession and thereby spend a large part of our life studying or contributing to science.
While reading more Epicurean texts and contributing to the forum is pleasurable for me, I spend most of my free time on other pleasures and on preparations for other pleasures.
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Welcome boyh0wdy!
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I do not know of any better living German Scholar on Epicurus than Gisela Striker.
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I get the same access problem.
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Piece of mind is pleasurable, should preferably be there when we go for the next exciting kind of pleasure, and should preferably be there when we are exhausted from that exciting pleasure later on. We might recede to a cave with a stock of bread and water at that time but if we stay there for a longer time than what we need for rest or meditation, pain in the form of boredom will come up.
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Some of Hossenfelder's ideas do look like from the "Stoics and Epicureans are much the same" camp but he is well aware of differences as well. Therefore, he is in the middle between us and that camp. I focused my review mostly on where I disagree with Hossenfelder and where he took a clearer position than I have seen before. He has a lot of material which matches our interpretation. He quotes Lucretius a lot and treats the poem like a primary source of Epicurus' ideas.
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Malte Hossenfelder's book "Epikur" is in the library of Cologne. I read it there and wrote a review at:
His much bigger book on Hellenistic philosophy would be needed to go more into details of his reasoning but that book was not in the library.
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Malte Hossenfelder's book (Verlag C. H. Beck oHG, Munich 1991, 3rd., updated edition, 2006, ISBN 978-3-406-54122-3) is one of a series of the publishing company on thinkers. Apparently, the publishing company limited the size of the book and thereby the level of detail.
The book depicts Hellenistic philosophy as the origin of individualism and Epicurus as the most prominent pioneer of individualism. It is a good introduction to Epicurus' philosophy when the reader is on the alert for some shortcomings.
Hossenfelder appears to be sympathetic to Epicurus' philosophy. Unfortunately, he came up with some misleading oversimplifications which seem to contradict Epicurus' extant texts and how we interpret them here on this forum.
He seems to overlook that Epicurus' philosophy is not only a logic system but refers to human nature as ultimate "irrational" motivation and to the nature of individual humans as source for variation in what are the most appropriate actions to take.
Therefore, Hossenfelder makes typical mistakes of "logicians", e. g. he misinterprets Epicurus' philosophy as egoistic and ignores the emotional aspects of friendship. Once a friendship has been established, the bonding is actually much stronger and important than the equivalent of profitable trades between indifferent business partners.
The table below lists some noteworthy details from the book.
Page Quote in German original English translation by Google corrected by Martin Martin's Comments 56 D. h. es gibt einem sicheren Weg zur
Glückseligkeit, der jedermann offensteht: Nimm Dir nur das vor, von dem gewiß ist, daß Du es auch bekommst.I. e. there is a sure path to happiness which is open to everybody: Take on only what is certain that you will get it. This seems to be adequate when "certainty" is clarified as "with high likelihood". 56 Epikur umschreibt den Zustand der
Glückseligkeit, wie vor ihm schon der Skeptiker Pyrrhon, mit ataraxia, was wir gemeinhin mit "Seelenruhe" übersetzen. Die Stoiker gebrauchen den Ausdruck apatheia. Gemeint ist jedesmal dasselbe, nämlich das Freisein von jeglicher Erregung, die Ruhe und Ausgeglichenheit des Gemüts, der vollkommene innere Friede, vergleichbar der Meeresstille.Epicurus describes the state of bliss, like the skeptic Pyrrho before him, with ataraxia, which we commonly translate as "peace of mind" .The Stoics use the term apatheia.What is meant each time is the same, namely the freedom from any excitement, the calm and equilibrium of the mind, the perfect inner peace, comparable to the calm of the sea. Equating ataraxia with apatheia seems to be an oversimplification. Hossenfelder refers to his much bigger book on Hellenistic philosophy for details. For a proper understanding and possibly a refutation, that other book would have to be studied. 56 Bis hierher stimmen die Auffassungen aller hellenistischen Denker weitgehend überein. Es sei aber ausdrücklich darauf hingewiesen, daß sich die vorgetragenen Gedanken zur Grundlegung der Gesamtepoche zum großen Teil auf Rekonstruktion stützen und sie sich in dieser Form nicht mehr aus den
überlieferten Quellen belegen lassen.Under the aspects presented here so far, the views of all Hellenistic thinkers are largely in agreement. It should be expressly pointed out, however, that the ideas presented on the foundation of the entire epoch are largely based on reconstruction and can no longer be substantiated in this form from the extant sources. Hossenfelder's formulation implies that he expects that if more sources had survived they would support his reconstruction. This is unlikely because that claimed agreement appears to contradict extant texts of Epicurus. 63 Epikur kommt somit auf ganz folgerichtige Weise zum Hedonismus:
Höchstes Gut ist die Glückseligkeit des einzelnen, diese besteht in der Ataraxie, diese ist Lust, also ist das höchste Gut Lust.Epicurus thus came to hedonism in a very consistent way: The highest good is the happiness of the individual, this consists in ataraxia, this is pleasure, so the highest good is pleasure. This resembles Hegelian style false logic and appears to be a misleading oversimplification. Epicurus' philosophy is better characterized by the statement that peace of mind is required to experience maximum pleasure but is not equal to pleasure. 122 Wie die Art der Kanonik so erklärt sich auch die besondere Form der Epikureischen Naturphilosophie aus den Aufgaben, die ihr von der Ethik bestimmt werden. Like the type of canon, the special form of Epicurean natural philosophy is explained by the tasks that are determined for it by ethics. It rather appears that Epicurus' derives the ethics from his natural philosophy, or he might have developed both together. However, which view is correct can probably not be established from the extant texts. 128 Der andere Grund, die unendliche theoretische Teilbarkeit zu bestreiten, betrifft die Art der Bewegung der Atome. Die Ursache ihrer Bewegung ist ihre Schwere, die Richtung wird bestimmt entweder durch die Schwere oder durch den Zusammenstoß mit anderen Atomen. Die Schwere läßt sie nach unten fallen, wobei Epikur sich darüber im Klaren ist, daß es im unendlichen Raum kein absolutes Oben und Unten gibt. Er definiert deshalb auch die Atombewegung nicht durch unten und oben, sondern umgekehrt diese durch jene: "Unten" heißt die Richtung, in die sich die Atome vermöge ihrer natürlichen Schwere bewegen, "oben" die entgegengesetzte. Alle übrigen Bewegungsrichtungen resultieren aus den Zusammenstößen, durch die sich auch die sichtbaren Körper entstehen. The other reason to dispute the infinite theoretical divisibility concerns the nature of the motion of the atoms. The cause of their movement is their gravity, the direction is determined either by gravity or by collision with other atoms. Gravity lets them fall down, whereby Epicurus is aware that there is no absolute above and below in infinite space. He therefore does not define the atomic movement in terms of below and above, but, conversely, these by the former: "Below" is the direction in which the atoms move due to their natural gravity, "above" the opposite. All other directions of movement result from the collisions, which also create the visible bodies. Epicurus' related explanations in the Letter to Herodotus appear contradictory. The way Hossenfelder clears up the mess makes sense but of course this now consistent theory of gravity by Epicurus remains false in view of today's knowledge. 133 Ferner stützt der Gedanke an die Unberechenbarkeit der Tyche die Einsicht, daß ein solches Glück nur garantiert ist, wenn man seine Ziele nicht in die äußeren Dinge, sondern in sich selbst verlegt, daß es allein auf die innere Einstellung ankommt. Furthermore, the thought of the unpredictability of luck supports the insight that such happiness is only guaranteed if one places one's goals not in external things but in oneself, so that it depends only on the inner attitude. Hossenfelder ignores that the hedonic calculus takes into account that certainty can never be achieved and a high likelihood is sufficient as a base for peace of mind and that a minimum of external things must be obtained for pleasure. This is another aspect where Hossenfelder's identification of pleasure with peace of mind misleads. 136 Bemerkenswert ist, daß er bei der Entstehung der Arten in Fortführung Empedokleischer Gedanken zu einer Theorie gelangt, die schon der Darwinschen sehr nahekommt. It is noteworthy that with the emergence of the species, in continuation of Empedokles' ideas, he arrives at a theory that comes very close to Darwin's. Agreed. 138
139Denn anders als der neuzeitliche Mensch wollte der Helenist
Epikur die Natur eben nicht beherrschen, sondern gleichgültig machen. Nach ihm ist es für das Heil des Menschen am besten, wenn er sich nicht weiter um die Natur kümmert. Sie ist ein blindes Geschehen, das nach festen Kausalgesetzen ohne Ziel abläuft und auf den Menschen keinnerlei Bezug hat. Dennoch ist durch die Evolution gesichert, daß er alles findet, was er wirklich braucht. Alles darüber hinausgehende Begehren beruht auf leerem Wahn. Dies einzusehen und daraus eine ruhige, gelassene Einstellung zur Natur zu gewinnen, ist die einzige Aufgabe, die der Mensch ihr gegenüber hat. Denn so allein schafft er die Voraussetzung seiner Glückseligkeit, die der höchste Zweck alles Daseins ist.Unlike modern man, the Hellenist
Epicurus did not want to control nature but make it indifferent. According to him, it is best for man's peace of mind if he no longer cares about nature. It is a blind mechanism that runs according to fixed causal laws without a goal and has no relation whatsoever to humans. Nevertheless, evolution ensures that he will find everything he really needs. Any desire beyond that is based on empty delusion. To see this and to gain a calm, serene attitude towards nature from it, is the only task that humans have towards it. For in this way alone does he create the prerequisite for his happiness, which is the highest purpose of all existence.Under this aspect, the difference between 2300 years ago and now is rather gradual than discrete. The destruction of Mediterranean forests in ancient times demonstrates that the ancient humans conquered nature, too. Moreover, the idea of conquering nature is already present in the Old Testament, too.
For peace of mind, natural philosophy is indeed not necessary beyond the assurance that there is a natural explanation for every phenomenon. However, for those who gain pleasure from the pursuit of science, it is a worthy subject to work on.
In the statements of this paragraph, Hossenfelder is mislead by his already mentioned oversimplifications. -
I agree that for quite some pleasures, we might spoil them if we analyze them while we experience them. The main benefit of that analysis would be to improve the hedonic calculus. Therefore, we should rather analyze them afterwards, e.g. at the time we plan actions for future pleasures.
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It happens at any age but more often the older we get. Upon discussing a specific topic with a fellow student in 1989, we noticed only at the end of the discussion that we already had a similar discussion a year before.
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The American is Jack London.
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Thanks for adding Slide 5 in the introduction. However, the spelling of my family name is wrong. Please correct to "Huehne".
At the cut around 9:26, something is missing.
At the cut around 10:19, something is missing.
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Assuming that the Wikipedia section on Chryssipus' syllogistic correctly describes what he wrote, he certainly knew how to apply logic but he did not have a deep understanding of logic.
His "indemonstrables" are very well demonstrable because they are well known theorems of logic, which can be proven e.g. by truth tables. There is no point in using them as axioms because they are proven theorems and therefore readily available for further proofs.
His syllogistic seems to be a regression to times before Aristotle. It is not wrong but a detour in the history of philosophy and for the dust bin.
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Intensity of pleasure is usually limited in time by control loops in our body (e.g. lack of ability to get aroused after an orgasm, getting used to the particular pleasure, exhaustion, overstimulation) or by the nature of the activity.
In general, I attempt to feel the easy to get pleasure of low intensity for most of the time and intense pleasure only occasionally. If intense pleasure comes as as a surprise without having expected it and without the typically painful preparation for it, I of course try to enjoy the experience as much as possible.
As pleasure depends heavily on the individual, here are some practical examples:
One of the greatest pleasures I have experienced so far is flying along ziplines high up through spectacular scenery. A flight along one zipline usually takes much less than a minute, so the intense pleasure is naturally limited to a very short time. (I wish there were 10 km long ziplines). In terms of pain, zipline flying requires long travel to go to the respective place, it is expensive, the effort might be in vain because the operator might block me from the ziplines because of high blood pressure or bad weather, and pain in the form of anxiety of height might kill the pleasure. The risk of injury and death seems to be so low that it does not show up in my hedonic calculus but for others that might be relevant.
The listed pains (in particular the waste of time for travel and the risks of travel) make me pursue the desire for zipline flights only rarely. However, the expectation of the intense pleasure makes me plan for more zipline flights in the future. So far, I have 2 new places on my bucket list, may add more as I find them near where I travel anyway and might go again to places where I have been already if other reasons for travel get me near them.
I took the opportunity of floating in a vertical wind canal when business travel brought me in walking distance to one. It was a pleasure but not as great as I expected, apparently because it requires skill and experience. I expect the pleasure to increase greatly after gaining the skill and experience. In case there is a wind tunnel near a place where I happen to stay for an extended period and cost of access is moderate, I would probably do this often because of the expectation of great pleasure although the duration of the pleasure is always short by the nature of the activity.
I never did skydiving with a parachute from a plane. I am not sure whether I would pursue an easy opportunity for skydiving. The reported pleasure of free fall is attractive but the pain in terms of fear of flight on a plane and possibly intense fear of heights is a deterrent.
I would probably not pursue an opportunity for a zero gravity flight or a space flight because the result of the hedonic calculus is negative for me.
Another one of the greatest pleasures I have experienced so far is falling asleep together with my wife (ex-wife since recently, sigh) while hugging each other. It is limited in time in 2 different ways:
If I actually fall asleep within minutes, the onset of deep sleep terminates the conscious and memorable experience of the pleasure.
If I stay fully awake for several minutes with no indication of falling asleep soon, boredom kicks in, and the increasing desire to do something converts the experience from pleasure to pain.
Another great pleasure was indulging in chocolate mousse. Many years ago, a chain restaurant provided it in a big bowl as part of its buffet. It was the main motivation for me to eat at that restaurant. By going repeatedly to the bowl and filling a small plate with a moderate amount, I ended up with a meal with more than 50% chocolate mousse by volume, and as it was a buffet meal, the whole meal meant gross overeating way beyond feeling no more hungry and stopping just short of discomfort. At that time, I ignored the risk of accelerated onset of diabetes from excessive intake of sugar.
Then, the restaurant changed to provide the chocolate mousse only in small cups. I felt too embarrassed to take many of these cups, so I ended up eating much less chocolate mousse, at most 3 cups.
Eventually, I wanted to reduce the risk of diabetes by excluding most foods with substantial amounts of sugar. I gradually reduced the number of cups to just one and got accustomed to the shortened duration of the intense pleasure of eating chocolate mousse and to appreciate the less intense pleasure of eating other food. I changed my habit further from choosing the cup which was filled with the most amount of mousse to the one which had the least.
After a while of strongly reduced sugar intake, I lost the craving for chocolate mousse and stopped eating it at that chain restaurant, to which I still go once a week when I stay near one.
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