Posts by Cassius

Hello Mako, good to hear from you! This sounds very interesting - let me send you a private message. Glad to have you back!

I note the excerpt above said he fled "without his shield" but no telling what role he really had: "Horace later recorded it as a day of embarrassment for himself, when he fled without his shield, but allowance should be made for his self-deprecating humour. Moreover, the incident allowed him to identify himself with some famous poets who had long ago abandoned their shields in battle, notably his heroes Alcaeus and Archilochus. The comparison with the latter poet is uncanny: Archilochus lost his shield in a part of Thrace near Philippi, and he was deeply involved in the Greek colonization of Thasos, where Horace's die-hard comrades finally surrendered.""

OK so THIS explains the self-deprecating ending of the letter to Tibullus on sleek and fat:

Suetonius: "In person he was short and fat, as he is described with his own pen in his satires6 and by Augustus in the following letter: "Onysius has brought me your little volume, and I accept it, small as it is, in good part, as an apology. But you seem to me to be afraid that your books may be bigger than you are yourself; but it is only stature that you lack, not girth. So you may write on a pint pot, that the circumference of your volume may be well rounded out, like that of your own belly."

I've not attempted to read much into Horace's background; probably it would be good somewhere to list some links to good references to his life beyond just wikipedia. Surely there will be some articles too which explore specifically his Epicurean aspects. I believe I remember reading that Horace had perhaps been a soldier on the Republican side at Philippi? OK:

"Rome's troubles following the assassination of Julius Caesar were soon to catch up with him. Marcus Junius Brutus came to Athens seeking support for the republican cause. Brutus was fêted around town in grand receptions and he made a point of attending academic lectures, all the while recruiting supporters among the young men studying there, including Horace. An educated young Roman could begin military service high in the ranks and Horace was made tribunus militum (one of six senior officers of a typical legion), a post usually reserved for men of senatorial or equestrian rank and which seems to have inspired jealousy among his well-born confederates. He learned the basics of military life while on the march, particularly in the wilds of northern Greece, whose rugged scenery became a backdrop to some of his later poems. It was there in 42 BC that Octavian (later Augustus) and his associate Mark Antony crushed the republican forces at the Battle of Philippi. Horace later recorded it as a day of embarrassment for himself, when he fled without his shield, but allowance should be made for his self-deprecating humour. Moreover, the incident allowed him to identify himself with some famous poets who had long ago abandoned their shields in battle, notably his heroes Alcaeus and Archilochus. The comparison with the latter poet is uncanny: Archilochus lost his shield in a part of Thrace near Philippi, and he was deeply involved in the Greek colonization of Thasos, where Horace's die-hard comrades finally surrendered."

Also I see there is a reference to Suetonius' "Life of Horace" (Latin, but we need English ) Loeb (limited access)

Here we go - Life of Horace at LacusCurtius

Interesting thought to look for parallels like that. Here is the Munro edition of the final passage of Book VI

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Along with the opening:

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That's a great question that I am far from resolving to my own satisfaction.

Both the way it ends as the end of the chapter, and as the end of the book, seems questionable, but not so stark that the issue is clear. I'd have to go back and compare the details of the way the first five chapters close, but the way the details of the plague of Athens are recited without quite as much commentary seems to me to indicated it might have been intended to have a special impact fitting for the end.

On the other hand there seem to be references sprinkled in the poem to more discussion of the gods to come, which never seems to appear.

So at the moment I personally tend to think that while the chapter ends well enough as a chapter (in comparison with the way the other chapters end), I'm not convinced that Lucretius planned it to be the end of the book as a whole.

I too would be very interested in the reactions of others.

Welcome, Epicurusleif, and thank you for taking the initiative to introduce yourself! I hope you will enjoy your time with us an will post on any topic of interest to you!

Thank you Jnamiotka!

pasted-from-clipboard.pngPlease consider joining us for online live discussion of Norman DeWitt's "Epicurus And His Philosophy" - All of our sessions are informal discussions for those who are interested in learning more about Epicurean philosophy - no expertise required!

A discussion outline for each session will be posted here in the EpicureanFriends forum

For links to the discord group go directly here: https://discord.gg/mdQY8WW

Or follow this easier to remember link: www.NewEpicurean.com/discordapp

Start time is subject to change depending on who can attend and conflicts with other events. An announcement for the next meeting will be found in the Announcement Box at the top of the Forum home page and Dashboard. For the latest discussion of time and date and other details, please go to the thread for the particular chapter: Discussion Plan For Norman DeWitt's "Epicurus And His Philosophy"

Our current dates and time are set to allow maximum participation both in the USA and in Europe. All scheduling is open to revision depending on participants, and once we complete one cycle through the book we expect to do this on a regular basis, and we can set dates and times accordingly.

Thanks for your participation!

I have posted a notice for the next DeWitt Chapter chat to be Saturday August 18th at 6PM Eastern. This will be Chapter 11 - "Soul, Sensation, and Mind." If anyone has conflicts and would prefer that we reschedule for another date or time, please post here.

I have posted a notice for the next DeWitt Chapter chat to be Saturday August 18th at 6PM Eastern. This will be Chapter 11 - "Soul, Sensation, and Mind." If anyone has conflicts and would prefer that we reschedule for another date or time, please post here.

I have posted a notice for the next DeWitt Chapter chat to be Saturday August 18th at 6PM Eastern. This will be Chapter 11 - "Soul, Sensation, and Mind." If anyone has conflicts and would prefer that we reschedule for another date or time, please post here.

Amid hopes and cares, amid fears and passions, believe that every day that has dawned is your last. Gratefully will arrive to you another hour unhoped for. As for me, when you want a laugh, you will see me in fine state, fat and flourishing, a hog from Epicurus's herd.

- Quintus Horatius Flaccus - Letter to Tibullus

jnamiotka - I know this is not Lucretius, but if you are up for it, I would be appreciative of your commentary on the passage from Horace which I see frequently quoted, but which I have always wondered as to the most literal way to translate. The above version is the one I have featured on the sidebar of this forum, but if it can be improved in accuracy it would be good to do that.

From wikipedia: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Horace

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For example the "true" in "true hog" probably does not appear in the Latin.

The version at Epicurus.net is http://www.epicurus.net/en/tibullus.html -

Amid hopes and cares, amid fears and passions, believe that every day that has dawned is your last. Gratefully will arrive to you another hour unhoped for. As for me, when you want a laugh, you will see me in fine state, fat and flourishing, a hog from Epicurus's herd.

Another version (unclear as to name of translator): http://www.authorama.com/works-of-horace-8.html --

When you have a mind to laugh, you shall see me fat and sleek with good keeping, a hog of Epicurus’ herd.

Another version ("Letters of Horace Presented to Modern Readers")

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A follow-on observation about working with (1) the choice of attitude and also (2) the choice in the particular instance:

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(page 193 of the text)

On page 186 of his text, DeWitt cites this interesting quote from Diogenes of Oinoanda: "The secret of happiness is in the diathesis, of which we are sole arbiters." The quote is cited as fragment 57 from the inscription, but apparently a different numbering system is being used by Martin Ferguson Smith here, nor do I find the numbering to be the same in Chilton's "Diogenes of Oenoanda - The Fragments." Both of these works post-date DeWitt, so he must have been working from another source. Does anyone know a good cite for this or know the equivalent in Smith's translation?

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Jnamniota: Actually I had not seen that list, or not recently enough to remember it. Thank you! I see it lists the translator as anonymous so apparently the translator is not a mystery only to me. I presume it's not Lucy Hutchinson since one of the plates does say "a new translation" and it appears her was almost one hundred years previously.

"If you're wondering about any particular passages in DRN, I'd be very happy to take a crack at them: just send them my way!" < I will take you up on that offer!

Some years ago I came across on Youtube this Latin poem "A Thousand Kisses" by Catullus sung in a catchy updated style. It has stuck with me ever since. Too bad, isn't it, that we don't have someone qualified to set some Lucretius to music like this?

[As Martin pointed out, not exactly "punk rock" as referenced on the youtube page, is it?]

Probably of all Lucretius this passage below would be one of the most useful ones to set to music, or even just to have someone read the Latin in an engaging modern way:

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For those who prefer their "s" and "f" in a modern font, also with slight changes in the text. (note for example in the last line obteritur vs opteritur). This is Munro:

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Also, Jnamiotka, I am not enough of a Greek scholar to understand the reference in your user name. What does it mean?

Thank you for being here jnamiotka and thank you for the background info! Most of us here are not trained professionals like yourself, so your expertise is very valuable here in addition to your classroom. There are many questions to ask over time, especially about Lucretius, but this one pops to mind due to my present attention to transcribing it:

Have you come across in the past the 1734 English edition of Lucretius published by "Daniel Browne" as linked here: http://www.epicureanfriends.co…d=on_the_nature_of_things

I have just a little formal training in Latin, and not nearly enough to trust my own translations, so in substitute I rely on cross-checking passages between Bailey, Munro, Martin Ferguson Smith, and anyone else I can find who I believe is trustworthy enough to consider. I recently came across this 1734 edition and find it to be pretty useful, but it frustrates me that I am not able to cite the translator - Daniel Browne apparently being the publisher. It's hard for me to believe that the title page and intro seem to make no reference to the translator.

I should mention I am also aware of the Creech translation, which I think was owned by Jefferson (maybe he had the Daniel Browne too) but I haven't yet tried to transcribe it, and if I remember correctly at those times I looked at it, the English didn't seem particularly better in any way than the others I've cited above.

I've focused primarily on those old enough now to be in the public domain, as being freely usable, plus that of Martin Ferguson Smith, which I suspect might be the current champion for accuracy. If you teach Lucretius and have any comment on translations I would love to hear it.

To continue that last thought, my concern is that we are sort of "spread too thin" in our current internet efforts, or maybe worse, my concern is that Epicurean philosophy has been so intellectualized due to prevailing Stoic/Platonic attitudes that we don't even understand anymore what has been lost. The idea that spending all our time intellectualizing and debating fine points of the philosophy without actually taking any realistic steps to apply it is probably something Epicurus would find appalling, and would see as the victory of his main opponents.