Posts by Kalosyni

Welcome to the forum DistantLaughter !

Just a note for something to look out for here on the forum regarding "katastematic pleasure" that there is some variance in how members here on the forum define and apply that.

I myself have ideas about it that I have yet to fully develop. Also, it is based on the larger context of "choice and avoidance" and it is going to be understood and applied differently depending on variations of extroversion/introversion (and also differences in physiological stress tolerance).

Quote from Cassius

helpful for understanding why Epicurus phrased things he way he did, and why a basic formulation such as "...we call pleasure the beginning and end of the happy life)

This may be pedantic, but to be precise in current meaning and clarity:

..."the start and the goal" ...and not: "the start and the cessation".

(After having studied Buddhism "the end" meant "cessation").

Don "How to eat like a stoic" ...a "stoic-friendly" lentil soup...he says that they don't get to use garum (fish sauce).

But the full Roman recipe has quite a few ingredients (starts approx. at 2:25 into the video).

Quote from kochiekoch

He had pneumonia, a fatty liver due to heavy alcohol use and alleged poor care at the hospital where he was at. All at aged 39

According to Diogenes Laertius Book 10, the Epicurean wise man sayings: "Only the Wise man could discourse rightly on music and poetry, but in practice he would not compose poems."

Eikadistes Wishing you a Happy Birthday!

A few of last night's Zoom slides were on Philodemus' On Anger:

Notes in first two slides were taken from the book: The Ethics of Philodemus, chapter 9 "Anger and the Desire for Revenge"

Don I'm thinking about the difference between emotions and feelings, and came up with this:

• Emotions are automatic, physiological responses to stimuli (the body's initial reaction)
• Feelings are the conscious awareness of experienced emotions together with further mental interpretations (further thoughts in an attempt to make sense of our emotional reaction)

Looking at that new list of words that you posted (in post 6)...and thinking about them (there's a lot of rabbit holes in these words ).

dlippman Welcome to the forum!

Don I looked at Brene Brown's "87 Emotions & Experiences" chart, and found it to be overly complicated, and would personally use different labels for things, and would classify things differently. But everyone finds things that resonate depending on their own framing.

I personally would recommend sticking with a smaller number of words and focusing on levels of intensity rather than trying to find fancy words for things.

I haven't yet looked into Lisa Feldman Barrett's system (will let you know after I do ).

Tomorrow night at First Monday I'll give a short overview on some of the ancient Epicurean texts that bring up the topic of emotions (from Diogenes Laertius, Lucretius, and Philodemus)...and then we will open it up to discussion (Cassius will be there helping moderate the discussion and available to answer any questions).

And just as an aside, here is something from modern thought and research on emotions, which is very multifaceted - an excerpt highlighting important psychology research, from a Wikipedia article:

Quote

Basic emotions

• William James in 1890 proposed four basic emotions: fear, grief, love, and rage, based on bodily involvement.^[35]
• Paul Ekman identified six basic emotions: anger, disgust, fear, happiness, sadness and surprise.^[36] Wallace V. Friesen and Phoebe C. Ellsworth worked with him on the same basic structure.^[37] The emotions can be linked to facial expressions. In the 1990s, Ekman proposed an expanded list of basic emotions, including a range of positive and negative emotions that are not all encoded in facial muscles.^[38] The newly included emotions are: amusement, contempt, contentment, embarrassment, excitement, guilt, pride in achievement, relief, satisfaction, sensory pleasure, and shame.^[38]
• Richard and Bernice Lazarus in 1996 expanded the list to 15 emotions: aesthetic experience, anger, anxiety, compassion, depression, envy, fright, gratitude, guilt, happiness, hope, jealousy, love, pride, relief, sadness, and shame, in the book Passion and Reason.^[39][40]
• Researchers^[41] at University of California, Berkeley identified 27 categories of emotion: admiration, adoration, aesthetic appreciation, amusement, anger, anxiety, awe, awkwardness, boredom, calmness, confusion, craving, disgust, empathic pain, entrancement, excitement, fear, horror, interest, joy, nostalgia, relief, romance, sadness, satisfaction, sexual desire and surprise.^[42] This was based on 2185 short videos intended to elicit a certain emotion. These were then modeled onto a "map" of emotions.^[43]

Contrasting basic emotions

A 2009 review^[44] of theories of emotion identifies and contrasts fundamental emotions according to three key criteria for mental experiences that:

1. have a strongly motivating subjective quality like pleasure or pain;
2. are a response to some event or object that is either real or imagined;
3. motivate particular kinds of behavior.

The combination of these attributes distinguishes emotions from sensations, feelings and moods.

Kind of emotion	Positive emotions	Negative emotions
Related to object properties	Interest, curiosity, enthusiasm	Alarm, panic
	Attraction, desire, admiration	Aversion, disgust, revulsion
	Surprise, amusement	Indifference, habituation, boredom
Future appraisal	Hope, excitement	Fear, anxiety, dread
Event-related	Gratitude, thankfulness	Anger, rage
	Joy, elation, triumph, jubilation	Sorrow, grief
	Patience	Frustration, restlessness
	Contentment	Discontentment, disappointment
Self-appraisal	Humility, modesty	Pride, arrogance
Social	Charity	Avarice, greed, miserliness, envy, jealousy
	Sympathy	Cruelty
Cathected	Love	Hate

Emotion dynamics

Researchers distinguish several emotion dynamics, most commonly how intense (mean level), variable (fluctuations), inert (temporal dependency), instable (magnitude of moment-to-moment fluctuations), or differentiated someone's emotions are (the specificity of granularity of emotions), and whether and how an emotion augments or blunts other emotions.^[45] Meta-analytic reviews show systematic developmental changes in emotion dynamics throughout childhood and adolescence and substantial between-person differences.^[45]

^{*Source: Wikipedia - Emotion Classification}

The following is from post 10 in the thread on Philodemus (referenced above), and a good summary:

Quote

Quote from Cassius

The conclusion of all this seems to be about as is stated on page 301 of the text (Column 46 of the roll):

So, then, having laid down these things on our own behalf and concerning us, with arguments that prove it, in support of there being a natural kind of anger, we have [indeed] replied that the sage will become angry.

(my emphasis on the last six words)

The main distinction seems to be that the wise person will in fact become angry when the situation calls for it, and will in fact act on his anger, but only after evaluating the situation coolly so as to determine if he does have the capacity to act in a way that will deter future conduct of the same sort. The other significant premise seems to be that the wise man will not let his anger turn into "rage," with the point apparently being that the wise man will feel his emotions deeply, but will not let those deeply-felt emotions interfere with his clear thinking.

All this may appear simple and straightforward enough, but if flies in the face of the Stoic or the "emotion-suppression" model that a lot of people seem to attribute to Epicurus. And it also flies in the face of the view that the Epicurean will above all avoid disturbance.

Quote from Kalosyni

This brings up the idea regarding the necessity to develop positive attitudes and then eventually habits in relation to things

I'm not sure if there is anything directly talking about having (or how to have) a positive attitude within Epicurean philosophy, but I want to recommend a book that I found to be very good: "Positivity" by Barbara Fredrickson, and which has science-backed research and a practical take on it, such as how to be positive in the face of difficult situations.

Quote from Adrastus

I suppose my motivation for posting it here was that I saw the topic name of "Conveying Epicurean Philosophy: Study and Practical Applications" and rather than start a new thread, I thought maybe the thread was meant to gather up different tools to use to explain Epicurean philosophy to folks.

Yes, we might eventually split off certain threads if the tools need more developement. (I confess that I am not exactly clear about your use of Johari windows).

I am seeing that there is a need for teaching of both the "theory" and "practical applications".

Theory = what and why

Practical applications = how

We really need both.

And also another issue is that in some sense Epicurean philosophy is like an elephant in a room with three blind men, where each man says either: "it is soft and smooth" (like an elephant ear) or "it is like a big tree (the trunk of an elephant) or "it is like a rope" (an elphant tail). Everyone is cognizing the philosophy in a slightly different manner.

So your starting point and your theory will dictate your "how" to implement it.

Quote from Adrastus

I come to unfortunately subtely resent opportunities to get free food or items or really much of anything, because I want to continue to appreciate and like things that I could continue to appreciate, and like if there weren't always in such ready supply or unwitteningly thrust upon me. More often getting "free" things becomes a felt loss of some sense of pleasure in the food in question or devalues items generally

This brings up the idea regarding the necessity to develop positive attitudes and then eventually habits in relation to things, and spurs on some further thoughts... going further with VS35 which Don quoted above...my own attitude for "free" things is "wow, it just happened by chance that I was in the right place at the right time, and this really good thing happened, and I think "how lucky I am!" and then savor things AND file the experience away as a happy memory to reflect upon. And yet, thinking further I also did something to increase my chances to experience something pleasurable...I had my eyes open for opportunties and I took certain actions...and basically I am seeking to add pleasure into my life.

Quote from Kalosyni

So often self-help websites give out a recommendation to return to a simple lifestyle, as an antedote to the "too much" of modern life (too much noise, too much traffic, too much commotion, too much stuff).

And yet, it seems this is an individual issue, as it is really about what feels right for each person - Epicurean philosophy says to pay attention to what feels pleasant and pleasurable. So some people may not need "simplicity".

What brings pleasure and what brings pain, can be different for different people. For example as Adrastus mentioned birthday cake above, and I often find that the idea is more pleasurable than the experience, and that is because many people think that it needs to be a certain level of sweetness (ie very sweet). But for myself I find that the best cakes are less sweet AND they are homemade with quality ingredients - and there is nothing "simple" about a well-made homemade cake! ...and well-made homemade chocolate cake, yum!...doesn't come about for me too often, so I really enjoy it when I have it.

This may potentially may have some overlap to Philodemus writing on the emotion of anger.

Here is what I gather are the 4 Johari categories:

1. behavior, feelings, and motivation about yourself that are both known by you and known by other people

2. behavior, feelings, and motivation about yourself that are known by you, but are unknown by other people

3. behavior, feelings, and motivation about yourself that are unknown by you, but are known by other people

4. behavior, feelings, and motivation about yourself that are both unknown by you and unknown by other people

Adrastus Is your main motivation in bringing this Johari window aimed mainly in the arena of self-improment or helping others with self-improvement?

Here are some thoughts on conveying Epicurean philosophy, which would be relevant for in-person groups as well as online.

I believe that there is both theory and practice when you learn something, and for Epicurean philosophy I put together the following chart - "Epicurean Philosophy: Internal Study and External Behaviors". A lot of what happens with Epicurean philosophy is an internal experience, but it doesn't have to be stuck in a high level of abstraction.

***

And I've been thinking about the ladder of abstraction, and that whatever you place at the top will affect your ladder (how and what you are communicating).

Quote

The ladder of abstraction illustrates another problem with conveying ideas clearly: “dead-level abstracting.” This is Hayakawa’s phrase for when someone communicates almost exclusively at one level on the ladder.

Perched on the ladder’s top rungs, an economist may lecture on the labor force through high-level classifications, macroeconomic terminology, and phrases like “enunciatory modalities” (say what?). But unless he connects those ideas with the real jobs that people commute to and experience everyday, his meaning will be lost on listeners who don’t think like him.

“The trouble with speakers who never leave the higher levels of abstraction is not only that they fail to notice when they are saying something and when they are not; they also produce a similar lack of discrimination in their audiences,” Hayakawa writes.

Communicators who stick to the low-rung details don’t fare much better. A science journalist may write beautifully about a newly discovered fossil. But unless she ties those details and facts together into a handy generalization or purposeful takeaway about evolutionary history, then she’ll leave her readers wondering, “So what?”

You can read a bit more about the "ladder of abstraction" in this article:

Boost your communication skills with the “ladder of abstraction”

The “ladder of abstraction” reveals why people communicating about the same thing may be doing so at different levels — and how to fix that.

bigthink.com

This is interesting:

Your Final Resting Place Could Be A Reef - Videos from The Weather Channel

What if your ashes could help restore the planet, long after you’re gone? One company is transforming the idea of a “final resting place,” by offering…

weather.com

Restructuring of forum:

The subform category previously labeled "Epicurean Lifestyle and Practical Applications" -- has now been absorbed into "Ethics - How to Live as an Epicurean". All of the sub-folders are still there and can be found toward the second half of the Ethics section. (This was as per Cassius' discretion).

Hi Everyone, coming up this next Monday is our First Monday Epicurean Meet-and-greet & Discussion Via Zoom. The topic of discussion this month: "Emotions in Epicurean Philosophy".

Agenda:

• Welcome and meet-and-greet: round the table greetings and introductions.
• A short presentation on the discussion topic (by Kalosyni). Following the presentation, discussion prompts will be given to spur on the discussion, and we will go around the table offering everyone an opportunity to participate in the discussion.
• We may also include discussion on the latest forum threads and podcast, depending on how the evening flows.
• We also include time for any questions on Epicurean philosophy, especially for newer members.

This meeting is open to Level 02 members and up (and also Level 01 by approval of the moderator team). You can find out how to attend over in this other post. Hope to see you there!