Posts by Elli

Those "intuitive apprehensions of the mind" is the imagined images, patterns, and motives that some epicureans like Philodemus, added after Epicurus era. This was all that food of philosophies by Hegel, Kant and Spinoza. The food that does not eliminate our hunger where is the false and where is the right.

They tried to connect the reality with the imagination of patterns. And the only they tried to do is to unite the rationalism with the empiricism,, but the result was that led the humanity in WARS.

From a latest work of my epicurean friend Dimitris Altas, that is a Dr. cardiologist.

Kant and Spinoza believed that starting from some fundamental principles such as mathematical axioms and logical principles along with innate ideas and only with "correct reason" one could acquire all possible Knowledge! In fact, Spinoza's rationality is absolute! He claims that human thought is capable of knowing God perfectly!

That is, it supports the logical approach of the metaphysical/supernatural. Nevertheless, Hegel argued that only with "correct reason" was it not only possible to understand human history, but also to predict its future course! This idea moved Karl Marx, who decided to use Hegel's Philosophy as a basis for his own theory, removing the metaphysical element with controversial results after maintaining its metaphysical determinism. Not even with Hegel's determinism did the shirt has been filled of what methodology we have to use for finding right conclusions. This shirt was still empty!

In the end, Immanuel Kant decided that if we found a way to combine Rationalism with Empiricism, there will be no end! But the unification of Empiricism with Rationalism seemed a bit like the unification of quantum mechanics with the theory of relativity! It may seem obvious to you, but in the field of Philosophy it is not! Correct calculus no longer had to be umbilical, but to analyze data from the experiences. But how does the raw data of the senses become experiences? Kant would have saved enough gray matter if he had been focused to the Epicurean Canon! Obviously, he did not do that! The menu may no longer have innate Ideas, but it had pre-installed innate molds, to which the mind adapted the raw data of the senses so that the right reason could process with them! He called the molds supervisions and categories in the context of a rather difficult and vague explanation with several metaphysical implications. Kant is considered the most important representative of German Philosophy who has always remained an Idealist, except Nietzsche.

With the Physics, the Ethics and above all with the usage of CANON/senses/feelings along with all of our observations that are testified in the reality with the phenomena as they proceed... we the epicureans of our era and in the 21st century, we say boldly :

"Tους θεούς ουδ' υπάρχειν λέγομεν".

And this means, we say that gods do not exist!

We do not need any image of Gods to be prudent, fair and honest, for living pleasantly. The PD 5 is clear.

The only we need is to elimante our painful feelings of loneliness, depression, and the overconsumption, for creating more friendly societies.

Religions, political, and eonomical ideologies do not unite us in our societies. Only friendship with our frank criticism, and knowledges that are based on the help/benefit of scienctific findings and all measured through senses and feelings.

My dear friend Bryan, good day.

Sorry, I have an objection for the above text by Philodemus, he tries to prove with a similarity with atoms and void the existence of gods and in the basis of "questions". This reminds me, the cunning of the methodology of dialectics by Socrates and Plato and specifically on the issue of science.

Please see the picture!

And a few words for Mr. Dawkins. I remember that a few years ago, I had made a post on FB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8hy8NxZvFY

If you would like watch in the above link a video at the Youtube and answer this question :
<<WHY WE ARE HERE>> ?
This was one of the main questions that is dominated in this video at the youtube of a debate among the scientist Mr. Richard Dawkins and a Catholic priest. The Catholic priest gave the same banal answer, which is to live virtuously in accordance to ten commandments by an almighty God that has been invented by the minds of some persons. Persons that were lived and still are living in different places and as they keep their own interests they also claiming that their God is the only absolute true God, who is under their interpretation of how to live in accordance of his absolute justice.

In this rhetorical question WHY WE ARE HERE ?? It is here also that we can understand that the whole point is missing. That outstanding scientist Mr. Dawkins has to read more and more philosophy and especially the Epicurean one. I urge him, with respect, to read Epicurus and Lucretius every night in his bed.

Because he has demonstrated here that he can't answer this question properly. He has demonstrated that the science exist only for the science itself. He has point out where is the huge gap. And the huge gap as a trap is when the science goes by itself without Philosophy.

Thus, he separated the science from ethics, and this happens in that point in which he agrees to say that the Darwinian theory of evolution is not suggested by him for placing us values or virtues on ΗΟW to live.
Wrong Mr. Dawkins, if you connect the Darwinian theory of evolution with ethics you will realize clearly, how the human beings had evolved and escpecially how they had survived. And you would see also that the most adaptive has survived in Nature. This means that the clever specie which can preserve its genes can survive in Nature. How the human beings had preserved their genes ? Where is their cleverness ? On making such kind of societies with such kind of contracts within the majority of the persons understand and agreed that the solidarity and the friendship among them is something that can preserve them in life, against wild animals, earthquakes, plagues, famines, floods, diseases etc. Our specie, the human being, has proved with historical evidences that when we made social agreements to not harm each other, it was something that is PLEASING us and making us living a happy life. Ηuman's life, which is infront of the eternity, has a duration of a nanosecond. And this duration of a time does not deserve to be wasted of endless rhetorical and meaningless questions which are leading to the infinity.

Why we are here, mr. Dawkins ? IMO the only proper response is this : Το fullfill our purpose, our end, our aim in life as set by the Nature and the evidences of evolution as occured by every individual person that is able to cooperate with others. And the human virtues, which are three or four in number, are THE MEANS for the achievement of this goal that is pleasure. Because if all the virtues would be connected with this goal of PLEASURE, EVERYBODY of US can live a pleasant, blissful and happy life. So simple is the response Mr. Dawkins.

By the way, Mr. Dawkins, here is something of Diogenis of Oinoanda inscription that may would help you to give in future the proper response infront of an audience :

<<Here is the point at issue between the other philosophers and the Epicureans. If we were both inquiring into, “what is the means of happiness?” and the other philosophers wanted to say, “the virtues,” (which would actually be true), it would not be necessary for us to take any other step than to agree with them.
But the issue is not, “what is the means of happiness?” The issue is, “what is happiness?” Or, in other words, “What is the ultimate goal of our nature?”
I say both now, and always, shouting out loudly, to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the highest end of life!
The virtues, which are turned upside down by other philosophers, who transfer the virtues from “the means” to “the end”, are in no way the end in themselves! The virtues are not ends in themselves, but only the means to the end that Nature has set for us!
This we affirm to be true in the strongest possible terms, and we take it as our starting point for how men should live.>>

For Lucretius is the blame as he confused Parmenides with Epicurus.

Nothing comes from nothing (Greek: οὐδὲν ἐξ οὐδενός; Latin: ex nihilo nihil fit) is a philosophical dictum first argued by Parmenides.

The Roman poet and philosopher Lucretius expressed this principle in his first book of De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things)

But by observing Nature and her laws. And this will lay
The warp out for us—her first principle: that nothing's brought
Forth by any supernatural power out of naught.
For certainly all men are in the clutches of a dread—
Beholding many things take place in heaven overhead
Or here on earth whose causes they can't fathom, they assign
The explanation for these happenings to powers divine.
Nothing can be made from nothing—once we see that's so,
Already we are on the way to what we want to know.

He then continues on discussing how matter is required to make matter and that objects cannot spring forth without reasonable cause.

For if things were created out of nothing, any breed
Could be born from any other; nothing would require a seed.
People could pop out of the sea, the scaly tribes arise
Out of the earth, and winged birds could hatch right from the skies.
Born willy-nilly, every animal, both wild and tame,
Would inhabit cultivated land and wilderness the same.
The same tree would not always grow the same fruit—what might bear
An apple one time, might, the next, produce a quince or pear.
Since there would be no generating particles, then neither
Would certain things arise from only a certain kind of mother.
But since in fact each species rises from specific seeds,
Each thing springs from the source that has the matter that it needs,
The primary particles, and comes into the boundaries
Of light, and that's the reason every thing cannot give rise
To every other thing, because there is a separate power
In distinct things.

Thank you very much Don. I very much appreciate that you did save my language, for which the english speaking claiming that is mysterious sounding and exotic!! Βut I do not misunderstand them, something similar was said by Lucretius, when he wondered how he would understand and how he could write in latin, about the dark meanings that are corresponded to the words of the Hellenes?

Silence in church

The letters of Paul, dated to the middle of the first century AD, were written to specific communities in response to particular questions or problems. Paul was in Ephesus around the year 56 when he received disquieting news regarding the church at Corinth. Factionalism had developed. At the fellowship meal some got drunk while others were left hungry. There seemed to be a preference for ecstatic prayer at the expense of works of charity, with a number of members all "speaking in tongues" at the same time. It was apparently reported to him that women were appearing at the assembly without the head covering customary in contemporary Greek society, and may have been arguing over their right to address the assembly. The fledgling community appeared to be in disorder.

Corinthians 14:33-35(NIV) states:

Quote

"As in all the congregations of the Lord’s people. Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

A few words about the quantum vacuum.

The quantum field theory proposed by modern physics forces us to abandon the classical distinction between vacuum and matter, especially since it has been shown that elementary particles can be born spontaneously from vacuum with the proper supply of energy. Emptiness is nothing, it is not non-being! Instead, it contains, potentially, an unlimited number of particles that are created and disappear non-stop. The void is actually a living void! The void has ceased to be considered the passive and non-participatory context of the play of natural phenomena and is recognized as a dynamic state of paramount importance.

I was surprised to find just yesterday that Epicurus in his Epistle to Herodotus refers to the void with the term "nature non palpate/untouched". It is indeed difficult to imagine how an ancient philosopher who knew nothing at all about quantum phenomena, thought of referring to the void as "nature", that is, something that exists and is obviously related to the other "nature of tangible things", even if it is not palpate/untouched!

The motion of particles in a world of probabilities.

Each particle can be described as a moving or stationary "wave packet", while the amplitude of a wave in a space over a period of time is related to the probability of finding the particle in that space at that time. Thus, two quantum particles that are ejected by the same device, under the same initial conditions, can make different paths and end up in two different places. Or two identical nuclei will split at very different times, or even into different particles.

Lucretius in "On the nature of things" De rerum natura: "… When atoms carry their own weight in a straight line down into space, at indefinite moments and in indefinite places, they deviate somewhat from their trajectory, only to the extent that you can say that the movement has changed their. "Without this deviation, everything would be directed like raindrops parallel to the three depths of the vacuum, and no contact, no collision would be made between the original elements, and so nature would not create anything ...".

Feynman: “A philosopher once said, "It is necessary for the very existence of science that the same conditions always produce the same results." Well, they don't!”

CONCLUSIONS

 Modern Physics has enriched our perceptions with many new concepts and has greatly deepened or differentiated the old ones. The world continues to be described by atoms, but also elementary particles and quanta, all of which have structure, quantum behavior and relativistic motion, dynamics and materiality.  

 The existence of discontinuity in matter is what allows the formation of structures in space. The diversity of the cosmos presupposes the existence of small material parts that in combination do the things we perceive. The ability to enumerate and combine building blocks is also the basis of mathematics, that is, the understanding and conception of the world on a more abstract level.   

Structures are not only in space, but they are also in time. An example of a spatially structured entity is a simple stone, but also an entire cave with stalactites and stalagmites. An example of a time-structured entity is a simple note, but also an entire symphonic music play. The objects of the world have at the same time spatial and temporal substance and structure, that is, they are living phenomena and they fill us with admiration!  

Reference 2

From the Book: The moment of quantum - Alfred Goldhaber (theoretical physics) Robert Crease (history and philosophy of science) - ROPI Publications, 2015

“What we need is a Lucretius who will be baptized in the source of Einstein, Schrödinger and Heisenberg, to compose a modern "De Rerum Natura" and to interpret the mystery and beauty that are inside and beyond the electron and space … »

Source: New York Times, 1930

An excerpt of a work entitled: “For the understanding of Nature on the scale of the microcosm”.

Tassos Liolios April 22, 2019

Professor of Department of Nuclear Physics and Elementary Particle Physics Department of Physics, and of Sciences in Aristotle University of Thessaloniki

https://www.physics.auth.gr/people/41

http://epicuros.net/new/241_-Gia-t…toy-mikrokosmoy

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus resisted the idea that the scientific experts of his day should be the ultimate authority on issues where no direct evidence was possible, and I think the same approach is valid today.

Cassius sorry, in the era of Epicurus there were not scientific experts, but astrologers, and charlatans. Only Aristotle had had a credit, but for Aristotle the purpose was the knowledges for the knowledges themselves and not to bring the knowledges in the real life with actions and on how we should live. Besides Aristotle used the methodology of dialectics. He did not leave behind his teacher Plato, and he spoke with frankness of speech to Plato, when Plato did not pass to Aristotle the leadership of his academia, but in one of his nephews, and then Aristotle has to establishe the Lyceum and the Peripatetic school.

Epicurus if was alive in our days first he would find FRIENDS, they will read all together many of the scientific papers on materialism, they will writting whole books and papers to help many of scientists for finding the obvious. He would strongly argue only this: that from Physiology i.e. all sciences that ALL are using till now the CANON, they have to be connected and with Ethics and with the goal of pleasure. This is the issue with many of the scienctists - not all - they do not know what is the true philosophy. Usually they discover it in old age, and when the issue on death is approaching.

Im really sorry but the communication/contact through a machine i.e. a computer or a telephone or a skype and without any camera, can't produce strong bonds of friendship and FEELINGS. The machines have no feelings and they do not produce feelings. It is just a tool and does not lead to the real goal.

Where the friendship is based on ? Where do you looking for the friendship? On the ideas and theories ? Sorry, the conversations on philosophical ideas only do not lead to the real goal.

From Physics: atoms repulshing, swerving, colliding for the creation of many Cosmi ====> to Canon:: hedonic calculus through senses, feelings and prolepsis===>to Ethics: common benefit/frankness of speech sharing knowledges and things with personal and non personal meetings, generosity, bravery.

The issue starts from Physics, is measured through the Canon and ends in Ethics, and it's: the creation of many Cosmi/friendships/communities/societies with real persons, as real as the atoms are !

Do you think that Epicurus established the Garden and maintained it as such, in the basis of theories only or mostly in trusted humans with blood and bones?

Why was the happenings of celebrations in every 20th and of birthdays?

What means exaclty the attached photo with the letter to Themista ?

Epicurus was clear in ES 78: The wisdom/knowledges is a mortal good, i.e. they will die within us and with us. Friendship is an immortal good.

ES 18. Remove sight, association, and contact and the passion of love/friendship is at an end.

fg. 457 Passion for true philosophy destroys every disturbing and troublesome desire

For hellenic language the words love/eros and friendship are synonyms.

For Epicurus the love for our philosophy is an erotic emotion!

E.S. 66 We support our friends not by mourning but by caring for them.

Sorry, but you will fall in the same trap of my fellow Greeks here, who they endlessly spoke through emails about the ideas, and in the end, the only they left as real friends was not even an idea.

Epicurean philosophy is measured and applied only with the experiences/actions in the real life. Please do not leave it in laboratory conditions or in the hands of academics.

Would the topics for a live conference be: 

(1) the pleasure of music (2) the pleasure of smooth motion, (3) the pleasure of food, and (4) why pleasure is more important than logic and reason? 

Or would the topics be: 

(1) the universe was not created by a supernatural god but is eternal, (2) the universe is infinite in space so there is no room for a supernatural god, (3) matter cannot be divided forever, and the elemental particles are the source of stability and repeatability, (4) he who says he knows nothing is a trifler and perverse, and (5) Epicurean logic and reasoning are based on evidence from the components of the canon, which is why it is the best kind. 

 The laconic answer by Epicurus that excludes all the dilemmas of "either or" by Aristotle is : "I say, BOTH of the above"! 

Αnd from Epicurus letter to Pythocles and why I insist to be carefull with the usage of hellenic words. 

"μάλιστα δὲ σεαυτὸν ἀπόδος εἰς τὴν τῶν ἀρχῶν" 

And most of all give yourself up to the study (την των αρχών) i.e. of the first principles....

what Epicurus really means with of our "first principles" that "nothing comes from nothing" and the things akin to them? 

He could mean, most of all give yourself up to the study of the axiom/principle of the law of conservation of energy and the theory of the special relativity showed that mass is related to energy and vice versa by E = mc2 i.e. the mass–energy as a whole is conserved. 

<< καὶ ἀπειρίας καὶ τῶν συγγενῶν τούτοις θεωρίαν>> 

and of the "infinity" and of the things akin to them... 

The greek word "απειρία" (infinity) does not mean actually only something related with the eternity (time) and without boundaries (space). It means also of something that is without (a) +(experience) [α+πειρία] i.e. something that is not testified by the experience through the senses/feelings/facts/space time. 

And if something that is not testified by the experience it's similar to the nothing. Outside the bing bang and outside the facts of the space time was the nothing. 

Please, do not make so much efforts to understand what Epicurus meant. The 93% of what Epicurus said along with Leucippus, Democritus and Lucretius are proved by the science day by day. The terminology may change but the principles are the same how the Cosmos/Cosmi are creating.

Please, my friends keep patient on waiting what would be the theory that will testified by the experiments, as I would like to give you a friendly admonition : Please first organize among you personal meetings to be known better to each other and be saved by each other, and leave as a second choice the conferences and the symposia in public. Because if you want to give a credence to my experience of the symposia in Athens, that friends of Thessaloniki and Athens met in person once a year... The results of all the conferences and the symposia in public became a whole mess. 

Pleasure is the goal! 

Thanks

Heraclitus answered to Parmenides with these two words : “μεταβάλλον αναπαύεται» (metavalon anapavetai) i.e. “in rest is changing”, and that means we may perceive the environment/the Universe as to be static but in the same time it evolves i.e. it is changing/moving.

No, please do not mention anything about Parmenides to Elayne, she will be upset and we will confront and some other troubles. Parmenides was the great fiesta of idealists Plato and Socrates. All of their thoughts were inspired from him. Parmenids is against Epicurus, and sometimes some persons confuse Epicurus ideas with him. Parmenides conclusions are against to the manifold way of epicurean canon the swerve and the experiences that are testified by our senses and feelings.

Since Parmenides said this : All reality is one thing, change is impossible, and existence is timeless, uniform, and necessary. In the way to form an opinion, he explains the world of appearances, in which one's sensory faculties lead to conceptions which are false and deceitful.

Hi friends. Hello Bryan. There is an anecdotal story of what people were thinking about the Ionian natural philosophers, as also they called, by adacemics, pre-socratics.

As an exaggeration, people said that those philosophers were famous to observe and hearing even the coolness dripping on a leaf, and after their observations they drew some of their own conclusions.

There is an anecdotal story with Democritus that will make Matt to smile.

One morning, they say, Democritus met a girl that she lived in his neighborhood, so he greeted her, saying:

- Good morning Girl.

One night, the same girl, had intercourse with a man.

And when Democritus met her the next morning, he kindly greeted her saying:

- Good morning woman.

Quote from Don

- Paian Anax! - I think he may be on to something.

Hi Don,
With the "Paian Anax" you remind me a post with a photo that I've posted on FB, last year.

Diogenes Laertius, in the biography of Epicurus, mentions a small fragment of a letter by Epicurus to Leontion who was the wife of Metrodorus. However, and as I read by some translators, in greek language, they make the mistake to translate that Epicurus calls Leontion as "healer and king". No, this is not right. Epicurus here mentions two of the titles that the God Apollon had in Ancient Greece.

Apóllôn as PAEAN Paián - (Gr. Παιάν, pronounced pay-AHN.) means the physician, healer, savior. Who that cares and helps, and, as such, he is the principal deity of Medicine and Healing for which he is called Paián (Paean, Παιάν). The Kǽndavros (Centaur, Κένταυρος) Kheirôn (Chirôn, Χείρων) taught medicine to Asklipiós (Asclepius, Ἀσκληπιός), who is the son of Apóllôn and the most renowned physician after him. Asklipiós in turn, taught his own sons and daughters medicine, a whole host of healers. Apóllôn is mentioned first in the Hippocratic Oath:

"I swear by Apollon the physician, and Asclepius (Ἀσκληπιός), and Health (Ὑγεία), and All-heal (Πανάκεια), and all the Gods and Goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath..."

Apóllôn as Anax : - (Gr. Ἄναξ, ΑΝΑΞ) it means the king. He is the ambassador of the Olympian Gods of the Solar System and as such, he is on the level of Zeus and thereby worthy the title as Ánax. Apóllôn is also sympárædros (συμπάρεδρος) to Zeus meaning that they hold the throne jointly. The Solar Powers are represented by the two intertwined snakes of the Kîrýkeion (Caduceus or Cêryceion, Κηρύκειον, one of the major symbols of Zeus) which Apollon gives to the other god named as Hermês (Ἑρμῆς).

However, the symbol of the "caduceus" as it is used by the physicians in the USA is wrong. The link between the caduceus of Hermes (Mercury) and medicine seems to have arisen by the seventh century A.D. when Hermes had come to be linked with alchemy. Alchemists were referred to as the sons of Hermes, as Hermetists or Hermeticists and as "practitioners of the hermetic arts". There are clear occult associations with the caduceus.

The caduceus was the magic staff of Hermes (Mercury), the god of commerce, eloquence, invention, travel and theft, and so was a symbol of heralds and commerce, not medicine. The words caducity & caducous imply temporality, perishableness, and senility, while the medical profession espouses renewal, vitality, and health.

The right symbol of Asclepius (in the attached picture) and as it used by greek physicians is with a snake that is entwined on a rod, as well as, the pharmacists that have a snake entwined on a cup.

Wow, I remember this kind and wise person with the name Bryan, and I missed him so much !

Good day, my friend Bryan, I'm so glad you came here !

If Epicurus lived today with the tools of technology and all the goods he had in his era.... since for writing the papers/papyri and all the works that had to be done in his Garden, it was a need to have four slaves, who treated them with respect, as we read in the sources. Thus, if it could be a way to visit us in our era, he would consider us that we are living as profligates.

If we take an accusation by Plato and the hypocritical idealists, for being always apologized in their foolishnes what means PLEASURE, we will fall in the same trap with that person who thinks that is an Epicurean, as he is a member in a Garden in Greece, and in every meeting and in every comment he makes and on FB, he is repeating countiniously:

"When we say pleasure we do not mean the pleasures of the profligates".

And one day I asked him :

- And what do we mean when we say pleasure ?

We mean ataraxia and aponia.

- What is ataraxia and aponia ?

To not have the pleasures of the profligates!

- Who are the profligates ?

Those people that over pass the limits of pleasure and they feel pain.

- An example? I asked him.

They are those that Epicurus describes in his LTM, that are eating fish, have sexual intercourse with many women and boys, making parties etc.

- Really eh? I said, except the sexual intercourse that you do not have with many women as you're being married now (but I do not take an oath for this HA )... you do not eat fish, you do not drive a luxurious car, you do not have an elegant office in your work, you do not have an elegant house, you do not make parties with your family and friends.. nothing eh? You only eat bread, drinking water inside a cave. Sorry, this is hypocricy and if Epicurus lived today, he would say to you and to all of us, that wenare living as profligates ! HA

In the end I reminded him the PD 3 (that only Cassius made me clear to notice that in the past), and then I told him also :

- who is that person that he would judge telling me what provokes to me pleasure and what pain ? Only my prudence that is all based on my experiences measured by my senses and my feelings. Besides, we have and our trusted doctors, not the charlatans, that when we feel pain in body and soul, we visit them for offering to us their advice that is based on discoveries and the experiences of the science of Medicine that is the Art of all arts.

And now, I would like to ask Lucretius: Do you mean that a big woman of superior form is loved through divine effect and the arrows of Venus ? LOL

Cassius, literally Epicurus said : Meditate on these things, as I wrote above to you, with yourself and a companion like yourself so then, you will be living like a god among MEN. For a man who lives among immortal blessings is not like unto a mortal being.

The question is what is the main immortal blessing for Epicurus?

Here it is : ES 78. The brave (false translation is that Epicurus said noble) he said: The brave soul occupies itself with wisdom and friendship; of these the one is a mortal good, the other immortal.

Lucretius was an epicurean poet, and wrote a masterpiece, of course. Lucretius gave a name to the whole Nature as Venus and that's all. Greeks called her as Gaia and not Aphrodite actually. Lucretius for Venus and on the issue on love, somewhere else wrote and this :

"And NOT through divine effect and the arrows of Venus it sometimes happens that a little woman of inferior form is loved. For sometimes a woman herself brings it about through her own actions and compliant ways (morigerique modis) and neatly groomed body that she easily accustoms you to live your life with her. For the rest, familiarity creates love (amor); for that which is beaten by a frequent blow, however lightly, yet after long lapse of time is conquered and gives way. Do you not also see that drops of water falling onto rocks after long lapse of time beat through the rocks ? (DRN 4.1278-1287).

Good day to all of you, and happy new year.

If you permit me, I would like to add some of my thoughts in this discussion that became so complicated.

First of all I agree with all the thoughts and comments as they have been written clearly by Elayne.

I would like to begin with this : when the embryo in an uterus does not evolve with the right divisions of chromosomes, in many many cases Nature vomits it with a misscariage. So, to hold and see a baby is not an issue to be a pediatrician only, it is an issue to think how much chance is needed to be born and seeing the beauty that is called Cosmos. And this is the awe that is also connecting with the "gratidute". Gratidue to the Nature, gratidute to you grand parents, gratidute to your parents (that are your first gods) IF the social enviroment that they have created for you, along with their pains and pleasures, permits YOU to be and living free and self-sufficient for the natural and your necessary...and then all the others.

However, IF any image as a knowledge of gods has been envolved for leading people to division and strife... which is the general picture, till now actually... so, then, Nature vomits it with a misscariage that Epicurus called it as "ypolepsis" and not "prolepsis". Prolepsis must always be judged by the senses and feelings, if NOT they become "ypolepsis" and that means empty assuptions, vague opinions, vague speculations and empty beliefs... so then, Nature vomits all of them in the black hole with ideas by Plato and the worse is when it vomits them, here on earth with what we called it as "wars".

Moreover, IF Epicurus would live in our days, he would tell us as a wise grandppa :

<<Hey people 2.400 years have passed from the era that I lived...so many discoveries you have made, so many painful and pleasant situations and emotions you have lived and felt... and you are still waiting for so long to conclude with a definite answer on the question IF there is any god? LOL

What the heck, where did you see, hear, touch, smell any god except the temples, the icons, and the statues that all were made with the money of the priesthood in colaboration with politicians just for the cunning purpose to keep you as subortinated slaves?

Did you ever realize that when I said the word "gods" I meant YOU, the epicureans, who are deepening inside their hearts our theories, making them in practice, and while they use inconsistency and AS ONE the Physiology (all sciences), the methodology of the Canon, and the Ethics for making right conclusions for living your unique life in pleasure?

In this way, I meant that you can live like gods, BUT- and still there is a huge BUT - the fact of the reality, till now, and as I mentioned this in my epistle to Meneoceus, is that you are living among MEN and what men ? Orangutans, chimpanzees, monkeys, and baboons. LOL

When you would be able to live among gods, then we will talk about this again. Maybe there is a definite conclusion for living like gods among gods is an utopia. Utopia means that there is not any place in this planet Earth that you can live like gods among gods. Not still now. Hope so, but the Hope, as that myth says, it was the LAST THING in the Pandoras box.

And finaly Epicurus would say something to Nietsche :

Dear colleague on philosophy : all of your life you have searched for the Hyperman...but First thing first, for us, is to search on how a man could become and living like a man, and then we will search talking about the hyperman>>. LOL

Thanks