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There has been an enormous amount of discussion in the past in regard to the theological aspects of Epicurean philosophy. There is, as of this moment, no consensus of opinion in regard to that subject and it continues to remain inconclusive. However, this post is not focused on that generalized subject, but rather on the gods of Ancient Greece and Rome and the use of them specifically as "role models" either aesthetically or in a practical manner for an Epicurean. The gods of Ancient Greece and …

(Quote from Cassius) Cassius, to answer your question in regard to how I would visualize the highest "deified" good in life from an Epicurean perspective, I would say that it would have to correspond entirely to the description of the Epicurean specific deities. Anything short of that might as well be nothing at all. This issue of visualizing the Epicurean gods becomes immensely difficult as they are described in a very specific way. This could be a subject of discussion for another thread entir…

As always the reason for this post is to keep everyone talking and thinking. I, as you know, am not a believer in the Epicurean deities as they are described. I believe they are purely idealistic. But my point here was to refine this argument further to examine whether it is wise to use the images of the debauched Greco-Roman deities, since they certainly do not represent the Epicurean ideal. It's like the expression "having (keeping) my cake and eat it too." If you argue against other deities a…

Hi Elli, Thank you for your detailed response. However, I still maintain my objections to the ancient polytheistic religion on the grounds that they violate PD.1. In your response you are equating Eros/Zeus with a mythological reasoning. Basically that Zeus is not a real deity that has any consequence on mortal lives, but rather he is an allegorical idealistic figure of human imagination. He is an imaginary being that is the product of the mind and desires of poets. In this scenario neither Zeus…

(Quote from elli) "Sorry Matt, but you did not read carefully whatever I wrote above." Actually Elli, I read it very closely, and have been reading your responses to these questions in the past extremely closely (for some time now). I've been trying to understand what you and others actually believe in regard to this subject. Please do not think that I am confused by anything that you or others have said. I have a full and clear understanding of this subject.

I can tell you (from my personal observations) that all modern adherents of Epicureanism have varying views of the gods. Some don't believe. In fact they don't believe in any gods. Some say Epicurus was just mistaken and take the position of atheism. Some people truly believe they exist and maintain metaphysical formulas and arguments to uphold these beliefs. Others appear to take a rhetorical approach. This approach has less to do with actual knowledge or belief, but more to the effect of attem…

Nate would be the man for that for sure.

I think it would be an interesting artistic exercise to attempt to create an "Epicurean Deity" based solely on the philosophical description, devoid of the polytheistic accretions.

That way you avoid being associated with something that perhaps does not represent your philosophical convictions.

I think the general concept behind Hindu Iconography has a great potential to help in creating an image. The Hindus have mastered that art form.

I would definitely think you'd want to incorporate the imagery from On the Nature of The Gods.

I will be very interested to observe the results if that project gets off the ground because it would illustrate more clearly what the Epicurean deities would have to be like according to the philosophical descriptions. Like I've said previously, I don't know if its even possible to do this given their very particular description, but I think it would be interesting to see. You'll then be able to compare them against the old Greco-Roman depictions to see where they diverge. Then you can pit them…

Ok so I’ve been meditating on this for the last couple of days and I’ve come to a conclusion... I agree with Nate that all anyone would be doing trying to capture an “ideal” Epicurean deity in canvas would be just reinventing the wheel. From a universal point of view, it’s just not going to work or even be meaningful to the philosophy. So here’s what I’ve come up with... I believe that Epicurean philosophy (in modern times) owes a serious explanation for their gods. My personal opinion is that t…

Yep! That’s what I was trying to do! Haha I knew you would object, I will sustain it so as to not fall into a spiraling wormhole of theology ad nauseam tonight... for everyone’s wellbeing and sanity.Haha

Hi Clive, I wanted to swing by and welcome you. I’ve been taking a short hiatus but I would enjoy discussing your thoughts further when I return. If you read further up the thread you’ll see that there are three positions modern Epicureans take on the gods issue. Two of which posit that the gods do not actually exist and one (the Traditional view) that they fundamentally do exist. This discussion is primarily concerned with the Epicurean conception of deity and whether the gods, as specifically …

I have been interested in Epicurean Theology for the last few years. I’ve argued that it can be a linchpin aspect of the philosophy if it is examined very, very closely and carefully. But I’m an oddball of the group. Once again, welcome!

Yes indeed, Lucretius does open his work with a hymn honoring Venus. There is no question that the ancient Epicureans did in fact have reverence for the ancient Roman and Hellenic deities, at the very least in some allegorical or poetic sense. Basically that the deities represented forces of nature or human emotion. Obviously an allegorical god is not the same thing as a real “atomic” god. The issue is that Epicurus himself posits that the gods are in fact real. Going as far to give them particu…

And of course I respect your positions on all points Cassius. As always. ?

This is topic has been debated ad infinitum especially among the core members here. My counter views represent those who criticized Epicurus on this subject (both pagan and Christian). Though the subject is endlessly discussed with no reconciliation, It represents an important critical analysis of a very important aspect of the philosophy. If anything it lends itself to a modern version or continuation of Cicero’s dialogue.

Hi Oscar, You are correct Epicurus did not posit personal gods, but he did posit that his gods were real. The problem is that he asserts their reality without evidence of any kind. Ultimately that would be a form of idealism. Like I said before, a person has to justify their position on this given the evidence and testimony. I personally consider it a lie or fabrication if he presented something to be true without evidence. Especially if he knowingly presented this while disbelieving it. That wo…