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(Quote from Cassius) I know you bring this up on occasion, but I can never remember the textual reference. Where is that?

(Quote from Cassius) Hmm... I've seen other translations and the Latin and I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation as that text endorsing suicide as a solution albeit in the extreme. I'll create another thread possibly so this thread isn't hijacked.

LOL! Just to check myself: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/albeit Yeah, I'm still not sure I agree, but this'll have to wait until later. I have thoughts.

Cassius: Would you want to move posts #6 to the end to a new thread so we don't hijack the original intent of this thread?

Cicero, De Finibus 1.15.49 ut enim mortis metu omnis quietae vitae status perturbatur, et ut succumbere doloribus eosque humili animo inbecilloque ferre miserum est, ob eamque debilitatem animi multi parentes, multi amicos, non nulli patriam, plerique autem se ipsos penitus perdiderunt, sic robustus animus et excelsus omni est liber cura et angore, cum et mortem contemnit, qua qui affecti sunt in eadem causa sunt, qua ante quam nati, et ad dolores ita paratus est, ut meminerit maximos morte fini…

(Quote from ccarruth42) Exactly, ccarruth42 ! There's also VS75: This saying is utterly ungrateful for the good things one has achieved: provide for the end of a long life. εἰς τὰ παρῳχηκότα ἀγαθὰ ἀχάριστος φωνὴ ἡ λέγουσα· τέλος ὅρα μακροῦ βίου. Saint-Andre has a note to this translation: The force of ὅρα here might be "provide for" (as I have translated it), "beware", or even just "look to"; the overall sense is that preparing for a supposed afterlife shows a lack of appreciation for the good t…

(Quote from Cassius) Again, I bring up the example of Epicurus's death. He *knew* he was going to die, and yet he still didn't choose to die voluntarily, even though there was no way around it. (Quote from Cassius) Hmm... not sure if I agree here either. That seems a little convoluted in being a friend to yourself so you'll die for you? I think this is an apple and oranges situation here.

(Quote from Cassius) Oh, I don't think that at all. Even the sage will cry out on the rack. But leaving life "animo aequo" just means: aequo (aequiore, aequissimo) animo, with even mind, with equanimity, patiently, calmly, quietly, with forbearance If you're experiencing that much intolerable pain, you know what's coming. Scream, wail, cry out in pain, but don't rail against. Don't curse the gods. Don't complain about regrets in your life. If you *know* you're dying (which is what that kind of p…

(Quote from Cassius) Well, he says ""On this blissful day, which is also the last of my life" That sounds pretty irreversible and terminal to me.

There's also the section on death in the Letter to Menoikeus (emphasis added): (Quote from Epicurus's Letter to Menoikeus) To me, all those underlined parts are saying the same this as leaving life "animo aequo."

(Quote from Cassius) I'm not sure I'm saying that, especially in light of modern medical intervention that can continue physical existence but not provide quality of life. Right now, I'm neither saying nor not saying suicide is never an option for an Epicurean. I (think) I am saying I'm not seeing any advocacy for suicide as a viable option in any of the texts. (Quote from Cassius) I think that's an apple and orange argument. To me, the reason you would "die for a friend" is that if the friend d…

I want to state here that this discussion of suicide is not meant to be casual or flippant. It is an exploration of the ancient texts. I am sure all of us would encourage anyone dealing with thoughts of suicide to reach out for help to a friend or to a medical professional or to the national 988 number. Today in the US, “988” is the three-digit, nationwide phone number to connect directly to the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline as established by the FCC. https://www.fcc.gov/988-suicide-and-crisis…

Here is a paper that cites the one you referenced (that one behind the paywall) https://pdfs.semanticscholar.o…7873845afa32fd0385936.pdf

(Quote from Cassius) As I mentioned, I don't see that line as saying what you're interpreting it as. I see it as having no more concern for the approach of imminent death as one would in "exiting the play when it has ceased to please us." The emphasis is not on an active walking out or actively killing oneself that's the metaphor. It's accepting one's imminent death "animo aequo" with no more concern than walking out of a play that has no pleasure anymore. "Torquatus" acknowledges that there is …

(Quote from Cassius via Epicurus Wiki) In principle, I think I agree with that last paragraph, but, for me, it would be an extrapolation from the existing texts and not based on any I've read (in this thread or outside of it). Especially in the letter to Menoikeus, Epicurus seems to come down hard on those who talk about exiting life as quickly as possible. He doesn't appear to add any qualifiers. The end of life situations I read are about living life in a manner that will allow you to accept i…

(Quote from Cassius) Oh, it's easy for me, too. If I ever encounter that situation in my life, what will I do? I don't know, but I'm not discounting the option out of hand. Consider a diagnosis of Alzheimer's or a degenerative physical disease where everything, one's mind and one's control over one's body are slowly, inexorably taken from you accompanied by constant pain. Would you - would I - choose to end our suffering? This also brings up the difference between "suffering" and "pain." They're…

(Quote from ccarruth42) Exactly! Well put. That's one of the exact scenarios I was thinking of!

(Quote from Cassius) On the actual topic of suicide, I would agree. I think we both understand someone's (maybe even my own) decision to take that step in the extreme of pain and suffering. I think that's a humane and humble position to have. That said, I don't necessarily think that's a position that Epicurus or the Epicurean school would take. I don't see textual evidence of that position. We can rationalize that they might have taken it, but I'm not seeing textual evidence of it. (Quote from …

(Quote from Pacatus) And...Right there. I'd ask what "Epicurean teachings" are you trying to apply to better your life. If you're trying to apply Epicurus's teachings to better your life, that makes you an Epicurean as opposed to a Christian or Stoic or something else. I'll be the first to say unequivocally that there is no "apostolic" Epicurean lineage, there is no Epicurean scholarch determining Orthodox practices. But, if someone wants to think of themselves as an Epicurean and part of a larg…

VS74 In a scholarly dispute, he who loses gains more because he has learned something. ἐν φιλολόγῳ συζητήσει πλεῖον ἤνυσεν ὁ ἡττηθεὶς καθʼ ὃ προσέμαθεν. I'm not saying I "lost" but those references are great! I was unaware of them. I'm still not entirely convinced by the Torquatus text, but I'm willing to entertain the possibility now. And the others are excellent. Thanks!!!