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(Quote from smoothiekiwi) Great question SmoothieKiwi and something we ought to discuss at length. I has been my view in trying to compare Epicurus to Aristotle that Aristotle's "golden mean" argument is not helpful in the least, and is an extension of his belief in categories that are artificial and built on abstact logic not tied to reality. How does one know where the 'Extremes" are in order to interpolate a middle? To me what is too much, too little, and just right seems to me to be totally …

I agree with Nate's application of the mean issue to pleasure. However in addition to that I think there is something more, maybe though just because I have a superficial knowledge of how people talk about a "golden mean." Superficially, I gather the golden mean is used as a rule of thumb (or logic) postulating that there are always two extremes, and that there is always a "best" that lies in an exact middle ground between the two. I am sure that is oversimplifying the issue but I do gather that…

"Well, thats exactly the point Aristotle makes- that there's no absolute virtue, because everything is dependent on..." Did you mean Aristotle there, or Epicurus?

(Quote from smoothiekiwi) Thats a good question that we will have to one day figure out. Do you have a reference that you were thinking of, or anything in particular? The only thing that I am aware of that may be applicable is that supposedly Aristotle transferred Plato's "ideas" from an external existence I may realm beyond the reach of the senses to an "intrinsic" or "essentialist" existence inside the object under consideration (things that appear yellow have an essence of yellow in them). Bu…

"Even so, I don't find any fault in the idea that the virtue is the balance between two excesses; probably Epicurus would've agreed to that. So why not pleasure as well?" I would say that this points out the problem and that Epicurus would not agree. Pleasure is a feeling that nature gives us as a canonical perception. We don't feel pain according to a set formula, and Aristotle is suggesting that there are extremes which can be identified prior to circumstances and experience, and these extreme…

Thank you! I think producing a table like that is very helpful for illustrating that all these are "labels" for which would have to have some way of measuring and identifying them precisely in order to use them. Lacking that, they all reduce - to me - to nothing more than "too much" "just right" and "too little" - isn't that a nursery story of some kind about some bears? https://americanliterature.com…locks-and-the-three-bears "And then she went to the porridge of the Little Wee Bear, and tasted…

(Quote from smoothiekiwi) I guess what you mean here is that you simply pursued whatever you found pleasing, without regard to ultimate consequences, so you were ignoring Epicurus' clear statement to look to the ultimate result? If that's what you mean, then ultimately concluding Epicurus was right did not need to be tied to an understanding of dopamine or any other detailed science that was not available to him. Do I misunderstand your reasoning and how you reached your conclusion?

Well I am not sure we need to pursue it, but what I was trying to focus in on is why what you stated led you to doubt Epicureanism.....

The "Summum Bonum" aspect of this thread has been moved here: From The "Golden Mean" to tbe Summum Bonum - Proper Frames of Reference?