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(Quote from Cassius - Admin Note) (Quote from Bryan) I address that elsewhere in my translation commentary, but, briefly, even if that's the course taken, I would still stand by something like "those (pleasures) stuck in the enjoyment of (only) those things from outside ourselves." My take is that this is a direct swipe at the Cyrenaics.

(Quote from Cassius) Agreed. I maintain (and I think we agree) that activity can be undertaken with a calm, tranquil mind. For example, if I ever found myself in a foxhole, I would want a commanding officer who approached the mission with a clear eye and calm mind rather than some screaming, yelling lieutenant.

Kalosyni Thanks for the thoughts. From my perspective: The pleasure derived from the activity of eating is always kinetic. The pleasure derived from the anticipation of eating or the recollection of eating is always katastematic.

(Quote from Godfrey) How? And I realize typing that as a one word question *looks* combative or defensive. It's not meant to be. I'm just curious to hear your thinking behind how you'd characterize the anticipation or recollection as kinetic. I'm getting my train of thought from Farrington's The Faith of Epicurus:

As a further explanation of my perspective: Katastematic is derived from καθιστημι (kathistēmi) which, among its many definitions, is "bring into a certain state; come into a certain state, become" LSJ references PD13 specifically. It is useless to be safe from other people while retaining suspicions about what is above and below the earth and in general about the infinite unknown. οὐθὲν ὄφελος ἦν τὴν κατὰ ἀνθρώπους ἀσφάλειαν παρασκευάζεσθαι τῶν ἄνωθεν ὑπόπτων καθεστώτων καὶ τῶν ὑπὸ γῆς καὶ ἁπλῶ…

Good questions, Cassius. I'll have to dig into Farrington... But, in all honesty, I agree with him because he agrees with my interpretation not the other way around. I've never been overly enamored of G&T's interpretation anyway IF I remember it correctly.

(Quote from Cassius) there's something to be said for "clear and understandable"

FWIW... RE: Do Pigs Value Katastematic Pleasure? ( Summer 2022 K / K Discussion)

(Quote from Little Rocker) LOL! Well, that hasn't stopped us before! Pleasure appears to be a "feeling," since it is canonically defined as one of the two feelings of the canon. Is "feeling" a sensation? I would have to say yes, in the sense that every feeling is a sensation in the sense of PD2, but interestingly, Saint-Andre doesn't use sensation but awareness there: Death is nothing to us; for what has disintegrated lacks awareness, and what lacks awareness is nothing to us. We are *aware* whe…

(Quote from Godfrey) I do think "homeostatis" is helpful, but... I've come to understand that the concept of "homeostasis" has been somewhat replaced by "allostasis." Ex.: "Clarifying the Roles of Homeostasis and Allostasis in Physiological Regulation" (2014) BUT when I talk (colloquially) about "homeostasis," I'm going to say that I mean an awareness of the well functioning of the body and mind accompanied by a state of satisfaction and contentment. *That* I think is helpful, and what I believe…

I return to this section of Diogenes Laertius (10.136) over and over again when this topic comes up: (Quote) [136] He (Epicurus) differs from the Cyrenaics with regard to pleasure (περὶ τῆς ἡδονῆς). They do not include under the term the pleasure which is a state of rest (τὴν καταστηματικὴν - tes katastematiken), but only that which consists in motion (ἐν κινήσει - en kinesei). Epicurus admits both (i.e., katastematiken and en kinesei); also pleasure of mind as well as of body (ψυχῆς καὶ σώματος…

I think TauPhi is onto something here with this line of thinking. My suggestion would just be to expand beyond dopamine when we consider the parallels between ancient katastematic/kinetic categories and modern neuroscience, and I do believe there are parallels. Maybe not one to one correspondence since Epicurus had no access to the research we have, but I feel his observations and intuition were ahead of their time. Interesting articles/papers. The NLM ones are waaay into the weeds and I haven't…

(Quote from Godfrey) Agreed! (Quote from Godfrey) Agreed!! And well put, Godfrey. (Quote from Godfrey) Again, well put. If I may add, our brains are what we have to "monitor our levels of the various chemicals." Our feelings and sensations (including interoception) are how we experience that monitoring. And as Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett points out, that monitoring and prediction function is the main job of our brains... that whole reasoning thing comes along for the ride later on as I understand i…

(I realize this thread has strayed waaaaay off the original topic but this is a good conversation, so I'll let Cassius decide if it needs to be branched off or not) In thinking about this a little more... We always have to remember not to confuse desires with feelings. I don't think we're doing that here, but just putting that notice up again. It also seems to me that ataraxia ((tranquility), aponia* (see footnote), chara, (joy) and euphrosyne (delight) could be described as *emotions* that is h…

Okay, further thoughts... Epicurus likes his parallel constructions (ex., his "never too old... never too young..." sections in Menoikeus), so how would those (conveniently) four feelings of pleasure line up ... extrapolating from my thoughts above in post 128: "Feeling"Pleasure Category ValenceArousal"Source" AtaraxiaKatastematicPositiveLowMental Source (Internal Stimuli); Not Observable AponiaKatastematicPositiveLowBodily Source (Internal Stimuli); Not Observable KharaKineticPositiveHighMental…

(Quote from Cassius) Maybe back at post 100?? It seems to me we're diving into katastematic and kinetic and modern neuroscience??

Godfrey , I can always rely on you for insightful responses and thoughtful posts! Great appreciated! Let me think about a few of your points. Just for my own putting things in order... (Quote from Godfrey) Hmmm.... I'm going to have to think about that. If I understand you correctly, you're saying katastematic pleasure has a longer "shelf life" whereas kinetic pleasures are of (relatively) shorter duration? To break down some of your examples: (Quote from Godfrey (edited, with notes from Don)) …

(Quote from Cassius) That's exactly the reason I'm not ready to embrace that suggestion just yet.

(Quote from Godfrey) I like that! From now on, I will no longer cogitate or "meditate on these things," I'm going to "percolate on these things." (Quote from Godfrey) Yes, I agree with the following addenda: I think this line gets to the heart of Epicurus's recognizing these two categories of pleasure... and his and others saying we can have more confidence in the katastematic pleaasure. There's not only the "state" of feeling katastematic it is also the "stability" of katastematic pleasure. We …

I like TauPhi 's post above (No. 39) because it gets at again how we co-exist with two very real perspectives: At our most basic, we exist as atoms and void. There's no getting around that. That is true. However, we don't experience our existence *as atoms and void* (or as interactions of chemicals). We experience our lives at the level of feelings and sensations. That is ALSO true. Both can be true at the same time and neither need override the other. I hope I've characterized TauPhi's points c…