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It was great pleasure reading your exchange (all of you) but while you are focusing on ciceros interpretation and critique, which is in itself important, you fail to take into consideration central epicurean text about ethics. And in light of these passages katastematic\kinetic distinction should be debated. Even wenham seems to make the same mistake when he rushes to ciceros interpretation without introduction based on the letter. From letter to menoeceus: (Quote) And later he adds: (Quote) Yes…

Absence of pain or freedom from pain or health of the body means what it sounds. The same thing in modern and ancient context. Who understands this is unimpressed by arguments in cicero. For epicurus it was full context. You can ask me to describe whiteness of the snow i can only point to something white and say: "like this". We had this discussion. Do you remember when you was in pain? I am assuming that you do. But now you are not? Ok then compare one state with the other and you find what you…

I have hope that there is a way to make you see the light in this issue. Or feel the heat.

Epicurus precisely say and let me quote (Quote) So please find and let us know those fragments that will enlighten us. Or let be enlighten by us by pointing to you what is evident to everybody.

Evident to everybody who can detach evidence from opinion. Sensation from judgement. Etc.

I do not think than cicero was bright guy. Or maybe that no matter as bright he could have been his republican patriotism made him blind.

Quote from torquatus that corroborates Epicurus exposition in menoceus (Quote)

Ad1. It kind of does indicate this. We can paraphrase torquatus and say that a positively agreeable perception of the senses is not the kind of pleasure that we pursue alone. Epicurus warns about this in pd10. if we would pursue this kind of p!easures alone then we would not only loose the greatest pleasure but also those pleasures will be spoiled by fear that one day we will loose them and sickness or addiction or boredom caused by not knowing limits of our desires. Look at pd10 and menoceus ag…

Pd3 yes it is limit of quantity or magnitude. The point where pleasure is at its highest or greatest. The other pleasures that you are speaking of are seasoning of this state. Not the essence of it.

First. I urge you not to forget what epicurus says explicitly about absence of pain (or fredom from pain or removal of pain or health of body since those expressions points to the same thing). (Quote) Secondly. What do you mean by pleasure as is ordinary felt? Please give me examples.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. From absence of essential part of epicurean doctrine in Lucian you cannot infer the absence of that doctrine in whole epicureanism. And argument in cicero is supported by letter to menoeceus.

Torquatus is not not agreeing with epicurus. He and other epicureans thought that philosophy should be elaborated and developed further. I have no opinion on this subject right now but it wery well maybe true that at time of epicurus there was no need for logical arguement and in time of philodemus and torquatus such arguement was needed. Evolution of doctrine is natural thing. And it was propably unavoidable since in hellenistic and roman times philosophy became part of education, there was mor…

i am not implying this at all. What i said and let me be clear on this: maybe they have reacted to the change of philosophical discourse at their time. Or we can look at this in another way. Desire to engage in logical argument with opposing school and defend philosophy although unnecessary it is natural. As long as it is in reasonable limits it trains the mind and brings pleasure during reflection and debating itself. Well nevermind. And yes in letter of menoeceus epicurus states that (Quote) E…

Like Seneca in letters. Proper place of Lukian's relation to epicureanism is a secondary source and not what was proposed above - standard and point of reference for specific doctrine in epicurean philosophy. Lukian was eclectic freethinker. His views can be best described as skeptical cynicism or cynical skepticism. Many protagonists of his dialogues are named cyniskus or Diogenes if I remember correctly. Best example of his skepticism is dialogue Hermotimos where he uses several skeptical trop…

Cassius one more time. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You go down the shore, you fill a cup with water. It’s got no fish in it. Does that mean no fish in the ocean?

"Thus we need pleasure only when we are in pain caused by its absence; but when we are not in pain then we have no need of pleasure." Epicurus