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Nice summary, Godfrey . I would agree with all of your points. And I also agree that getting the distinction between desires and pleasure clear in one's mind is crucial. I particularly like your point about desires being potentially limitless while pleasure/pain each have a natural limit (the elimination of the other feeling: No pain = all pleasure simply because if one is filled **with** pleasure, there's no room for pain. It's the *filling up with pleasure* that's important, not the "removing …

Well, to play devil's advocate, we DO have to limit all desires in some sense. Eating food and drinking water are both natural and necessary but if we overeat or even drink too much water (hyponatremia), it's going to lead to pain. And yes, I'm using water as an example to be provocative

(Quote from Cassius) Excellent point!

(Quote from Cassius) True. There's no distinction, but... (Quote from Cicero) (Quote from Cicero) To my reading, both of those are solid descriptions of ataraxia and aponia, ie, katastematic pleasure. So, katastematic pleasure is mentioned but the distinction itself between katastematic and kinetic was not important enough to mention.

(Quote from Cassius) It was not a "nonstandard term" during Epicurus's lifetime or during the founding and early centuries when the philosophy of the Garden was popular and widespread.It doesn't have to be - nor should it be - the first thing that's talked about when introducing the philosophy to people.We need to have a response to the academics who DO use this term extensively. Because, as we know, people will say, "Didn't Epicurus say this katastematic pleasure was the be-all and end-all of h…

(Quote from Cassius) Um, Epicurus did the same thing in distinguishing desire and pleasure. So ... Just throwin' that out there. Pleasure is, by definition, good. Desires can be natural, unnatural, necessary, unnecessary, or empty. Desires are NOT all good by any means. They're of course connected. We have desires for pleasures. But pleasure is separate from desire. Eating is pleasurable. However, the desire *to eat* can come in many permutations, some necessary, some unnecessary, even though ea…

At the risk of self-horn-tooting, here's my translation and commentary on the desires from my Letter to Menoikeus. Apologies for the length. See the PDF for more: Translation: Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessar…

(Quote from reneliza) You are correct. Natural and Empty in Menoikeus. I don't think the Greek word for unnatural is ever used. For example: PD29 Τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαὶ <καὶ ἀναγκαῖαι· αἱ δὲ φυσικαὶ> καὶ οὐκ ἀναγκαῖαι, αἱ δὲ οὔτε φυσικαὶ οὔτε ἀναγκαῖαι ἀλλὰ παρὰ κενὴν δόξαν γινόμεναι. Don - Of the cravings, first there are those that are natural and required to live, then there are those that are natural but not required, and, finally, there are those that are neither natural nor requ…