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I don't believe you can read PD20 in isolation. You have to read it as it was most likely written, in context with the surrounding text. In fact, I took a look at the Arundel MS 531 to try and figure out where the breaks in the text were at least in this manuscript from 1450-1500: https://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/…ref=arundel_ms_531_fs001r (Flip to page f.177r (folio 177 reverse)) In line 9, there seems to be a specific gap right before what we call PD18: Οὐκ ἐπαύξεται... So, we start reading this …

(Quote from Cassius) Your comment "for a moment" is off the mark. It's not experiencing "the limit of pleasure" "for a moment" then going about your day. It's experiencing the limit of pleasure as part of your whole life, you experience life with this pleasure filling your mind and body. That's why ataraxia and aponia are important components of an Epicurean life. Once you are experiencing full pleasure without mental troubles or bodily pain, it doesn't matter if it lasts a moment and you die or…

(Quote from Cassius) First, the normal/average person would most likely be included in what Epicurus calls the "hoi polloi" "the many/the masses/the crowd", so their understanding of life - almost by definition - may not coincide with what Epicurus would call "correct belief." So their normal understanding may be beside the point. In fact, he says "The flesh assumes that the limits of joy are infinite." That's the "normal" understanding. Epicurus was there to provide medicine not validate someon…

Imma gonna let some others weigh in before I spout off again... Just in case anyone is waiting for my response to Cassius . So... Tag! You're it, y'all!

I am very intrigued by Godfrey 's Interpretation and as it's expanded on by others. Let's take a look at what pd19 actually says, because I think a case could be made for Godfrey 's novel (to me) take on it. That specific line says: Ὁ ἄπειρος χρόνος ἴσην ἔχει τὴν ἡδονὴν καὶ ὁ πεπερασμένος (χρόνος)... I've added the second χρόνος for clarity. So we're dealing with: Ὁ ἄπειρος χρόνος infinite time (khronos) καὶ ὁ πεπερασμένος (χρόνος) and finite (time) The infinite is the same word used to describe…

(Quote from Cassius) Actually, I think Godfrey has done a good job right there of what I might have said

Godfrey , I'm going to take a shot at paraphrasing my understanding of your interpretation. Please correct me if I'm wrong! Bounded, finite time is contained within infinite time. We can only experience finite time as mortal beings. Therefore, the only pleasure we can actually experience is finite no matter how we might desire infinite pleasures; so we need not (nor should not) concern ourselves with worrying about infinite time or infinite pleasures.Am I close?

Thanks for posting those excerpts. I think I'm in agreement with Dewitt in these, but, honestly, it's sometimes hard to tell with his convoluted, almost-Victorian prose style along with his superfluous Christian non sequiturs. I sometimes have an easier time parsing Ancient Greek than I do Dewitt!

(Quote from Cassius) Well, a broken clock is right twice a day. Okay, that was harsh, I'll admit that... But you already know I'm triggered by his Christian allusion hobby horse. Those take me right out of his argument with an eye-rolling "By Zeus, another @#$& Epicurean-inspired Bible verse!?? At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Dewitt wrote "John 11:35 clearly shows that Jesus was an Epicurean because..."

(Quote) See, that's my issue. The "Christian hymnology" citation is superfluous and wrong. Here's the source of that line that Dewitt is citing: https://allpoetry.com/He-Liveth-Long-Who-Liveth-Well That hymn seems to me to be the opposite of what Epicurus stood for. Bonar is saying "living well" is keeping your eye on heavenly rewards not the here and now in THIS life, the only one we have. (Quote) Yuck!! "The life above, when this is past, Is the ripe fruit of life below"?! That's certainly not…

(Quote from Kalosyni) Yes, i don't want to imply that there's not value in reading Dewitt 's magnum opus. Dewitt does provide some insightful, helpful, and refreshing insights. It's just his use of references devoid of context, Epicurean-inspired Christianity notions, and similar dross that irks me. Someone needs to do a "Jefferson Bible" job on "Epicurus and his Philosophy."

I'm glad Cassius can at my screeds against Dewitt above. He is well acquainted with my perspective at this point over these last few years on the forum. I do tend to soapbox sometimes.

(Quote from Cassius) I sincerely appreciate the kind words, even if I don't necessarily see myself in that way all the time. Thank you! (Quote from Cassius) Hey! Who're you calling "abnormal"!

(Quote from Cassius) I'll have to push back on that statement. Boredom comes from dissatisfaction not lack of variety. Sometimes people looking for variety are running from something - possibly even an emotional trauma. They try to fill a void with novelty. I have a real problem if we start using boredom as a reason for varying pleasures. (Note: I'm posting this from my previous post so people can respond to this topic without Cassius' and my DeWittean banter)

(Quote from DavidN) Oh, exactly. Somebody now needs to purge the "irrelevant" material out of DeWitt's book on Epicurus.

(Quote from Cassius) Oh my! I'm about to defend DeWitt everybody! Mark your calendars. It's true that the Principal Doctrines literally laid out the "basic doctrines" of the philosophy for Epicureans to study and memorize. But Epicurus was providing practical solutions and philosophical medicine to real people. I think he had to provide "a way to console us for loss of immortality (presumably as alleged by religious viewpoints)." I'm not sure of the word "console" but he had to provide an altern…

In reading this thread, I'm reminded of the TV show The Good Place. ***BIG SPOILER ALERT for anyone who hasn't seen the show and wants to experience it**" * * * You have been warned... The basic premise is that, after you die, there is a Good Place and a Bad Place. First few seasons, the bar has been raised so high, most everyone goes to the Bad Place. Then we find later that those in the Good Place are bored out of their minds and miserable. The main characters are given the opportunity to rema…

(Quote from Kalosyni) hedone "pleasure" τὴν ἡδονὴν (ten hedonen - accusative case)

I don't know if this will clarify or obfuscate matters, but I was inclined to parse the second phrase in PD19. ἐάν τις αὐτῆς τὰ πέρατα καταμετρήσῃ τῷ λογισμῷ. ἐάν = if Both τις and αὐτῆς are feminine singular which, to me, seems to refer back to τὴν ἡδονὴν (pleasure) from the previous phrase which is also feminine. τὰ πέρατα we've mentioned are "the limits" but, more precisely, defined as "end, limit, boundary" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/h…4.0057%3Aentry%3Dpe%2Fras In philosophy, a πέρας (sing…

It occurs to me that I've misinterpreted or mischaracterized the characters' motivation in The Good Place with respect to that way out of existence. Joshua , please feel free to weigh in The people in the Good Place still experienced desires for novel experiences, still feared "death" (even though they were already dead), etc. However, those who expressed their readiness to, let's say, dissolve into the cosmos, expressed it as being at peace. The others couldn't understand the person! But there …