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Ack. I think the article is pretty bad. She says the application of rationality must itself be enjoyable or no reason to do it-- untrue. If studying boring material for a test leads to passing a class and gaining access to a more interesting class, I would (and have) done it. That's basic EP, sometimes choosing a pain for greater pleasure. Self control reducing pain to others and the self? Basic misunderstanding that pain to others is painful to us (most of us), so it should not be listed separa…

Well that's more specific, narcotic flowers. Def no. I hate the feeling of opiates. I don't even take them after surgery. Even back then, you'd get habituation to opiates and then all you get is wanting but not liking. Addictive substances are miserable. The devil is in the details lol

Don If the awareness of choosing is essential to bliss, then the bliss pill must provide that too-- if anything at all is missing from total pleasure, then it's not a total bliss pill, by definition! If someone else's bliss is not yours, and it's marketed as total bliss for you, then it's false advertising! That would go into my own reasons not to take it, lol-- I would not be convinced there could be a pill that would give complete bliss to a wide variety of individuals. I don't think you unde…

Here's another analogy-- if our need for pleasure were like an infinitely large universe, complete pleasure could never happen for a human, not even for a second. We would always need more and more. But in contrast to his view of an unlimited universe, he taught that our capacity for pleasure does have a limit, the point at which all pain is removed and pleasure is full! So this is a good sort of limit to have. It doesn't reduce our pleasure, as if we need to moderate pleasure -- it makes pleasu…

Cassius -- of course, we can't really even have conversations and think without any reasoning at all. However, a strong appeal of this philosophy to me is that logic is _nowhere_ in the Canon. It is a supplemental tool _only_. Primarily used for explanation to others, but not as the fundamental basis. I know we have different opinions on prolepses, but it is going too far to assert that the basic conclusions of EP must include contributions from logic that are not already established as evidenc…

Don then maybe I misunderstood what you said about "teaching us limits"-- because he didn't use it that way. Cassius You've lost me 😂. Pleasure being maximized at the absence of pain is not a logic statement at all. It's just a description of observed experience. If he had not felt complete pleasure at least a few times when he couldn't detect any pain, he would have no grounds for such a statement. It would just be a hypothetical. I knew he was correct when I read it the first time because it …

Don you did say PD10 was about taking responsibility though-- but that's only in service of pleasure. So that would not be a reason to turn down a true bliss for you pill in an environment free of threats, if you believed it was as advertised. I saw an article a couple of weeks ago about some major developments in aging research. It might become possible to stop aging. That wouldn't prevent death from injury, infection and so on, but it would increase longevity dramatically and reduce age relat…

Logic can never give you primary information about reality, Cassius . Logic is not _in_ the Canon but supplemental. Epicurus knew there were 2 basic feelings, pleasure and pain, because he felt them. Not from logic!

Don in the context of everything Epicurus said, he did not mean whatsoever to limit their desire for pleasure to something less than total bliss. That's why I wrote about what he was really talking about. You said you agreed, but it doesn't sound like you do. He wants for them to understand that they can actually achieve complete pleasure, instead of thinking it is infinite, requires infinite desires, and can never be experienced. He means it differently than how we would mean it today. Teachin…

Don -- use the whole context of the philosophy. Epicurus never places anything greater than pleasure. He is saying we can actually experience total-- perfect-- pleasure. That it's not abstract. The profligates are not going far enough! They are leaving some of their pleasure on the table. It is hard for people today to drop the middle path ideas they've been inculcated with. EP is not a middle path. It's a path of the most extreme, total pleasure, experienced by humans in reality. Epicurus coul…

Y'all is definitely one of my favorites words 😂. Although my parents were from Alabama, I was born in CA and didn't live here until age 7. So I initially used "you guys" but quickly adopted y'all... which, interestingly, feels much more inclusive of me as a woman. I know some people roll their eyes at objections to the universal male in language... but just imagine if someone said "you gals" and told you gals means everyone. If that would sound weird, then it gives you a hint of my feeling 😂. Ju…