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(Quote from EricR) My understanding of the basis of justice is "to neither harm nor be harmed." This is the yardstick of determining an action is just or not.

(Quote from EricR) Sorry, realized I cut that quote off. The innate idea of the "divine nature" is that it is "blessed" (μακαριος) and "incorruptible" (άφθαρτος). That's it. To assign any other characteristics goes beyond the anticipation from my readings.

(Quote from EricR) I completely understand where you're coming from. However, the "blank slate" idea, while a popular and long-standing theory, has been well debunked. There is a lot of fascinating research on babies and toddlers. (Quote from EricR) Excellent observation! This sense - anticipation - of "justice" or "fairness" has been observed in monkeys as well. I think I've posted elsewhere on there forum on this, but the one that comes to mind is the experiment where two monkeys are given a t…

Here's that full TED Talk: youtu.be/PnnSjdpoBVw Be sure to watch to the end for an explanation of chimps refusing the grape until the other one gets one, too!

(Quote from Cassius) Agreed. We are born humans, animals, and parts of the natural world. I'll have more to respond to your other points later, Cassius .

(Quote from Cassius) Hmmm. The anticipations aren't false. It's the popular opinions of the gods that Epicurus takes issue with in the Letter: (Quote) More later.

(Quote from EricR) I would agree with that. That seems well stated. That's where I'm uneasy about Cassius maintaining the anticipations are wrong or can be wrong, if I'm reading him correctly. My reading of Epicurus is that the senses are an accurate reflection of reality. They are "true." It's our opinions and beliefs branching off from our canonical faculties that are the problem and not the Canon itself. I think it's the same or similar with the anticipations (as implied by that quote from th…

I have been chomping at the proverbial bit all day to respond to this thread. It seems to me some things are getting conflated here, specifically Canonics and Ethics. The Canon consists of three sources: "In The Canon Epicurus affirms that our (1) sensations and (2) preconceptions and our (3) feelings are the standards of truth" (Diogenes Laertius, X.31) Sensations αἴσθησις are the sense-perceptions.Preconceptions/Anticipations are the infamous prolepses προλήψειςFeelings πάθη are pleasure and p…

(Quote from Cassius) We agree but it's irrelevant. The feeling of pleasure is the canonical faculty at work. We feel pleasure, then ask why that was pleasurable. Feeling, then reason. The action or thought or recollection that elicits a pleasurable feeling is then chosen or rejected to be engaged in again or not on the basis of that feeling. The feeling -- to be modern -- is a reflex response to a stimulus. Those endorphins are the same chemical reaction for all humans. We feel the pleasure befo…

(Quote from Cassius) Sure. But the pleasure response itself is the same. I'm not concerned at that initial point what causes it. Some people will be more sensitive than others, sure, more acutely aware of what their body is trying to tell them. Humans can even train themselves to disregard pain, for example. But the pleasure itself is the guide. Epicurus didn't posit different *feelings* - the "feelings" are two: pain and pleasure. Or are you referring to the katastematic and kinetic pleasures? …

Oh! I think I see where we're talking past each other now. I agree someone else's pleasure response is not a valid premise upon which to base MY choices and rejections. If spinach doesn't give YOU pleasure, your body is telling you to avoid it - for now at least. It might be mental pain (some childhood memory affixed to spinach gives you pain) or biological pain (digestive issues?). You can always try again later *IF* you want to. Maybe you've heard it's healthy and you're willing to experience …

(Quote from Don) That being said, Epicurus can still say that he doesn't encourage people to choose a "profligate" lifestyle of drinking bouts, etc. because - as a general rule - that leads to pain, sickness, ill health, loss of friends, insecurity, etc. by observation over time of many situations. BUT he's not going to forbid your choice to do that unless you would have tried to do it in the Garden and upset the community of friends within HIS home. He can make a choice that your behavior cause…

I still think Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett's work is an interesting possible modern interpretation of the anticipations. I think Godfrey mentioned her in this thread. If suggest taking a look at that discussion elsewhere on the forum.

(Quote from Cassius) The on/off switch? Just a reminder to not let our metaphors run away with our philosophy. (I know I'm guilty of this sometimes! Shoehorning a metaphor to fit the philosophy probably does a disservice to both).

(Quote from Cassius) That is an excellent point to remember. Thanks for that!