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Thank you for starting this thread and thanks for the text references. This is a huge area of interest for most people and we really need to explore this.

At some point we need to bring in the specific text material from Lucretius. Also, in terms of marriage in Epicurus' own context, we need to be sure we keep grounded in Epicurus' will, in which he provided for the marriage of Metrodorus' daughter. As for "Sweet" being before your generation, that's one of the burdens of being old like I am. I remember very clearly that song playing on the radio when it first came out!

(Quote from Kalosyni) This is the reasoning I would use to come to a conclusion as to what Epicurus would most likely have endorsed at the end of his life (meaning in his most mature teaching). The way to solve this puzzle or any other puzzle is the hedonic calculus. Every question is decided by VS71. "Every desire must be confronted by this question: What will happen to me if the object of my desire is accomplished, and what if it is not?" Is the topic sex, or is it "romantic love," or is it ma…

Here is the conclusion of the BRENNAN article which I will also attach here (sorry that this clip does not pick up the greek, so I will post a picture too): (Quote) In conclusion on this article, even though it is closer to my view, I think that it goes to far to say in English that Epicurus was likely to have been "on record as advising, in general, against marriage and childrearing." I think the most likely-to-be-accurate statement would be that Epicurus was: ""on record as advising, in genera…

And I think there Matt you are introducing the very difficult but very important issue of cultural and gender rules and norms that vary greatly over time. I don't need to be more specific than to note that there is fierce disagreement over whether there is a single correct attitude toward these topics -- whether our current societal norms in 2022 in the West are better or worse than those of 200 BC Athens. We can debate those issues "til kingdom come" and never arrive at a consensus solution. Bu…

(Quote from Don) I wasn't sure which fragment you were going to cite, Don, when I started reading your post, so I was getting ready to pull the trigger on another "always be prudent about pulling quotes out of context post" ---- But this particular fragment is so utterly and broadly and obviously consistent with the rest of the philosophy, and seems to me to be so strongly compelled by the epistemology and the ethics and the physics all at the same time, that I think it really is among those tha…

(Quote from Matt) That is why I think it is a good analogy to consider what Epicurus was warning about here to be akin to "intoxication." If Lucretius' section on this topic is reflective of the mature Epicurean position, and I think that it very likely is, then it seems to me that Lucretius is making clear that the benefits of these topics can be achieved in a prudent way without getting burned. And that's very similar to the observation that the benefits of alcohol can be enjoyed by most peopl…

Yes thanks again to Kalosyni for starting the thread. This will prove to be the raw material for what will eventually be a recorded "roundtable" or similar media presentation on the subject at some point.

(Quote from Kalosyni) I presume that's a reference to courtesans who are not usually available to day. But as for the rest of what Lucretius is saying I think that what he is saying is foundational and takes precedence even before modern psychology, all of which has to be conformed to correct philosophy , rather than the other way around. That's because In my humble view modern psychology is as frequently or more a mess (with camps saying very opposite things) than modern philosophy.

I await with great anticipation the comments of others here and I particularly want to see comments on this: (Quote from Kalosyni)

Those are great issues to discuss Smoothiekiwi. One of them is the question of "divorce" vs "til death to us part." I don't know if anyone here would advocate in favor of abolition of divorce, so we're probably talking in the context that "divorce" is at least a partial answer to your concerns. Then there are the issues of (1) children, which I think most people (apparently not including Plato!) would agree are best raised in a stable family. (2) and protection and financial stability of women, …

(Quote from Kalosyni) That sounds right to me, and it reminds me of something Thomas Jefferson is quoted to have said too (if I can remember it I will post it!)

In regard to what Kalosyni's comment on always looking for new restaurants being an indicator of marriage failure (kind of funny even to say that) here is what I remembered from Jefferson (Letter to Peter Carr - August 10 1787) Not the same thing, but probably related: (Quote)

I am beginning to focus in on "always wants to go to new restaurants" as really good litmus test of something. Not sure exactly what, but a really good test

I think that you two are probably not so far from each other. It's probably true that in some significant number of cases an unhappy marriage can be hidden from the children so that they are not as affected as they would be by divorce. I would stress "sometimes" and that we have another situation where it depends on details and "always" isn't going to apply.

Gosh I apologize for my poor spelling (dress instead of stress). It's easy to lower ones standards when using telephones to type.

Thank you for this post and all you have done to start this thread on Valentine's Day!