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Valentine's Day is one month away...how do we make sense of romance and love within the "Epicurean worldview". Is romantic love in direct opposition of the wisdom of free-will? (Quote) Diogenes Laertius : Book 10, Sections 84-154 "They do not think that the wise man will ever be in love, nor that he will be anxious about his burial, nor that love is a passion inspired by the gods, as Diogenes says in his twelfth book. They also assert that he will be indifferent to the study of oratory. Intercou…

Thank you Don for sharing your "Epicurean Sage" translations...very helpful to read. So...we could do an intellectual assessment of the historical context of male/female (or even male/male) relationships back in Epicurus' time...because it's quite fascinating how different things were, for people in ancient Greece and ancient Rome. But for now maybe let's stay with love and romance in modern times... Here is an interesting song by a band called "Sweet" that I came across just last year (this son…

(Quote from Cassius) That in itself doesn't prove any position on marriage. It was just the prudent and compassionate thing to do, because back then all respectable women were married...all unmarried women would have been either a courtesan or a prostitute. But for men, they could live unmarried and not be stigmatized. It seems that the only way to solve this puzzle for modern times, is to use a hedonic calculus. But then how do you determine the outcome with regard to pleasure and pain? This si…

(Quote from Don) Reading further, the author of that article concludes that the traditional translation is the right one: (Quote)

Examining the meaning of: "Sex is never beneficial, and you are lucky if it doesn't actually harm you." From a modern understanding...what kind of "harm" are we talking about now, in our times? Without birth control and condom use, sex can lead to pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases - so if you want to avoid those harms you must be scrupulous in your birth control and STD protection methods. And also more importantly, from sex, some emotional consequences will be felt...which can become c…

Here is a beautiful Leonard Cohan song about life-long marriage, and this would illustrate "secure attachment" style. m.youtube.com/watch?v=NGorjBVag0I Attachment theory is interesting, in that it points to why some marriages last and go more smoothly than others. According to attachment theory, a person’s early relationships in life with mother/caregiver can affect their romantic relationships later on. The four attachment styles are: 1) secure 2) anxious-preoccupied 3) dismissive-avoidant 4) f…

Sharing a common worldview could be an important compatibility factor in maintaining a happy romantic relationship. This might explain why some couples divorce after the children are grown and move out of the house. Now thinking...if one person holds an "Epicurean" worldview and the other does not, the relationship could still function but might not be as deep or connected. The drives and choices one makes come from one's worldview. Also, both short-term and long-term goals come out of one's wor…

In light of the Epicurean goal of a pleasurable life...here are some further ideas about romantic relationships, since a well functioning intimate relationship leads to more enjoyment in life. Here is an interesting article about the importance of common interests in long-term relationships. And so putting in time toward cultivating fun shared activities would be a good investment toward the well-being of a relationship. (Quote) https://www.psychologytoday.co…nterests-in-relationships

Valentine's Day is coming up soon. The origin may go back as far as the Roman festival of Lupercalia, which was later replaced by the Christian day honoring the martyr Saint Valentine. (Quote) (Quote) Regarding love and romantic relationships, there is not much to go on within Epicureanism. In De rerum Natura Lucretius (Book 4, 1030) mentions the energies which arise in the body, and then further goes on speak of the dangers of pursuing romance with the wandering Venus' -- the courtesans with wh…

(Quote from Joshua) Suddenly I am wondering if Lucretius was mis-translated...and my idea is likely totally unrelated to what you had intended. I am off now to frolick in the Oregon sunshine, a rare treat. More tomorrow on the "Stages of Romantic Love".

(Quote from Cassius) Yes, very true, and so it comes down everyone must choose for themselves which makes the most reasonable sense. Lately there is the meme within psychology of "science-based" therapies. But we must remember that science itself never holds a final or absolute answer. (Quote from Cassius) I was referring to Lucretius Book 4, in which men are wooing courtesans (since they were not prostitutes, but were like a mistress that was supported with gifts and other economic requirements…

As an Epicurean, here is what NOT to do: (Quote) This may lead to marriage but may not lead to long-term compatibility...and would say that this would be very Anti-Epicurean, since it relies on "fate"...but if you don't properly do a "hedonic calculus" regarding compatibility, then it will lead to unhappiness later after the romance "wears off". I have read that one of the most common ways that couples meet is through friends and family, and that would also help screen out incompatible people im…

Valentine's Day is all about celebrating love. Here is an excerpt on the first stage of love, and this is just one approach to the idea of stages within a relationship: (Quote) And here is a good one on 7 stages: https://www.lovingatyourbest.com/blog/7-stages-of-marriage

(Quote from smoothiekiwi) As far as security, there is also long-term committed co-habitation, as there are some people who do stay together for many years without being legally married (but this may be a low number). In any long-term relationship there is the main benefit of sexuality -- especially during the ages of 30's and 40's...married people have more sex (unless they are in an unhappy marriage). Married people also tend to do better financially when both are adequately employed and they …

(Quote from Cassius) The pain that is taken on should be in service to long-term pleasure...so if marriage over-all turns out to be 50/50, then it is a tough call. Having been married I would say that the pleasure was high in the early years, and much lower in the later years. The reason that I divorced was because it at times became unbearable with no hope for reconciling the irreconcilable differences. I begin to think that marriage is going to be difficult unless both people possess certain c…

(Quote from smoothiekiwi) Okay...then not so much as possessing the qualities perfectly, but rather at some level, and also able to improve, otherwise marriage will be a difficult experience and end up in divorce. Also, I read this somewhere in the past...people who have a drive for extreme novelty...they make bad marriage partners. You'll be able to judge this trait in the way that people enjoy eating because they will be the ones who are continually seeking out new restuarants to try...so even…

(Quote from smoothiekiwi) The question of...how do you know if someone will make a good life partner? There are certain personality traits that lead to better outcomes in marriage...conscientiousness and agreeableness: (Quote) And the personality trait of neuroticism is negatively correlated with marriage satisfaction: (Quote) Should you stay with your partner or leave them to find someone better? There is no reason to stay in a bad relationship unless you already have children. Especially if th…

(Quote from Cassius) More specifically the personality trait of extoversion and "adventurism": (Quote)

Perhaps it is a litmus test for extravagant tastes that are never satisfied. Vatican Sayings: 68. Nothing is enough to one for whom enough is very little. 69. The ingratitude of the soul makes a creature greedy for endless variation in its way of life.

(Quote from smoothiekiwi) Yes I agree. If it sounded as if I thought differently, then it was probably due to my poor writing skills which made it confusing, and apologize for that. Divorce would most likely be best in cases of physical or mental abuse, substance abuse or addiction, and anger management issues. If these aren't present, and one has children, then staying together may be okay. (Quote from Cassius) I have a old out-of-state friend, who a while back, told me that he is staying in a …